Duke Singen

2 times the same organization

I have a question; can u add an organization at two places on this page? Example: the Rot Hide Gnolls are placed under the gnoll tribe part, but theyr are also a part of the sqourge, can i add them under both? Aedror42 (talk) 18:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe no. So the question is: Are the Rot Hide Gnolls more Scourge than Gnoll, or the contrary?

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 18:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

They are Scourge. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

the "s"

I removed some "s" in order to fit to this:

• If the Chieftains are listed in order of time => "Chieftain:"
• If the Chieftains are working coinjoinly => "Chieftains:"

Also apply to every over titles we used.

Like it ?

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 12:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that sounds like a great idea, 'cause that helps when keeping track on the leaders. Aedror42 (talk) 12:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

†

How about a dagger (†) for the deceased leader of an Organization? (only the lore-confirmed ones)

Like:

• Church of the Holy Light - Archbishop: Alonsus Faol†, Benedictus
• Clerics of Northshire - Archbishop: Alonsus Faol †
• Warsong clan - Chieftain: Grom Hellscream †, Garrosh Hellscream
• Wildhammer clan - Chieftain: Khardros†, Kurdran, Maz Drachrip, Falstad

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 11:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, cuase then it'll be easier to see who is the current leader and such :p Aedror42 (talk) 15:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Ships?

I can see that some ships were added on the list of organizations, but i don't think we can call those ships for organizations. Aedror42 (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I had a doubt, can a Crew consider itself an organisation? brotherhood and all that crap.

But that's maybe going too far

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 21:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah think that it's going to far... lets just stick to what we are sure can be called organizations.

Aedror42 (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

If it was a group in lore then it would count like the "Kul Tiras Third Fleet" I would think. Similiar to how the "7th Legion" is a group. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Or Stormwind's FIRST Fleet :X Big, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 19:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

That is a guild. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Organization?

Many of these don't look to me to be organizations.

1. Anvilar clan does not have a source or article and Modimus Anvilmar was part of the Ironforge clan anyway.
2. Hammersmith clan does not have a source or article.
3. Lordaeron remnants is not a proper name.
4. Sister of steel is a class in the RPG.
5. Wizard's Sanctum is a "building" that houses the "Academy of Arcane Arts and Sciences".
6. Frostwolf clan is multi-race?
7. Outcasts does not have any source.
8. Sect of the Dragons is the name of a religion like "geomancy" or "druidism" and not like "Cult of the Damned" or "Church of the Holy Light".
9. Shadowforge citiziens is not spelled correctly and is not an organization just like citizens of other settlements do not automatically make them a organization.
10. Boiling Spirits does not have a source or article.
11. Enraged Tempests does not have a source or article.
12. Elemental Lord is a title.
13. Raging Boilers does not have a source.
14. Outland colossi does not have a source and there are many colossi "leaders" on Outland not just Behemothon and Goliathon.
15. Dolomite Giant is a mob.
16. Crystalline Ice Giant is a mob.
17. Iron giant is a race.
18. Molten giant is a race.
19. Storm giant is a race.
20. Nesingwary Base Camp is a location.
21. Arkkoran tribe does not exist as they are part of a multi-race group called Arkkoran.
22. Temple of Ahn'Qiraj garnison is not spelled correctly and does not have a source or article.
23. Death knights of Acherus is not a proper name.
24. Void has no source or article.
25. Sifreldar is a location.
26. Iron vrykul is a race.
27. Dun Morogh Wendigo is a mob.

Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Hjalmar Anvilmar is described has "Last patriarch of the Anvilmars", that would make them a clan/organization
2. Hammersmith removed
3. Lordaeron remnants article is flagged for a check, but still it exists
4. Sister of steel states "The sisters of steel are just such a group of female blacksmiths."
5. Agreed.
6. Visit them in Alterac, you'll find that they opened to Tauren and other races.
7. Agreed, the Centaur Pariah never mentions that a group follow him.
8. I fail to see why/how it is differen from the Cult of the Damned or the Church of Holy Light.
9. Agreed.
10. The quest related to them say they are a group lead by Churn.
11. Same thing as Boiling Spirits.
12. A tittle, but also the group of 4 under command of the Old Gods.
13. Same thing as Boiling Spirits.
14. Only the ones tagged "King" are listed.
15. Dolomite Giants act toghether and are not listed under any faction (except that they aid the earthen).
16. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.
17. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.
18. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.
19. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.
20. So are the Nesingwary Safari and Nesingwary's Expedition, but we have no name/article for the hunting team they are.
21. Arkkoran, we put "tribe" to have all the listed organizations of a race have "the same format".
22. How would you name the Qiraji group dwelling in AQ?
23. Death knights of Acherus is the name used by the Lich King and Darion Mograine all along of the death kinght starting zone. How is it not a proper name?
24. Removed.
25. Sifreldar is a group of female frost vrykul opposed to the group of Hyldnir.
26. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.
27. Same thing as Dolomite Giant.

Note that for some of the organizations, it list to a place or a mob, that's a placeholder while we create a proper article.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1. So the Ironforge clan became the Anvilmar clan? I thought Modimus Anvilmar was the leader of the Ironforge clan which ruled the Bronzebeard, Wildhammer, and Dark Iron clans?
2. Okay
3. Okay
4. I guess? I thought they were just a class.
5. Okay
6. Their article says orc clan.
7. Okay
8. Well to me it is more like the "Ancients of the Night Elves" religion versus those other two which are organizations also. Those other two are actually groups with a hiearchy, leaders, an entry in the RPG as organizations, etc. Sect of the Dragons says it is just a faith, not an organization with a headquarters, hiearchy, etc.
9. Okay
10. If a quest says that then okay. The group's name is not known though and Boiling Spirit is only one mob.
11. If a quest says that then okay. The group's name is not known though and Enraged Tempest is only one mob.
12. I guess?
13. If a quest says that then okay. The group's name is not known though and Raging Boiler is only one mob.
14. "Outland colossi" though is just a description like "Outland makrura".
15. Dolomite Giants is just one mob though. If we made an organization out of them then every mob would be an organization.
16. Crystalline Ice Giant is just one mob though, the other being called Ravaged Crystalline Ice Giant. If we made an organization out of them then every mob would be an organization.
17. Iron giant is a race like I said earlier.
18. Molten giant is a race like I said earlier.
19. Storm giant is a race like I said earlier.
20. I guess? Yet, Nesingwary Safari has the name in a few mobs' title in Nagrand and Nesingwary's Expedition is an expedition group.
21. I guess?
22. I don't know what their name is or if they have a name but I don't think it is "Temple of Ahn'Qiraj garnison".
23. If it was a proper name wouldn't it be spelled "Death Knights of Acherus"? For instance, "Order of the Knights of the Silver Hand" is not spelled "Order of the knights of the Silver Hand".
24. Okay
25. Sifreldar Village does not mention anything about a group called "Sifreldar" though.
26. Iron vrykul is a race like I said earlier.
27. "Dun Morogh Wendigo" does not even have one mob named that. The closest is Wendigo and Young Wendigo.

Those are my replies. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Ironforge clan leaded Bronzebeard, Wildhammer and Dark Iron, but after the fall, what happened? Not source anywhere except that mention "Last patriarch of the Anvilmars", inducing that they may have become an "Anvilmar clan".

6. The infobox says so yes, but look at the Members sub-part.

15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 26. This is (imo) the concept of Kvaldir clan on which we had a word already.

20. That makes one organization per expedition/expansion.

22. I renamed them Temple of Ahn'Qiraj Qiraji, since in fact they only live in it.

23. "Death knight of Acherus" is said so by Darion Mograine, no correction from the person who quoted him. See Darion Mograine#At Battle for Light's Hope Chapel.

25. Do you then contest Valkyrion as a gruop too?

27. "Dun Morogh Wendigo" is a bit like the Elwynn kobolds on which we are currently discussing.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 12:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1. That is what I was pointing out. Did they eventually become the "Anvilmar clan"? Also, "Last patriarch of the Anvilmars" does not exactly mean it has to be a clan. It could mean he was the last of his family. Not every family is a clan or else there would be a clan for every named dwarf.

6. I guess so.

15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 26. Okay, if all those are races are also clans, I guess they would be organizations.

20. Except there are only two leaders. Correct me if I am wrong, but the son heads the Stranglethorn Vale group and the father is found in both Nagrand and Sholozar Basin but moved from Nagrand to Sholazar Basin "lore wise".

22. Actually, they are not the only ones who live in it, but okay.

23. I guess.

25. Where does it say Valkyrion is a group? I have heard of the "Val'kyr race" but not the Valkyrion organization.

27. Except in the "Elwynn kobolds" case there a lot of mobs and they have sort of like titles/jobs after their names and in the "Dun Morogh wendigo" case I only see two mobs: One called "Wendigo" and the other "Young Wendigo".

Rolandius (talk - contr) 12:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup

I am going to clean up this article if no one else wants to. One mob, a village, etc. does not make up an organization the way, I think, users see an organization. Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you talk before doing this?

Many thing you removed are organizations

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I did talk about it above. Some of them are still on here. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

You consider some as non-organizations, such as the Molten Giants lead by Golemagg for Ragnaros. I think you're wrong, but my opinion does not make it all, bring people on this talk page, until there is only both of us here, let it like it is.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I will leave it as is. I just don't think villages, single mobs, races, etc. are all going to be organizations as we know them in Warcraft. I also don't understand why it is so easy to just add anything but then when trying to cleanup Gourra reverts it all instead of looking at what is added also. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Because you remove without a talk, choosing that you are right.

Not to mention the fact that you got him on your back because of your "past activities".

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:57, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I have been on here awhile. I am pretty sure, through my experiences and what admins have even told me, that not all of these are organizations. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

Concerning the recent edits, that might have been nice to discuss them before.

I (personnaly) have always seen this article as a full list of the organizations we can find in the Warcraft Universe, so why:

• resume Tauren as a link to Tauren Tribes and only one clan; when the Dwarves are almost fully listed
• some clans that were removed are worth to be listed here first (Frostwolf for exemple).

And, there is no "New Horde", this has already been discussed and explained before: this is one Horde at another stage of its existence.

Imo, we have lost concistency, we should revert this, and discuss the form in a sandbox before maiming this article.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 14:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well i'll try to explain

• Botched editing, it was a big list, i have no problems with readding them like the dwarven examples

The new horde i just called it to differentiate from the Dark horde and the fel horde,but i'll just post repost it as the hosrde better idea.

There is consistency, no need to revert it now, tell me your problems case by case and i'll solve them at the first oppurtunity--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Also there are probably a lot of typos my keyboard is getting knackered and has a over-sensitive S button--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:59, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Why remove all Tauren clans, add a link to Tauren Tribes and leave only one clan; when the Dwarves are almost fully listed?

Why remove the Independant section? This make you duplicate all the horde/alliance organizations

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 15:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Like i said Botched editing, it happens when there is a huge amount of information, i'm going to fix that in 2 hours(it was a big list and i need some rest and i have driving classes), you're free to fix anything that you see has a problem would really help too.

What missing to be done:

• Organize alphabeticly
• Correct typos
• Add missing from list(a lot of them need to be added that weren't on the older list)
• Discuss problems

That's a problem to fix too and i'm going to fix them.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Just don't revert while i'm gone, please.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:19, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, might be a good improvement or not, but on such a big work you should have made it in a sandbox before.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 15:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I didn't remember that i could do a sandbox first, but at least coobra liked the alliance and horde section that i did yesterday--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:31, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it'd be more reasonable if we revert it to the original state, then you can discuss and edit on a sandbox (Organization/sandbox) to what you think it should be. It doesn't look good when you edit it piece-by-piece - come up with a draft first, and we'll go from there. --g0urra[T҂C] 15:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Like i said, it's completed, now it's just correcting the typos, organize alphabetcly and put the organizations that are missing(that both were and weren't on the old list),and discussion--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I also see he asked you to ask other people xD

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 15:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes and i was going too, after i finish, but i'm going to have driving classes so i was planning to do it after those.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Did the copy for you.

For what it's worth for now, I prefer it on the race, but I am open to discussion ;)

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 15:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks then just do a list of every problem you see(if you see a typo just correct it please), and i'll see what i can do when i return.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Tweaks aside, it should be agreed by the people who maintained the original "Organization" article that the overall idea behind the new layout is a good idea.--SWM2448 17:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well yes i should say what it is

Instead of being by race it's organized by sovereignty or jurisdiction, mostly because the race idea doesn't work because the faction will tend to diversify their races, and still are part of a nation, which will separate organizations under nations(examples: SI:7 is a stormwind organization with different races, the sentinel army is the main army of darnassus and has both night elf and worgen),

And allows to establish something akin of a pecking order in the article itself without over complicating(example:the Reliqary is a organization inside/under the jurisdiction/part of the sovereign Kingdom of Quel'thalas which is part of the horde),

The reason why i divided the independent section is because i think we should use a neutral standpoint from lore and not based on gameplay mechanics(alliance vs horde vs NPC), and treat them like we treat the alliance and the horde, it also makes it significantly easier to learn about organizations this way.

I also already added the clans it missed and corrected all the typos i could see.--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I also though of creating a section called Historical Organizations, for organizations that have been disbanded or exterminated.--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• I really dislike the formulation: "Current Dragon Queen", "Current Spellweaver, "Current Timeless one", "Current Dreamer", "Current Life-binder"; because those are titles given to each dragon aspect, but since there has been only one of each since the begining, we cannot assume that this would apply to the next aspect.
• Daakara is not the leader of the Amani Empire, only the ruler of Zul'Aman

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 19:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

• I used those titles because they are unique to each aspect, altrough i could put Current Red/Blue/Green/Bronze/Black Aspect, trough i think from what i understand blizzard calls the black dragon aspect the earthwarder(in that thing with thrall being set up for a future earthwarder), however the title of dragon queen is given to her by the titans, because she's supposed to rule over the 5 dragonflights.
• hmm okay that's harder to solve..., i'll substitute the term amani empire with zul'aman since the Amani empire has been destroyed says the article, if i ever end making a historical organizations section i would put that in.--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually i will use the term kingdom of zul'aman since the article calls it that, do you have any more problems?--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:40, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well at least the formula "Red/Blue/Green/Bronze/Black Aspect" is clear, and used by Blizzard. (Metzen "Kalecgos will be the new Blue Aspect")

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 19:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Ok then i'll change the aspect thing, but not the dragon queen, since it's a specific title, that represents her leadership of all dragonflights, however if Kalecgos will ever be called the spellweaver i'll change to other formula--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Any more problems?--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I still have a problem with the global form.

I don't think Nesingwary is to be considered as a "hunter faction"

The Ashen Verdict is more a Battle force against the LIch King than a Blacksmith union imo

Many dead/not dead to check/uncheck

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 21:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Which problems in the global form? i think i might be able to solve some of them.

Nesingwary is in the hunter faction because they are a independent faction of hunters, like the cenarion circle is a independent faction of druids

The Ashen Verdict is a select group of the most talented craftsmen in the Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade.

Well it was almost entirely transferred from the older list, so any problems with that we're transfered--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Organization/sandbox is better than the current version. Current version is simply wrong, because we repeat headers (races) and we can't classify multiracial organizations properly. A hierarchy is the way to go, imo.

As for stuff like "Kingdom of Stormwind", I'd put it as "Stormwind, kingdom", and in simple cases, I wouldn't put the type if it isn't very needed.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to do with how we do officially in real life (wiki example:Kingdom of Spain, Portuguese Republic, State of Qatar), so we don't confuse with either the capital or the territory, but your way works too and i have no problems with.--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)