The Lich King's head

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==Source==

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Who or what is in the Lich King's head? The lore seems inconsistent, and it is bugging me. This should probably be added to the main [[Lich King]] article once this is sorted out... perhaps at [[Arthas#Lich_King_of_the_Scourge]].--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 03:08, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

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==External links==

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=== Information ===

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[[Category:World of Warcraft mail legs items]]

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* In Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, the Lich King is the altered spirit of Ner'zhul.

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[[Category:World of Warcraft poor items]]

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* In Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, the Lich King consists of Ner'zhul merged with Arthas Menethil into a single entity.

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* In Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, the Lich King consists of Ner'zhul, a small boy (later revealed to be Matthias Lehner), and Arthas Menethil in Nordic (vrykul?) garb.

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* Arthas kills both Ner'zhul and Matthias Lehner, making him the dominant personality within the Lich King, but without any good in him.

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* Arthas physically removed his heart and what is left of Matthias Lehner along with it, and Arthas' heart is later destroyed.

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* Uther's ghost says that "Arthas" still exists within "the Lich King", and is holding the Lich King back. Why there is still good in him is unexplained.

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* Arthas is killed, and the good part of him is freed. The Lich King still exists inside the helmet.

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* Bolvar merges with the Lich King.

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* At BlizzCon 2010, Metzen claims that "Ner'zhul is done."

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=== Conclusions and Speculation ===

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* There seems to be a third entity, "The Lich King" existing inside Arthas' body. It likely came about when Arthas merged with Ner'zhul. Arthas: Rise of the Lich King implied that it was Ner'zhul, Arthas' good side, and Arthas' bad side, and that may still be true.

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* The good part of Arthas died thrice (twice if the first time was symbolic of the removal of the heart).

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* Ner'zhul died in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.

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* "The Lich King" still exists, and is now within Bolvar.

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* Conspiracy time: Uther the Lightbringer and Terenas Menethil II were lying in some way.

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* Conspiracy time: The second Matthias Lehner was actually Yogg-Saron. That would explain how the heart was evil and Matthias Lehner was (apparently) good at the same time, but would not explain why the heart needed to be removed.

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=== Comments ===

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:Ner'zhul may or may not actually be dead, depending on how literally that scene is meant to be taken. It seemed very metaphorical and symbolic to me, and could simply have been Arthas mentally suppressing Ner'zhul, leading to him still being a part of the Lich King even after Bolvar takes control. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 03:17, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

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:Honestly? I think Blizz just lost track of all these little bits and pieces and just kept trying to rewrite the lore from scratch, as a result we end up with the tangled mess which we have today. Personally, I like the idea that Ner'zhul is still alive (cause he is one of the greatest Orc characters EVER). Realisticly, the Lich King, was always Ner'zhul, just with his body destroyed (slowly and painfully) and his shamanistic powers, backed by deominc taint, refocused on necromancy. A powerful being trapped within ice from the nether, sitting atop the roof of the world, how could anyone just take that role? It's not a role, it is the soul of Ner'zhul and all his power. So yeah, my vote is for Arthas wasn't the champion Ner'zhul thought he would be, so he sat back and let Arthas get himself killed so a new champion could be taken. I'm also betting Bolvar wasn't his first choice either, pretty sure he would have loved to be able to dual-wield Froustmourne AND The Ashbringer, but Bolvar discovered the plan, he saved Tirion and Azeroth with his sacrafice and shall always be remembered for it. :) Ok, i'ma shut up now :P [[Image:Pokeball.jpg]] [[User:Max Krist|Max Krist]] ([[User talk:Max Krist|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Max Krist|contribs]]) 09:29, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

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::Best I can tell is that the "evil" in the Lich King was always Ner'zhul and never Arthas, him being the part of the entity preventing the Scourge from overrunning Azeroth. Remember that Kil'jaedan ripped his physical being asunder leaving only his spirit in the armor. Thus Ner'zhul had no true "life" left and you can't kill that which has no life. HA![[User:AhotahThunderhorn|AhotahThunderhorn]] ([[User talk:AhotahThunderhorn|talk]]) 20:43, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

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::Oh and one more thing, Bolvar may very well have lost all his righteousness after the whole dragonfire and torture stuff and thus MORE vulnerable to the corruption of the vengeful Ner'zhul than Arthas ever was. Let's not forget the whole time he was a pawn to a certain [[Onyxia | dragon]] so what does that say about his willpower? In other words, Arthas may turn out to have been a "nicer" Lich King than what Bolvar is going to be.[[User:AhotahThunderhorn|AhotahThunderhorn]] ([[User talk:AhotahThunderhorn|talk]]) 20:50, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

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::: Cannot Chris Metzen give us a brief summary of what the hell actually happened. So we can move on with life! xD amagawd... --[[User:Mirdamor|Mirdamor]] ([[User talk:Mirdamor|talk]]) 15:43, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

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===Another Interpretation===

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I disagree with the conclusion that "The Lich King" is an entity distinct from Ner'zhul, Arthas, or Bolvar (rather than a title each of them has used). I'd like to present a different interpretation, beginning with Uther's statements in the Halls of Reflection.

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* '''Uther:''' Arthas is merely a presence within the Lich King's mind. A dwindling presence...

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In this case, I believe Uther was using "Arthas" to refer to the man he and Jaina knew (as he was prior to taking up Frostmourne), and "the Lich King" to refer to the current Arthas (one corrupted by the loss of his soul and removal of his heart). He otherwise uses them interchangeably (as do most other characters).

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After the battle, Uther, Muradin, and Jaina speak well of Arthas. They don't seem to hold him responsible for what he did after being cursed. It makes sense that Uther would want to make some distinction between the Arthas he trained and the Lich King Arthas.

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* '''Uther:''' I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.

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Uther doesn't say there's "good" or "humanity" left in him - nor should there be, after he purged himself of such things. Arthas ''was'' being held back by a piece of his old personality, but it wasn't anything altruistic. He wasn't restraining the Scourge out of the goodness of his missing heart.

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What held the Lich King back was Arthas' pride.

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Arthas intended to conquer the world eventually, but first he wanted to see the world's greatest heroes follow in his footsteps. To prove they could be corrupted, just as he was. That had been his plan all along, from the moment he attacked Stormwind and Orgrimmar. That's why he always spared those who foiled his plans and why he allowed them to grow stronger. To Arthas, everything that happened in Northrend was part of a game. It was a twisted version of what Tirion did with the Crusader's Coliseum.

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'''Interview:'''

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* '''1UP:''' Arthas Menethil, once the noble crown prince of Lordaeron and Paladin of the Silver Hand -- now the all-powerful Lich King, bent on turning the entire world into an army of zombie slaves. And he could, if he so chose -- push the figurative button, and every man, woman, and child in the world would be part of his army of the damned. So what's stopping him, really?

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* '''Chris Metzen:''' Arthas thinks it'd be funny if we all did it for him. He fought the good fight, fought as hard as he could, and ultimately he went nuts up in the far north. And the bad guy used him as the hammer. The bad guy sent him home to kill his dad and kill his people... and loose the plague on everything he ever fought to protect. And all these crusading heroes, with all their epic gear and all their good intentions and all their nobility and all that horses***, flood into the far north... and he's pretty much there to reel 'em in.

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'''Teaser trailer:'''

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* '''The Lich King:''' In the end, all that awaits you is death. Only then will you understand - you've been following in my footsteps all along.

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'''Final battle:'''

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* '''The Lich King yells:''' No question remains unanswered. No doubts linger. You are Azeroth's greatest champions! You overcame every challenge I laid before you. My mightiest servants have fallen before your relentless onslaught, your unbridled fury... Is it truly righteousness that drives you? I wonder.

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* '''The Lich King yells:''' You trained them well, Fordring. You delivered the greatest fighting force this world has ever known... right into my hands -- exactly as I intended. You shall be rewarded for your unwitting sacrifice.

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* ''The Lich King begins to cast a resurrection spell.''

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* '''The Lich King yells:''' Watch now as I raise them from the dead to become masters of the Scourge. They will shroud this world in chaos and destruction. Azeroth's fall will come at their hands -- and you will be the first to die.

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* ''The Lich King laughs.''

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* '''The Lich King yells:''' I delight in the irony.

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The Lich King's arrogance and flair for the dramatic were pieces of the old Arthas. They weren't the ''good'' parts of his personality - those had been lost - but they were parts of him nonetheless. They are what drove the Lich King to act the way he did throughout WotLK.

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'''Conclusions:'''

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* Kil'jaeden destroyed Ner'zhul's body and affixed his soul to the Helm of Domination, which granted him incredible powers. He sealed the helm inside the Frozen Throne.

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* Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and put the helm on his head, allowing Ner'zhul's spirit into his mind.

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* Inside this shared consciousness were Arthas (the death knight), Ner'zhul (the orc), and Matthias (a manifestation of what little good remained in Arthas after Frostmourne took his soul). Arthas spent several years reflecting on his life, then destroyed Matthias.

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* Once Matthias was gone, Ner'zhul expressed his desire to become "one glorious being", neither Arthas nor Ner'zhul. Arthas destroyed him as well. ''"No we. No one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you -- now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready."''

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* Arthas cut out his heart. Those who touched it could speak with an echo of Matthias, but as Tirion says after seeing the heart, ''"Only shadows from the past remain. There's nothing left to redeem!"''

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* Arthas held back the Scourge, not because there was still good left in him, but because he was intent on testing and corrupting Azeroth's greatest heroes before he unleashed his counterattack.

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* Arthas' plan was moments from success when it was foiled by the unexpected destruction of Frostmourne. After being rendered helpless by thousands of vengeful souls, Arthas was slain.

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* Bolvar Fordragon gained the power once wielded by Arthas (and Ner'zhul before him) by having the Helm of Domination placed on his head.

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Thus:

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*{{RaceIconExt|Ner'zhul}} [[Ner'zhul]] — First Lich King; after the end of [[Beyond the Dark Portal]] to the end of [[The Frozen Throne]]

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*{{RaceIconExt|Ner'zhul}} [[Ner'zhul]] / {{RaceIconExt|ArthasDK}} [[Arthas Menethil]] / {{RaceIconExt|Human Boy}} [[Matthias Lehner]] — Dormant Lich King; from the end of [[The Frozen Throne]] to the opening of [[Wrath of the Lich King]]

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* {{RaceIconExt|ArthasDK}} [[Arthas Menethil]] — Second Lich King; from the beginning of [[Wrath of the Lich King]] until its end

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*{{RaceIconExt|Bolvar}} [[Bolvar Fordragon]] — Third Lich King; from the end of [[Wrath of the Lich King]] and into [[Cataclysm]]

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[[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 06:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

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:Am I correct in thinking that you think that in the stead of Arthas' good side (that previously manifested itself as Matthias Lehner), the Arthas that was holding the Scourge back was the ''pride'' of the original Arthas? This prideful facet of the Lich King, and that facet's plan, have been known since before WotLK was announced. By infusing the obvious into the erratic, you have likely figured out the jist of this.

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:However, it is not certain that what you have presented is necessarily the case in all instances. You say that Uther was using "Arthas" to refer to the man he and Jaina ''knew'', but if the bit of "Arthas" in the Lich King was not the good parts of his personality, the man that Jaina ''cared about'' (going into way off-topic territory), then why would she care ''all choked up like that''? If he was not the original Arthas with some good in him, then why would he become the touchy-feely "Father? Is it... over?" Arthas, seen in his death cinematic (no way that was just cold pride)? Even with all goodness in him removed, is Arthas as the Lich King still an emotional <strike>pussy</strike> softie?

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:Also, there was another Lich King between the entities that you have dubbed the "First" and the "Dormant" Lich Kings. It was a fusion of Ner'zhul and Arthas that was strongly implied by TFT, and then confirmed by several Blizzard representatives and developers (and by his cameo in the original Naxx). Arthas: Rise of the Lich King also confirms what TFT presented... before immediately contradicting it. They ''were'' "one glorious being," but then the somehow split into three, reminisced, argued about it (with stabbing), and then got replaced by the "Arthas (minus good)" entity.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 22:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

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::Yes, I believe the "piece of Arthas" that held back the Scourge wasn't anything good, but rather that part of him that wanted to see other heroes follow in his footsteps.

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::I think Jaina was getting choked up because she refused to believe that. She couldn't accept that the Arthas she loved was gone, despite evidence to the contrary. She kept saying things like "maybe I can reason with him" and "maybe there's still hope", despite Uther's protests. After facing Arthas, Jaina realizes her mistake. ''"Forgive me, heroes. I should have listened to Uther. I... I just had to see for myself. To look into his eyes one last time. I am sorry. We now know what must be done."''

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::When Frostmourne took Arthas' soul, he lost most of his compassion and humanity. Matthias was described as the "last dregs" of those things. When Arthas slew him, it said Frostmourne was "all but singing at having claimed the final piece of Arthas’s soul". It stands to reason that Arthas's soul was released with the others when Frostmourne was broken. That's why he spoke to his father as he did - he regained his humanity in those last few moments before he died.

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::With regard to the fused Lich King... I think that was retconned. The last scene in TFT shows Arthas going to sleep, and the first scene in WotLK shows him waking up, years later (still frozen in the same position). The dream in RotLK fills in that period. At the end of it (which would be immediately prior to the start of WotLK), Ner'zhul is urging Arthas to finally complete their merger.

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::''"We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner'zhul, no more Arthas—only this one glorious being."''

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::We all ''thought'' they did exactly that at the end of TFT. That certainly seemed to be Blizzard's original plan - we were presented with such a Lich King in MoM and Naxx-60, and some CMs said the Lich King was a fusion of Arthas and Ner'zhul (they likely hadn't read the book). The decision to take Ner'zhul out of the picture and focus on Arthas probably wasn't made until relatively recently (when RotLK was being written and WotLK was being developed). [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 23:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

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:::While I would like other people's opinions about it, I can not find anything really wrong with your interpretation. It should at some point be worked into the main Lich King article with as much citation as possible.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 00:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

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::::Thinking on this further... I'd say the events of the novel are compatible with most of the statements made about the Lich King.

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::::Metzen once said the Lich King would have "Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL".

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::::*Arthas' body: That much is obvious from looking at him.

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::::*Arthas' personality: Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's spirit so he could call the shots alone. ''"No we. No one tells me what to do."''

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::::*Ner'zhul's wisdom/experience: Arthas gained Ner'zhul's memories before he destroyed him. ''He saw so much - all that Ner’zhul, the orc shaman, had known, all he had seen, had done.''

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::::*Ner'zhul's power: The Lich King's power was bestowed by the crown. ''"I've got everything I need from you - now the power is mine and mine alone."''

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::::*Ner'zhul's evil: Arthas was evil because he lost his soul to Frostmourne, but the end result was the same. ''All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself - it was all gone, now.''

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:::: You can call him "Arthas the Lich King" because he has Arthas' body, memories, and personality (or at least the evil version thereof). You can also say "there is no Arthas; there is only the Lich King" because he has the memories of two beings, and only some of Arthas' original personality - he lost his his ability to love, grieve, or care for anyone. Both interpretations can be valid, depending on your perspective (which can also justify Tirion saying "there is no Arthas Menethil anymore" one minute, then yelling "ARTHAS!" the next few times he sees him).

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:::: Comments on Ner'zhul still being "a chunk of the Lich King" can be explained by Arthas retaining Ner'zhul's memories and experiences. Even his "I was once a shaman" quote can be explained in that manner (Arthas would remember using shamanism, even if they weren't technically his memories).

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:::: [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 18:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

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To sum it up, probably not so briefly:

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*Ner'zhul was a shaman who became a warlock; warlocks are capable of soul manipulation, aka Necromancy, since it was the Nathrezim (The demon Dreadlords) who created that art.

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*Ner'zhul's soul was stripped from his own body and placed in a set of armour, which includes Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. He was then sent to Northrend.

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*Ner'zhul released Frostmourne, and Arthas took it up. This created a link between the two souls, allowing for Ner'zhul to later merge appropriately.

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*Ner'zhul and Arthas became one being, but of two minds. Arthas himself split between his love and his hate. Not necessarily three souls, but two representations of one conflicted soul (Arthas) and another who has already been consumed and corrupted (Ner'zhul).

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*Arthas is the dominant, given his body would be bound to him more so than to Ner'zhul, allowing for him to purge the orc. He then killed his last bit of humanity.

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*Arthas awoke, without the orc within (Despite the conflicting evidence in the Howling Fjord) and proceeded to remove his heart, which contained "Matthias Lehner", an anagram of "Arthas Menethil." Just as the heart was no longer in the body, the innocence was no longer within the mind. But, the heart would still be spiritually connected, granting his conscience the inability to scour the world.

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*The destruction of his heart probably weakened him too much to lash out at the world for a time, conveniently when the Argent Crusade and Knights of the Ebon Blade were ready to strike (Even though two patches were used for the same thing).

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*The forces clashed with the Scourge before they could be moved out, and eventually Tirion finished Arthas off, leaving the "Lich King" as nothing more than a helmet and shattered sword. The rest of the armour wasn't donned by Arthas, since he wore his Death Knight suit while the body armour of Ner'zhul was trapped within the ice block prior to their merge. Speculation would lead to it being lifeless since Ner'zhul would have left it to join Arthas' body. Whether or not Ner'zhul returned to it after being purged is possible, but no one can say for sure but Blizzard.

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*As Tirion considered putting the lifeless, yet powerful Helmet on his own head, Bolvar somehow appears sitting atop the Frozen Throne, despite his apparent near-catatonic condition. He takes it upon himself and styles his title the "Jailer of the Damned." Thus ending the Lich King, and beginning Bolvar's self-imprisonment along with the Scourge, who he is chaining to Northrend.

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*In the Plaguelands, remnants of the Scourge there are being picked off and the land is being restored by both the Argent Crusade and Cenarion Circle. The Knights of the Ebon Blade seemed to have dissolved into the Horde and Alliance, since Thassarian is now Alliance and Koltira is Horde (Granted it seems he's part of the Forsaken rather than the Blood Elves.)

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*The Nathrezim have returned and briefly began their own undead faction, The Risen, using the remaining Scarlet Crusade who didn't join the Onslaught to Northrend. Aurius inevitably became a Death Knight and took up Rivendare's name and title as lord of Stratholme, and the last known Scourge leader outside Northrend. Whether or not he's connected to Bolvar is unknown, and unlikely.

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[[User:Myrlen Midnightstar|Myrlen Midnightstar]] ([[User talk:Myrlen Midnightstar|talk]]) 12:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

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Changes: Forum:The Lich King's head

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+==Source==
-Who or what is in the Lich King's head? The lore seems inconsistent, and it is bugging me. This should probably be added to the main [[Lich King]] article once this is sorted out... perhaps at [[Arthas#Lich_King_of_the_Scourge]].--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 03:08, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
+{{Stub/Item}}
+==External links==
-=== Information ===
+<!-- Read http://www.wowpedia.org/Wowpedia:External_links before posting your links here.
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+{{elinks-item|1743}}
+[[Category:World of Warcraft mail legs items]]
-* In Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, the Lich King is the altered spirit of Ner'zhul.
+[[Category:World of Warcraft poor items]]
-* In Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, the Lich King consists of Ner'zhul merged with Arthas Menethil into a single entity.
-* In Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, the Lich King consists of Ner'zhul, a small boy (later revealed to be Matthias Lehner), and Arthas Menethil in Nordic (vrykul?) garb.
-* Arthas kills both Ner'zhul and Matthias Lehner, making him the dominant personality within the Lich King, but without any good in him.
-* Arthas physically removed his heart and what is left of Matthias Lehner along with it, and Arthas' heart is later destroyed.
-* Uther's ghost says that "Arthas" still exists within "the Lich King", and is holding the Lich King back. Why there is still good in him is unexplained.
-* Arthas is killed, and the good part of him is freed. The Lich King still exists inside the helmet.
-* Bolvar merges with the Lich King.
-* At BlizzCon 2010, Metzen claims that "Ner'zhul is done."
-=== Conclusions and Speculation ===
-* There seems to be a third entity, "The Lich King" existing inside Arthas' body. It likely came about when Arthas merged with Ner'zhul. Arthas: Rise of the Lich King implied that it was Ner'zhul, Arthas' good side, and Arthas' bad side, and that may still be true.
-* The good part of Arthas died thrice (twice if the first time was symbolic of the removal of the heart).
-* Ner'zhul died in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.
-* "The Lich King" still exists, and is now within Bolvar.
-* Conspiracy time: Uther the Lightbringer and Terenas Menethil II were lying in some way.
-* Conspiracy time: The second Matthias Lehner was actually Yogg-Saron. That would explain how the heart was evil and Matthias Lehner was (apparently) good at the same time, but would not explain why the heart needed to be removed.
-=== Comments ===
-:Ner'zhul may or may not actually be dead, depending on how literally that scene is meant to be taken. It seemed very metaphorical and symbolic to me, and could simply have been Arthas mentally suppressing Ner'zhul, leading to him still being a part of the Lich King even after Bolvar takes control. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 03:17, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
-:Honestly? I think Blizz just lost track of all these little bits and pieces and just kept trying to rewrite the lore from scratch, as a result we end up with the tangled mess which we have today. Personally, I like the idea that Ner'zhul is still alive (cause he is one of the greatest Orc characters EVER). Realisticly, the Lich King, was always Ner'zhul, just with his body destroyed (slowly and painfully) and his shamanistic powers, backed by deominc taint, refocused on necromancy. A powerful being trapped within ice from the nether, sitting atop the roof of the world, how could anyone just take that role? It's not a role, it is the soul of Ner'zhul and all his power. So yeah, my vote is for Arthas wasn't the champion Ner'zhul thought he would be, so he sat back and let Arthas get himself killed so a new champion could be taken. I'm also betting Bolvar wasn't his first choice either, pretty sure he would have loved to be able to dual-wield Froustmourne AND The Ashbringer, but Bolvar discovered the plan, he saved Tirion and Azeroth with his sacrafice and shall always be remembered for it. :) Ok, i'ma shut up now :P [[Image:Pokeball.jpg]]&nbsp;[[User:Max Krist|Max Krist]] ([[User talk:Max Krist|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Max Krist|contribs]]) 09:29, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
-::Best I can tell is that the "evil" in the Lich King was always Ner'zhul and never Arthas, him being the part of the entity preventing the Scourge from overrunning Azeroth. Remember that Kil'jaedan ripped his physical being asunder leaving only his spirit in the armor. Thus Ner'zhul had no true "life" left and you can't kill that which has no life. HA![[User:AhotahThunderhorn|AhotahThunderhorn]] ([[User talk:AhotahThunderhorn|talk]]) 20:43, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
-::Oh and one more thing, Bolvar may very well have lost all his righteousness after the whole dragonfire and torture stuff and thus MORE vulnerable to the corruption of the vengeful Ner'zhul than Arthas ever was. Let's not forget the whole time he was a pawn to a certain [[Onyxia | dragon]] so what does that say about his willpower? In other words, Arthas may turn out to have been a "nicer" Lich King than what Bolvar is going to be.[[User:AhotahThunderhorn|AhotahThunderhorn]] ([[User talk:AhotahThunderhorn|talk]]) 20:50, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
-::: Cannot Chris Metzen give us a brief summary of what the hell actually happened. So we can move on with life! xD amagawd... --[[User:Mirdamor|Mirdamor]] ([[User talk:Mirdamor|talk]]) 15:43, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
-===Another Interpretation===
-I disagree with the conclusion that "The Lich King" is an entity distinct from Ner'zhul, Arthas, or Bolvar (rather than a title each of them has used).  I'd like to present a different interpretation, beginning with Uther's statements in the Halls of Reflection.
-* '''Uther:''' Arthas is merely a presence within the Lich King's mind. A dwindling presence...
-In this case, I believe Uther was using "Arthas" to refer to the man he and Jaina knew (as he was prior to taking up Frostmourne), and "the Lich King" to refer to the current Arthas (one corrupted by the loss of his soul and removal of his heart).  He otherwise uses them interchangeably (as do most other characters).
-After the battle, Uther, Muradin, and Jaina speak well of Arthas.  They don't seem to hold him responsible for what he did after being cursed.  It makes sense that Uther would want to make some distinction between the Arthas he trained and the Lich King Arthas.
-* '''Uther:''' I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.
-Uther doesn't say there's "good" or "humanity" left in him - nor should there be, after he purged himself of such things.  Arthas ''was'' being held back by a piece of his old personality, but it wasn't anything altruistic.  He wasn't restraining the Scourge out of the goodness of his missing heart.
-What held the Lich King back was Arthas' pride.
-Arthas intended to conquer the world eventually, but first he wanted to see the world's greatest heroes follow in his footsteps.  To prove they could be corrupted, just as he was.  That had been his plan all along, from the moment he attacked Stormwind and Orgrimmar.  That's why he always spared those who foiled his plans and why he allowed them to grow stronger.  To Arthas, everything that happened in Northrend was part of a game. It was a twisted version of what Tirion did with the Crusader's Coliseum.
-'''Interview:'''
-* '''1UP:''' Arthas Menethil, once the noble crown prince of Lordaeron and Paladin of the Silver Hand -- now the all-powerful Lich King, bent on turning the entire world into an army of zombie slaves. And he could, if he so chose -- push the figurative button, and every man, woman, and child in the world would be part of his army of the damned. So what's stopping him, really?
-* '''Chris Metzen:''' Arthas thinks it'd be funny if we all did it for him. He fought the good fight, fought as hard as he could, and ultimately he went nuts up in the far north. And the bad guy used him as the hammer. The bad guy sent him home to kill his dad and kill his people... and loose the plague on everything he ever fought to protect. And all these crusading heroes, with all their epic gear and all their good intentions and all their nobility and all that horses***, flood into the far north... and he's pretty much there to reel 'em in.
-'''Teaser trailer:'''
-* '''The Lich King:''' In the end, all that awaits you is death.  Only then will you understand - you've been following in my footsteps all along.
-'''Final battle:'''
-* '''The Lich King yells:''' No question remains unanswered. No doubts linger. You are Azeroth's greatest champions! You overcame every challenge I laid before you. My mightiest servants have fallen before your relentless onslaught, your unbridled fury... Is it truly righteousness that drives you? I wonder.
-* '''The Lich King yells:''' You trained them well, Fordring. You delivered the greatest fighting force this world has ever known... right into my hands -- exactly as I intended. You shall be rewarded for your unwitting sacrifice.
-* ''The Lich King begins to cast a resurrection spell.''
-* '''The Lich King yells:''' Watch now as I raise them from the dead to become masters of the Scourge. They will shroud this world in chaos and destruction. Azeroth's fall will come at their hands -- and you will be the first to die.
-* ''The Lich King laughs.''
-* '''The Lich King yells:''' I delight in the irony.
-The Lich King's arrogance and flair for the dramatic were pieces of the old Arthas.  They weren't the ''good'' parts of his personality - those had been lost - but they were parts of him nonetheless.  They are what drove the Lich King to act the way he did throughout WotLK.
-'''Conclusions:'''
-* Kil'jaeden destroyed Ner'zhul's body and affixed his soul to the Helm of Domination, which granted him incredible powers.  He sealed the helm inside the Frozen Throne.
-* Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and put the helm on his head, allowing Ner'zhul's spirit into his mind.
-* Inside this shared consciousness were Arthas (the death knight), Ner'zhul (the orc), and Matthias (a manifestation of what little good remained in Arthas after Frostmourne took his soul).  Arthas spent several years reflecting on his life, then destroyed Matthias.
-* Once Matthias was gone, Ner'zhul expressed his desire to become "one glorious being", neither Arthas nor Ner'zhul.  Arthas destroyed him as well.  ''"No we. No one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you -- now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready."''
-* Arthas cut out his heart.  Those who touched it could speak with an echo of Matthias, but as Tirion says after seeing the heart, ''"Only shadows from the past remain. There's nothing left to redeem!"''
-* Arthas held back the Scourge, not because there was still good left in him, but because he was intent on testing and corrupting Azeroth's greatest heroes before he unleashed his counterattack.
-* Arthas' plan was moments from success when it was foiled by the unexpected destruction of Frostmourne. After being rendered helpless by thousands of vengeful souls, Arthas was slain.
-* Bolvar Fordragon gained the power once wielded by Arthas (and Ner'zhul before him) by having the Helm of Domination placed on his head.
-Thus:
-*{{RaceIconExt|Ner'zhul}} [[Ner'zhul]] — First Lich King; after the end of [[Beyond the Dark Portal]] to the end of [[The Frozen Throne]]
-*{{RaceIconExt|Ner'zhul}} [[Ner'zhul]] / {{RaceIconExt|ArthasDK}} [[Arthas Menethil]] / {{RaceIconExt|Human Boy}} [[Matthias Lehner]] — Dormant Lich King; from the end of [[The Frozen Throne]] to the opening of [[Wrath of the Lich King]]
-* {{RaceIconExt|ArthasDK}} [[Arthas Menethil]] — Second Lich King; from the beginning of [[Wrath of the Lich King]] until its end
-*{{RaceIconExt|Bolvar}} [[Bolvar Fordragon]] — Third Lich King; from the end of [[Wrath of the Lich King]] and into [[Cataclysm]]
-[[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 06:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
-:Am I correct in thinking that you think that in the stead of Arthas' good side (that previously manifested itself as Matthias Lehner), the Arthas that was holding the Scourge back was the ''pride'' of the original Arthas? This prideful facet of the Lich King, and that facet's plan, have been known since before WotLK was announced. By infusing the obvious into the erratic, you have likely figured out the jist of this.
-:However, it is not certain that what you have presented is necessarily the case in all instances. You say that Uther was using "Arthas" to refer to the man he and Jaina ''knew'', but if the bit of "Arthas" in the Lich King was not the good parts of his personality, the man that Jaina ''cared about'' (going into way off-topic territory), then why would she care ''all choked up like that''? If he was not the original Arthas with some good in him, then why would he become the touchy-feely "Father? Is it... over?" Arthas, seen in his death cinematic (no way that was just cold pride)? Even with all goodness in him removed, is Arthas as the Lich King still an emotional <strike>pussy</strike> softie?
-:Also, there was another Lich King between the entities that you have dubbed the "First" and the "Dormant" Lich Kings. It was a fusion of Ner'zhul and Arthas that was strongly implied by TFT, and then confirmed by several Blizzard representatives and developers (and by his cameo in the original Naxx). Arthas: Rise of the Lich King also confirms what TFT presented... before immediately contradicting it. They ''were'' "one glorious being," but then the somehow split into three, reminisced, argued about it (with stabbing), and then got replaced by the "Arthas (minus good)" entity.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 22:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
-::Yes, I believe the "piece of Arthas" that held back the Scourge wasn't anything good, but rather that part of him that wanted to see other heroes follow in his footsteps.
-::I think Jaina was getting choked up because she refused to believe that.  She couldn't accept that the Arthas she loved was gone, despite evidence to the contrary.  She kept saying things like "maybe I can reason with him" and "maybe there's still hope", despite Uther's protests.  After facing Arthas, Jaina realizes her mistake. ''"Forgive me, heroes. I should have listened to Uther. I... I just had to see for myself. To look into his eyes one last time. I am sorry. We now know what must be done."''
-::When Frostmourne took Arthas' soul, he lost most of his compassion and humanity.  Matthias was described as the "last dregs" of those things.  When Arthas slew him, it said Frostmourne was "all but singing at having claimed the final piece of Arthas’s soul".  It stands to reason that Arthas's soul was released with the others when Frostmourne was broken.  That's why he spoke to his father as he did - he regained his humanity in those last few moments before he died.
-::With regard to the fused Lich King...  I think that was retconned.  The last scene in TFT shows Arthas going to sleep, and the first scene in WotLK shows him waking up, years later (still frozen in the same position).  The dream in RotLK fills in that period.  At the end of it (which would be immediately prior to the start of WotLK), Ner'zhul is urging Arthas to finally complete their merger.
-::''"We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner'zhul, no more Arthas—only this one glorious being."''
-::We all ''thought'' they did exactly that at the end of TFT.  That certainly seemed to be Blizzard's original plan - we were presented with such a Lich King in MoM and Naxx-60, and some CMs said the Lich King was a fusion of Arthas and Ner'zhul (they likely hadn't read the book).  The decision to take Ner'zhul out of the picture and focus on Arthas probably wasn't made until relatively recently (when RotLK was being written and WotLK was being developed). [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 23:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
-:::While I would like other people's opinions about it, I can not find anything really wrong with your interpretation. It should at some point be worked into the main Lich King article with as much citation as possible.--{{User:Sandwichman2448/Sig}} 00:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
-::::Thinking on this further...  I'd say the events of the novel are compatible with most of the statements made about the Lich King.
-::::Metzen once said the Lich King would have "Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wisdom, experience, power and EVIL".
-::::*Arthas' body: That much is obvious from looking at him.
-::::*Arthas' personality: Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's spirit so he could call the shots alone. ''"No we. No one tells me what to do."''
-::::*Ner'zhul's wisdom/experience: Arthas gained Ner'zhul's memories before he destroyed him.  ''He saw so much - all that Ner’zhul, the orc shaman, had known, all he had seen, had done.''
-::::*Ner'zhul's power: The Lich King's power was bestowed by the crown.  ''"I've got everything I need from you - now the power is mine and mine alone."''
-::::*Ner'zhul's evil: Arthas was evil because he lost his soul to Frostmourne, but the end result was the same.  ''All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself - it was all gone, now.''
-:::: You can call him "Arthas the Lich King" because he has Arthas' body, memories, and personality (or at least the evil version thereof).  You can also say "there is no Arthas; there is only the Lich King" because he has the memories of two beings, and only some of Arthas' original personality - he lost his his ability to love, grieve, or care for anyone.  Both interpretations can be valid, depending on your perspective (which can also justify Tirion saying "there is no Arthas Menethil anymore" one minute, then yelling "ARTHAS!" the next few times he sees him).
-:::: Comments on Ner'zhul still being "a chunk of the Lich King" can be explained by Arthas retaining Ner'zhul's memories and experiences.  Even his "I was once a shaman" quote can be explained in that manner (Arthas would remember using shamanism, even if they weren't technically his memories).
-:::: [[User:Egrem|Egrem]] ([[User talk:Egrem|talk]]) 18:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
-To sum it up, probably not so briefly:
-*Ner'zhul was a shaman who became a warlock; warlocks are capable of soul manipulation, aka Necromancy, since it was the Nathrezim (The demon Dreadlords) who created that art.
-*Ner'zhul's soul was stripped from his own body and placed in a set of armour, which includes Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. He was then sent to Northrend.
-*Ner'zhul released Frostmourne, and Arthas took it up. This created a link between the two souls, allowing for Ner'zhul to later merge appropriately.
-*Ner'zhul and Arthas became one being, but of two minds. Arthas himself split between his love and his hate. Not necessarily three souls, but two representations of one conflicted  soul (Arthas) and another who has already been consumed and corrupted (Ner'zhul).
-*Arthas is the dominant, given his body would be bound to him more so than to Ner'zhul, allowing for him to purge the orc. He then killed his last bit of humanity.
-*Arthas awoke, without the orc within (Despite the conflicting evidence in the Howling Fjord) and proceeded to remove his heart, which contained "Matthias Lehner", an anagram of  "Arthas Menethil." Just as the heart was no longer in the body, the innocence was no longer within the mind. But, the heart would still be spiritually connected, granting his conscience the inability to scour the world.
-*The destruction of his heart probably weakened him too much to lash out at the world for a time, conveniently when the Argent Crusade and Knights of the Ebon Blade were ready to  strike (Even though two patches were used for the same thing).
-*The forces clashed with the Scourge before they could be moved out, and eventually Tirion finished Arthas off, leaving the "Lich King" as nothing more than a helmet and shattered  sword. The rest of the armour wasn't donned by Arthas, since he wore his Death Knight suit while the body armour of Ner'zhul was trapped within the ice block prior to their merge.  Speculation would lead to it being lifeless since Ner'zhul would have left it to join Arthas' body. Whether or not Ner'zhul returned to it after being purged is possible, but no  one can say for sure but Blizzard.
-*As Tirion considered putting the lifeless, yet powerful Helmet on his own head, Bolvar somehow appears sitting atop the Frozen Throne, despite his apparent near-catatonic   condition. He takes it upon himself and styles his title the "Jailer of the Damned." Thus ending the Lich King, and beginning Bolvar's self-imprisonment along with the Scourge, who he is chaining to Northrend.
-*In the Plaguelands, remnants of the Scourge there are being picked off and the land is being restored by both the Argent Crusade and Cenarion Circle. The Knights of the Ebon Blade seemed to have dissolved into the Horde and Alliance, since Thassarian is now Alliance and Koltira is Horde (Granted it seems he's part of the Forsaken rather than the Blood Elves.)
-*The Nathrezim have returned and briefly began their own undead faction, The Risen, using the remaining Scarlet Crusade who didn't join the Onslaught to Northrend. Aurius inevitably became a Death Knight and took up Rivendare's name and title as lord of Stratholme, and the last known Scourge leader outside Northrend. Whether or not he's connected to Bolvar is unknown, and unlikely.
-[[User:Myrlen Midnightstar|Myrlen Midnightstar]] ([[User talk:Myrlen Midnightstar|talk]]) 12:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)