Talk: Titanic watcher

Revision as of 17:52, 29 June 2011

Forums: Village pump → The RPG dilemma

Main discussion

I checked around and didn't find anything about the last news about the RPG, and how to proceed. As you know, CDev questions 2 said the RPG was not canon. Before WP becomes a complete mess with people removing, people tagging or people making new sections, I think we need a policy.

This is my take on it:

Small lines integrated into something bigger: references should be enough.
Small lines not integrated into something bigger: moved to trivia: "In the RPG blablabla, although it may not be canon".
Medium texts that can act as standalone: Moved to a "In the RPG" section with a RPG-section tag.
Articles that are 90% RPG: bring back the RPG tag in the first line of the article, so people know it's from the RPG without needing to check sources one by one.

Well, that's my suggestion. Waiting for general consensus before everyone starts to do what they want. Would be nice if this was linked as a sitenotice, so everyone is aware.--Lon-ami (talk) 11:08, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I already modified Template:RPG-section to clarify. --g0urra[T҂C] 11:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's enough to handle the problem. I'd call for community discussion.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:04, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that, but it's a start. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I think we need a smaller icon for certain situations(example denizens of deepholm that are only on the RPG)something like the icons on expansions.--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Should Appendix 3 be back to the mainspace? I thought we banished it, and that wouldn't change no matter the new stance.

As for that small information, I'd just leave it in a "trivia" section. Not worth tdo what you ask, considering it's not canon anymore.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:18, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

No, Appendix 3 should be forever banished from the mainspace.

As for the Deepholm denizens (and other areas) that are only in the RPG, they should be abolished overall from the lists. The last thing we need is even more icons. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:22, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, most of those don't have icons anyway. I'd move them to trivia in list form, something like: "In the RPG, these creatures were denizens of this realm: a, b, c and d, but it's not canon".

As for Appendix 3, I asked because I saw someone moving the information: Ettin.--Lon-ami (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

i don't know if you misunderstood me or not, but what i meant was adding a icon like the one in the Template:RPG-section but without the text to the list from those that were from the RPG--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

(inserted) Already is, {{RPG-inline}}.

.

(^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I suggest creating a huge category of RPG, containing all things RPG and create RPG characters category inside to include RPG characters and move them over from the Lore Characters category. And also, sorry about the ettin article, didn't know the source was banished, I thought it's just another RPG book...

Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin (Leave a Message) 15:04, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

There is: Category:Warcraft RPG. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to try the separate the rpg information from he official information in the elemental hierarchy article.--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I think i've managed.--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, Aesindor. We decided Appendix 3 was D&D long ago :P.

As for doing changes, try not to do big ones until we decide a policy, or you may get removed (not talking about elemental hierarchy, Ashendant, I think that one looks right).--Lon-ami (talk) 15:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It took a lot of interpretation but i think i got it right--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:13, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

What about all the pictures from the RPG? Like Elune or Queen Azshara? --LemonBaby (talk) 16:45, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think pictures are any problem... at least until we get better ones--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:30, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I find the Zandalari related pages(especially Rastakhan) and mainly minor races pages(ogre,ogre mage,sea giant and such) abit of trouble... overall I "de-RPed" 270 articles. Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin (Leave a Message) 21:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, now there are just a bajillion to go :D --Ashbear160 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that Warthok is purging "his" dragonflight pages of RPG info. Is this an issue? I respect him, but I feel that I should tell him not to. Would it would be biased to let him slide and others not? Are his actions fine in the first place?--SWM24 48 02:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Aye, just mention it to him that RPG shouldn't be removed... it's still part of the Warcraft after all.

(^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Even though they said the books might as well be considered non-canon, they have stated in the same thing answer that things from the RPG do make its way into the game, and that they basically pick and choose what they what to be considered lore and not lore... (like they always have), so just plain removing all info, just because it comes from the books is not the right way to go about it. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

So let's take the Worgen page as an example (since it's what I referenced on SoL). The vast majority (actually all of it except maybe one line mentioning the skinning) references the RPG book. So what should be done is adding the RPG tag above those sections? Though there are things like the description of the way the creature looks (considering you can see that elsewhere such as in-game and other canon materials such as the comic) that don't really require a book to tell you such as the first line of that section. So what I am getting at is should there in some cases be multiple sections also? Leviathon (talk) 04:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you are talking about when the RPG and the obvious are redundant?--SWM24 48 04:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

What should be done with articles almost completely RPG but still considered canon?(Examples: Sargeras, Worgen, Sea giant, Ogre, Zandalari-related) Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin (Leave a Message) 09:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The RPG information should be segregated from everything else. I cases where they exist outside of the RPG, but it is not cited that they do, then such citation must be found.--SWM24 48 18:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I knew this would happen sooner or later, since the RPG books were causing way too many retcons, imo there's not as much problem as people think it is. As Coobra said before, RPG inline exists, we can simply put it as the headline for RPG info. Encaitar 11:53, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Separate article sections

If you look at this article at the StarCraft Wiki, you'll see they use templates to "section off" parts of articles relating to branches within the canon (the plot branch brack template) in addition to the missions templates (StarCraft II has missions which can be played in different orders, in addition to "hard" splits, eg you can play this mission or that one). Similar templates could be used for RPG info, to "section off" RPG info but still keep information in chronological order. Brann Bronzebeard is an example of an article that could undergo that treatment.

It's also simpler to use section breaks for significant sections derived mostly or entirely from the RPG.

I edited the RPG template slightly to include references to sections, and also to fix a typo. IMO language such as "not canon" should not be used as it's too definitive; I think it should refer to "lesser" or "disputed" canon status, perhaps with a link to the official policy when we end up with one. Bob the Nailer (talk) 01:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I think this was already decided:

This article contains information from the Warcraft RPG which is considered non-canon.

This one for entire article with information only from the RPG and have no representation in other blizzard products.

This section contains information from the Warcraft RPG which is considered non-canon.

This one for sections with information from the RPG, but have representation in other blizzard products.

This one for entries within a list that the information is only from the RPG.

It's non-cannon because that's the term blizzard said RPG is now--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify a bit more: template: RPG, template: RPG-section and template: RPG-inline. Bob the Nailer (talk) 01:49, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Notices

Are we capable of putting up notices like we did prior to the move? Cause if we are capable, we should point to this topic on the notice and ask users to not simply remove all RPG info. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

How is that?--SWM24 48 03:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks good. I wasn't sure if it still worked or not, good to know it does.

(^Sssss/_Slithered) 04:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Quick takeaways

So, I propose a list of quick takeaways gets added to the top of this page (and perhaps somewhere in the Lore policy) just so everyone's on the same page with regard to removals and such:

Do NOT simply remove all RPG information based on the Ask CDev response.
Paragraphs of RPG content disconnected from the rest of the article should be moved to an "In the RPG" section near the end of the article.
Pictures from the RPG are fine (especially for characters like Queen Azshara where we don't have anything better).
Minor stuff from the RPG can be used as references, but not anything important. -- (this is subjective and probably not a good way of putting it)
RPG-only articles get tagged {{RPG}} at the top and removed from any gameplay/non-RPG-specific categories (Lore characters/Major characters/etc...)

Feel free to add/edit bullet points as necessary. --k_d³ 04:34, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of pictures, Shadows & Light has File:Nozdormu.jpg as Nozdormu, but the magazine (in a preview) has it colored red and as Alexstrasza.--SWM24 48 04:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

In the TCG he is bronze as well, so... it would be odd that he, the leader of the flight, would not be bronze himself. Also, is it possible to see this preview image somewhere? --g0urra[T҂C] 05:30, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I can't find it. Someone who bought it would have to scan it. It is not that Nozdormu is red, it is that the image was re-labeled and colored. I guess that the magazine's take is more canon (if confirmable), even though it felt like an error.--SWM24 48 05:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that you would mention pictures and color... Cenarius has different hair and skin color between his depictions in the RPG books and his appearance in Cataclysm (I'm ignoring his appearance in War3 because he did not have unique artwork in that game) File:Cenarius_Cataclysm.jpg File:Cenarius1.jpg File:Cenarius color.JPG. Although it could have been justified that he changed color after his "reincarnation," the original color is now non-cannon... should pages such as his have their top picture changed to better reflect the in-game appearance? --Dr. Cheis (talk) 19:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't support removal of any RPG content. I think the set up we have now with the tag stating its non-canonicity is perfect, all that should be done is for the content to be reorganized.--Drakolord7 (talk) 06:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I support deleting RPG content, but only small non important sentences(for example: Baine Bloodhoof grows stronger each day).

Aesindor, The Celestial Paladin (Leave a Message) 10:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been removing all RPG articles from navigation templates(those that are not about the RPG of course) like the races and gods templates--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

What about all that D&D "validity of the source is in dispute" stuff? Can we give all that the axe? Marbo1 (talk) 01:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I would say not. It is even less canon then before, but it still exists.--SWM24 48 01:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Still, the validity of the source is no longer in dispute. Now that its exceptionally non-canon, If not entirely removed, it should be made clear that its non-canon and not "maybe" factoids. Marbo1 (talk) 01:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

As this is a sensitive issue, it needs more discussion. I think it is fine how it is, possibly with more labeling.--SWM24 48 17:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Cdev question

CDev questions Should those about rpg info be removed?--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Blizzard likely will not answer them. Aren't most of those questions yours anyway?--SWM24 48 18:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Probably but i'm askin what should the official policy be tag them or outright remove them?--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:23, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the page is for things users would like to ask (or know), not whether they can be answered or not. So... it doesn't matter to me if questions from the RPG are in there or not... as they said, they pick and choose elements from the books they like and want to use. A question you remove now, could end up being re-added later on.

Go ahead and place {{RPG-inline}} next to the RPG stuff, and we'll judge on them at a later time.

(^Sssss/_Slithered) 06:18, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That works too but i also think that they should be separated... well i'll do as you say anyway.--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

RPG Articles that need to be redone to include existing wow info

There are articles with mostly RPG cannon information and have been labelled in here entirely as non cannon articles, which is wrong since they exist in wow in some form or another, these articles need to be worked to have cannon info written into them and the rpg info must be separated from the "official" that we need to add. Here are the articles that need to be slightly redone, i'll add as i find them:

Scalebane(exist plenty in wow seem to refer to the male fighter form of the dragonspawn)
Wyrmkin(exist plenty in wow seem to refer to the female caster form of the dragonspawn(there is one heavily armed exception))
Nerubian spiderlord(Commander Eligor Dawnbringer refers to Anub'rekhan and Anub'arak as such before they were crypt lords)

I'll try to find more--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Anub'arak is not referred to as a Spider Lord, only Anub'rekhan. --g0urra[T҂C] 14:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

You're right but he's not referred as the only one, he says "one of the finest Spider Lords of Azjol'Nerub" so it's still cannon--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

If something exists in the RPG, but is also explained in WoW (or at least exists in WoW), the WoW info must be found and used as citation. I would suggest something like "Scalebane is a something." then go on to say how it is explained in depth in the RPG, which is non-canon.--SWM24 48 18:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Well i gave two for the dragonspawn based observation only:

"Wyrmkin are a type of dragonspawn, with breasts and slender figure and shorter snouts, with a proficiency for spellcasting"
"Scalebanes are a type of dragonspawn, with a more robust figure and longer snouts, usually armoured for close combat"

All of this can be directly observed from their models, skin name, and abilities.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

So yeah I'll work with this, need to make one for the spiderlord trough--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Be patient. Don't put it in the article just yet. It's only been a day, so let others see it first. Although this discussion doesn't belong here on the forums but on respective pages' talk pages. --g0urra[T҂C] 13:34, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

We'll these are articles that are entirely labelled as non cannon when they shouldn't be, and is due to blizzard decision that started this thread i might had some more later.--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:41, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Did the first two, now i just need to find a definition that works for nerubian spiderlord, i'm thinking of:

"Spiderlords are a type of beetle-like Nerubian, that used to rule Azjol-nerub, but after dying in the War of the Spider, they were reanimated as powerful Crypt lords in service of the Lich King and the Scourge."

What do you think?--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Since someone replaced what i wrote with notes(which were better than what i wrote), i decided to not do the same to spiderlord article, instead i took the sourced information in the crypt lord article about spiderlords and copied it.--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Population numbers

Does this mean we can finally put the already highly disputed pop numbers to permanent sleep? Kellykins (talk) 17:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Likely. Such statistics can still exists as labeled notes, but they are now irrelevant.--SWM24 48 18:41, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully also the Alignments? Like "chaotic evil" --LemonBaby (talk) 22:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm in favor of just scrapping those entirely. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Aye, hopefully both alignments and those ridiculous numbers.Zamoonda (talk) 23:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Scrap both, is my vote--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Scrap both, or move them to trivia.--Lon-ami (talk) 09:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

IMO, "inappropriate classes" could also be moved to trivia sections. (If a character is said to be a wizard in Warcraft/WoW and a fighter in the RPG, then the fighter class info coudl be moved to the trivia section.) Bob the Nailer (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Azgalor's death

This is a perfect "what to do example". Most of the RPG info there is pretty valid (it's basically a retelling of what happens in Hyjal Summit). However, there's a single line (his no-death) which needs to be tagged, but we can't crate a section for a single line.

What's the answer? moving it to trivia, like "In the RPG Azgalor didn't die", or what?--Lon-ami (talk) 09:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I think this one really hinges on a final decision being made on what to do in case of directly contradictory information. Do we simply ignore it and use canon information instead, or do we make a note of what the now non-canon RPG says? Personally, I'm in favor of the former, but I'd rather not jump into that without more of a consensus first. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 09:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I'm not terribly familiar with his "death" status in WoW, other than knowing he is seen in the Caverns of Time, but it seems to me there's no conflict. He "dies" several times in the Warcraft III mission, and that never stopped him from coming back, so the RPG book wasn't making any kind of new lore by stating he was still alive. Similarly (but not as blatantly), several characters have been killed or seen to die in WoW, only to have players told they were merely "defeated" and not dead (lol merely a setback?) Since the bosses in Caverns of Time mirror the Warcraft III bosses, who did not die permanent deaths, I never assumed these characters were meant to have actually died (except for Archimonde, of course). Now, any evidence of Azgalor's survival is now non-cannon, but I don't see it as a lore conflict, just additional information that hasn't been corroborated. Also, I see no problem mentioning his survival in a sentence or two at the bottom in a new section.--Dr. Cheis (talk) 19:11, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Yet in absence of the RPG saying he survived, what reason do we have to assume that he's not dead? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's one of those things where you just don't know... cause didn't Blizz say, a demon that is killed is simply sent back to the Twisting Nether, and they can only be truly killed there.... or was it just certain types of demons?

(^Sssss/_Slithered) 06:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Really, unless there's another source to directly say he survived, we should label him as deceased. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:44, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Same as with C'thun, he's still talking to people and we labelled him as deceased.--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

C'Thun was explicitly stated to be dead in one of the comics (that he then talked to Med'an and Garona later in that same comic series merely serves to indicate that death doesn't have the same meaning for the Old Gods). Azgalor hasn't done anything since his demise in any source BUT the RPG. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

What i'm saying is that we would should label it as deceased, like we do with C'thun, because like old gods, demons sometimes return, and the only source that says that he didn't die is now non-cannon.--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

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