Talk:Arthas Menethil

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Previous discussions archived: Talk:Arthas Menethil/Archive1

Contents 1 Arthas's race 2 Classes 3 Age of Arthas Menethil 4 Title

Arthas's race

I asked on the WoW forums and several other sites and it was heavly debated if he is Human or Undead currently, People who believe he's Human say he hasn't apparently died and turned into a Undead, Illidan clearly says to him "You reek of Death....Human"

but on the other side those who believe he's Undead say he may have died in the Frozen waste of Northrend after taking Frostmourne, it's clearly written on the Frostmourne page "It sucks the users soul out and eventually turns them into Undead" Deathknights are technically Undead right? and plus he's the Lich King now

I mean I don't want to cause waves or start a "Re-edit war" cause if he's rechanged to Undead that means his classification on the "Major Characters page" will have to be changed as Undead and such but I was just curious if he technically is still Human/alive or Undead. Genova 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. On the one hand, Arthas clearly hasn't been killed. On the other, he IS the Lich King, which does sort of imply undeath. The part about Frostmourne eventually turning its holder into an undead is from the RPG, so it's entirely possible that that's simply game mechanics (just as Death Knight Arthas was considered undead in Warcraft 3). Personally, I think it's probably better to leave it as human unless Blizzard says otherwise. -- Dark T Zeratul 06:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Arthas is considered undead for gameplay reasons (so that holy spells will hurt him, for instance) in both Warcraft III and the RPG, but he's not actually undead. Metzen himself as been quoted as saying so:

"Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wison [sp], experience, power and EVIL. I can tell ya that Arthas is very much alive (he never died) - so he is essentially a healthy human with godlike powers of undeath and telepathy. He IS the new Lich King."

Source: http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/archive/index.php?t-186.html Egrem 20:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's true he never died but I think he is an undead because he wears Frostmourne that is a coursed runeblade. About its curse: "The Lich King can communicate with the wielder at will telepathically, on any plane and at any distance. The Lich King uses this ability to try and corrupt the wielder over time. This has several effects. An individual who wields Frostmourne will not part with it willingly. Over time the person will go from good to neutral and finally to evil. A non-undead evil wielder will then become undead"^{MoM 174} --N'Nanz 00:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Point of note Arthas after he became the Lich King is "undead", according to the RPG. He was also classed as undead in Warcraft III once he became a death knight, thus he could be healed through dark magic in the game. Also according ot the rpg lore, the process to becoming a death knight eventually kills the victim turning them into undead.Baggins 00:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

But of course this will be retconnected in WotLK: Or everybody is happy to be an undead!? ;) --N'Nanz 00:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

They'll have to make the Death Knight class a humanoid in the same way they did for the Forsaken for gameplay purposes, it has nothing to do with "retcons". Infact the Death Knights in the game aren't even the same kind (as you found in the War3/RPG), they appear to be runic death knights. Also the real trick to avoiding the undeadness is to avoid using the runic blades, :p... But they certainly aren't going to implement a new mechanic in the MMO allowing one to change slowly into an undead. The game scale doesn't allow that.Baggins 00:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that description of undeath is sometimes unclear, for example withered are both undead, but sometimes considered more "alive" than the average undead. The same thing occured in zombie lore as well, IIRC. Kind of a state between living and undeath, to quote princess bride, "mostly dead". Although its possible for "undeath" to be reversible, so if he died or not, or exists in some kind of inbetween state, is not that important really in the scheme of things.Baggins 01:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also to quote Brann, in Lands of Mystery (set around the time WoW, but before TBC),

"nothing lives here — but the Lich King and his Scourge aren’t exactly alive. The glacier teems with undead creatures."^{LoM 106}

--Baggins 01:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As for the comments about "mechanics" for Frostmourne above the problem is in the RPG mechanics and lore are often mixed, as was the case for the sword. You can't seperate the two like is often the case for the MMO, as one controls the other in the RPG. Point of note most of the actual RPG mechanics were left out of the frostmourne article, what's left is the lore described inbetween the mechanics according to the RPG.Baggins 01:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I still believe that Arthas (along with many of the acolytes, necromancers, and death knights that serve the Scourge) is physically alive, despite being considered undead for the purposes of resolving certain abilities (like Holy Light or Death Coil). I know he's considered undead in the RPG, but again, I think that's primarily because they wanted him to have the mechanical benefits of the undead creature type (most notably being healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy). Here's my reasoning:

- Sylvanas shoots Arthas with a poisoned arrow, which paralyzes him. Undead creatures are, at least in the RPG, completely immune to both poison and paralysis (which makes sense, since the undead do not have functioning circulatory or nervous systems).

- Arthas still breathes (while undead creatures obviously don't need to). You can see this in his 3D model on the Scourge mission select screen in the Frozen Throne. More notably, if you go to http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/ you can clearly see that the animated Lich King in the background is breathing.

- Ner'zhul wanted a "healthy body" - there were many other, more easily-available options open to him if he wanted an undead host.

- Metzen said so.  :P

Egrem 11:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I happen to agree with you. I think the original intent is as you say, but for gameplay reasons (Both video game and RPG), they've changed the lore. So while this is a case of gameplay creating lore, which is always horrible, it means that he is considered Undead, evne though he shouldn't be : / -- 

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  12:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Arthas in the RPG isn't considered Undead "for gameplay reason" but because he wears Frostmourne. It's part of its lore that the wielder becomes an undead, not a game mechanics. And where and when did Metzen said so? --N'Nanz 14:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a mechanic, the lore about the sword was created because of gameplay. -- 

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  14:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and it's lore thus! --N'Nanz 14:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And then Brann referenced it, and he wasn't even in a section discussing any game mechanics, purely lore and history (rather than lore mixed with dice rolls, statistical information, and other rpg rules). Anycase I still think he probably falls more under that withered category, the state off handedly mentioned on the official site[1], and rpg for someone between undeath and living, strattling both worlds. Its still undead, but not as undead as say the Forsaken.Baggins 17:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also as to the reference to breathing, don't forsaken models have a breathing animation? ...and can't they ultimate drown after being too long under water, even with that racial? (yes, even that is game mechanics.)Yes I know that undead don't have to respirate (according to rpg lore/mechanics), but it seems that we are sometimes given in-game models that show what appears to be breathing (despite the RPG lore/mechanics saying they don't breath). Also in some lore it is said that Forsaken, never have to eat, sleep, or fall ill, yet other lore (as well as game mechanics) shows that they do eat (cannibalism), can sleep, and have been known to fall ill (even the rpg is a bit contradictory on that issue). Point of note, the undead, "don't breath, eat, or sleep" is one of the undead, and forsaken rpg game mechanics, although it is also tied into rpg lore, the mechanics also give the exception that forsaken spellcasters have to have "uninterrupted rest" before preparing spells...Baggins 17:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Baggins 17:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

N'Nanz, Bagggins, i never said it wasn't lore. It is, no getting around that. Where Brann later referenced it has no impact what so ever, it doesn't make it "pure history/lore". Thought i was clear enough in my last post, obviously not. -- 

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  17:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As for the idea that "gameplay creating lore is always horrible", uh gameplay necessitated the creation of quite a bit of lore in the Warcraft RTS series, in order to create new units, new spells, resources, and whatever. If you look at much of the quest lore in World of Warcraft there are plenty of times where in-game mechanics necessitated certain lore descriptions in that game as well. At least for the RTS games, practically everything that was gameplay had some kind of lore behind it to explain it. I've only seen a few people complain about that... Please don't exaggerate, the merits or lack there of lore created through game mechanics... It might be said that alot of lore in Warcraft is created through game mechanics as it is primarily a game world, :p....

Also there is no such thing as "pure history/lore", its just "lore" even Metzen once said in a few interviews that what we read are more or less the opinions of in-universe authors passed down through history... It was one of his explanations to get around possible conflicting information. Essentially they create lore from a flavor lore perspective, always. Flavor lore is just really another term for "lore" (Metzen does not actually ever use the term flavor lore, it was a term invented by a white wolf employee, not Blizzard).Baggins 17:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes i wonder if you're criticising/replying to yourself Baggins :p -- 

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  18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If the race is an issue as to what to put on the page, it clearly states at the top of the page that this article is about his life as a Human, so shouldn't the race be Human? We can save this arguement for the Lich King, can't we? Ellethwen 19:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Classes

His classes are currently listed as "Paladin, Ex-paladin, Death Knight, Lich King". I don't think I'd consider "Lich King" to be a class... it's already listed as both his status and his occupation.

In addition to being a paladin (and later death knight), Arthas could be considered a warrior. Arthas didn't become an apprentice paladin until the age of nineteen, and by that age he was already a very skilled fighter (thanks to years of training with Muradin Bronzebeard). According to the Warcraft III manual, "While at the court of Lordaeron, Muradin befriended the young Arthas and taught him to master fighting blades of every type." The Lich King's RPG stats suggest that Arthas specialized in the use of bastard swords, battleaxes, and warhammers. It stands to reason that he could have been considered a Warrior/Paladin (later Warrior/Death Knight), much as Thrall is considered a Warrior/Shaman (due to his gladiator training). Egrem 00:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see Lich King ot be a class either, its a personality, title, position.Baggins 00:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Age of Arthas Menethil

I had just finished reading Tides of Darkness by Aaron Rosenberg, and in one of the chapters, Arthas is a little boy in the story just as the First Horde was approaching Lordaeron to initiate war. My impression was that Arthas and Varian got to be friends as they were noted playing or spying from one of the balcony tiers high above into the throne room while Terenas, Khadgar, Lothar, and all the other kings of the human kingdoms were obliviously discussing matters in regards to the orcs prior to the actual war. Now, I had thought, jumping forward in time when the Third War occurred, how old was Arthas then? Then it hit me, how old was Arthas in the book. I realized a problem, was Arthas in his early or mid twenties when he went insane, and was Arthas too young or too old to have remembered the Second War? I gotta know. Does anyone have a reference of some kind that could tell me this? Please post an answer on my page or on this thread with the answer. I've been trying to figure this out for most of today. Oh, and I know about Varian and Arthas from Chapter Three, page 57, in the book Tides of Darkness, very last paragraph, for those who are interested in knowing this fact whether true or not. - Psypho 04:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There's a discussion on his age near the top of this page. He is 24 years old as of Reign of Chaos (according to the instruction manual), which would make him around 30 currently, and which implies he would've been between 5 and 10 years old during the Second War (depending on the timeline used). Egrem 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Title

Why is he titled as "prince"? He self titled "King" and he is the Lich KING after all --N'Nanz (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is pre-merger Arthas. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)