Talk:Arthas Menethil

Previous discussions archived: Talk:Arthas Menethil/Archive1

Arthas's race

I asked on the WoW forums and several other sites and it was heavly debated if he is Human or Undead currently, People who believe he's Human say he hasn't apparently died and turned into a Undead, Illidan clearly says to him "You reek of Death....Human"

but on the other side those who believe he's Undead say he may have died in the Frozen waste of Northrend after taking Frostmourne, it's clearly written on the Frostmourne page "It sucks the users soul out and eventually turns them into Undead" Deathknights are technically Undead right? and plus he's the Lich King now

I mean I don't want to cause waves or start a "Re-edit war" cause if he's rechanged to Undead that means his classification on the "Major Characters page" will have to be changed as Undead and such but I was just curious if he technically is still Human/alive or Undead. Genova 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. On the one hand, Arthas clearly hasn't been killed. On the other, he IS the Lich King, which does sort of imply undeath. The part about Frostmourne eventually turning its holder into an undead is from the RPG, so it's entirely possible that that's simply game mechanics (just as Death Knight Arthas was considered undead in Warcraft 3). Personally, I think it's probably better to leave it as human unless Blizzard says otherwise. -- Dark T Zeratul 06:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Arthas is considered undead for gameplay reasons (so that holy spells will hurt him, for instance) in both Warcraft III and the RPG, but he's not actually undead. Metzen himself as been quoted as saying so:

"Arthas and Ner'zhul have become a perfect fusion of one being - Arthas' personality and body with Ner'zhul's wison [sp], experience, power and EVIL. I can tell ya that Arthas is very much alive (he never died) - so he is essentially a healthy human with godlike powers of undeath and telepathy. He IS the new Lich King."

Source: http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/archive/index.php?t-186.html Egrem 20:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's true he never died but I think he is an undead because he wears Frostmourne that is a coursed runeblade. About its curse: "The Lich King can communicate with the wielder at will telepathically, on any plane and at any distance. The Lich King uses this ability to try and corrupt the wielder over time. This has several effects. An individual who wields Frostmourne will not part with it willingly. Over time the person will go from good to neutral and finally to evil. A non-undead evil wielder will then become undead"Template:Cite --N'Nanz 00:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Point of note Arthas after he became the Lich King is "undead", according to the RPG. He was also classed as undead in Warcraft III once he became a death knight, thus he could be healed through dark magic in the game. Also according ot the rpg lore, the process to becoming a death knight eventually kills the victim turning them into undead.Baggins 00:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

But of course this will be retconnected in WotLK: Or everybody is happy to be an undead!? ;) --N'Nanz 00:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

They'll have to make the Death Knight class a humanoid in the same way they did for the Forsaken for gameplay purposes, it has nothing to do with "retcons". Infact the Death Knights in the game aren't even the same kind (as you found in the War3/RPG), they appear to be runic death knights. Also the real trick to avoiding the undeadness is to avoid using the runic blades, :p... But they certainly aren't going to implement a new mechanic in the MMO allowing one to change slowly into an undead. The game scale doesn't allow that.Baggins 00:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that description of undeath is sometimes unclear, for example withered are both undead, but sometimes considered more "alive" than the average undead. The same thing occured in zombie lore as well, IIRC. Kind of a state between living and undeath, to quote princess bride, "mostly dead". Although its possible for "undeath" to be reversible, so if he died or not, or exists in some kind of inbetween state, is not that important really in the scheme of things.Baggins 01:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also to quote Brann, in Lands of Mystery (set around the time WoW, but before TBC),

"nothing lives here — but the Lich King and his Scourge aren’t exactly alive. The glacier teems with undead creatures."Template:Cite

--Baggins 01:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As for the comments about "mechanics" for Frostmourne above the problem is in the RPG mechanics and lore are often mixed, as was the case for the sword. You can't seperate the two like is often the case for the MMO, as one controls the other in the RPG. Point of note most of the actual RPG mechanics were left out of the frostmourne article, what's left is the lore described inbetween the mechanics according to the RPG.Baggins 01:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I still believe that Arthas (along with many of the acolytes, necromancers, and death knights that serve the Scourge) is physically alive, despite being considered undead for the purposes of resolving certain abilities (like Holy Light or Death Coil). I know he's considered undead in the RPG, but again, I think that's primarily because they wanted him to have the mechanical benefits of the undead creature type (most notably being healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy). Here's my reasoning:

- Sylvanas shoots Arthas with a poisoned arrow, which paralyzes him. Undead creatures are, at least in the RPG, completely immune to both poison and paralysis (which makes sense, since the undead do not have functioning circulatory or nervous systems).

- Arthas still breathes (while undead creatures obviously don't need to). You can see this in his 3D model on the Scourge mission select screen in the Frozen Throne. More notably, if you go to http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/ you can clearly see that the animated Lich King in the background is breathing.

- Ner'zhul wanted a "healthy body" - there were many other, more easily-available options open to him if he wanted an undead host.

- Metzen said so. :P

Egrem 11:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I happen to agree with you. I think the original intent is as you say, but for gameplay reasons (Both video game and RPG), they've changed the lore. So while this is a case of gameplay creating lore, which is always horrible, it means that he is considered Undead, evne though he shouldn't be : / -- Zeal ^(T/C)  12:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Arthas in the RPG isn't considered Undead "for gameplay reason" but because he wears Frostmourne. It's part of its lore that the wielder becomes an undead, not a game mechanics. And where and when did Metzen said so? --N'Nanz 14:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a mechanic, the lore about the sword was created because of gameplay. -- Zeal ^(T/C)  14:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and it's lore thus! --N'Nanz 14:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And then Brann referenced it, and he wasn't even in a section discussing any game mechanics, purely lore and history (rather than lore mixed with dice rolls, statistical information, and other rpg rules). Anycase I still think he probably falls more under that withered category, the state off handedly mentioned on the official site[1], and rpg for someone between undeath and living, strattling both worlds. Its still undead, but not as undead as say the Forsaken.Baggins 17:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also as to the reference to breathing, don't forsaken models have a breathing animation? ...and can't they ultimate drown after being too long under water, even with that racial? (yes, even that is game mechanics.)Yes I know that undead don't have to respirate (according to rpg lore/mechanics), but it seems that we are sometimes given in-game models that show what appears to be breathing (despite the RPG lore/mechanics saying they don't breath). Also in some lore it is said that Forsaken, never have to eat, sleep, or fall ill, yet other lore (as well as game mechanics) shows that they do eat (cannibalism), can sleep, and have been known to fall ill (even the rpg is a bit contradictory on that issue). Point of note, the undead, "don't breath, eat, or sleep" is one of the undead, and forsaken rpg game mechanics, although it is also tied into rpg lore, the mechanics also give the exception that forsaken spellcasters have to have "uninterrupted rest" before preparing spells...Baggins 17:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Baggins 17:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

N'Nanz, Bagggins, i never said it wasn't lore. It is, no getting around that. Where Brann later referenced it has no impact what so ever, it doesn't make it "pure history/lore". Thought i was clear enough in my last post, obviously not. -- Zeal ^(T/C)  17:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As for the idea that "gameplay creating lore is always horrible", uh gameplay necessitated the creation of quite a bit of lore in the Warcraft RTS series, in order to create new units, new spells, resources, and whatever. If you look at much of the quest lore in World of Warcraft there are plenty of times where in-game mechanics necessitated certain lore descriptions in that game as well. At least for the RTS games, practically everything that was gameplay had some kind of lore behind it to explain it. I've only seen a few people complain about that... Please don't exaggerate, the merits or lack there of lore created through game mechanics... It might be said that alot of lore in Warcraft is created through game mechanics as it is primarily a game world, :p....

Also there is no such thing as "pure history/lore", its just "lore" even Metzen once said in a few interviews that what we read are more or less the opinions of in-universe authors passed down through history... It was one of his explanations to get around possible conflicting information. Essentially they create lore from a flavor lore perspective, always. Flavor lore is just really another term for "lore" (Metzen does not actually ever use the term flavor lore, it was a term invented by a white wolf employee, not Blizzard).Baggins 17:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes i wonder if you're criticising/replying to yourself Baggins :p -- Zeal ^(T/C)  18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If the race is an issue as to what to put on the page, it clearly states at the top of the page that this article is about his life as a Human, so shouldn't the race be Human? We can save this arguement for the Lich King, can't we? Ellethwen 19:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I find it fairly difficult to think of Arthas as "alive". He obviously is not fully alive with the powers over death he controls, but he literally cut open his chest and ripped out his heart, which was run through by Tirion's Ashbringer. Metzen said that "Arthas never died." (http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/08/04/blizzcon-day-2-wow-lore-and-quests-panel-liveblog/), but you have to wonder what the implications of Death are. Perhaps he's slowly been dying and become more reliant on Necromancy to keep himself "alive"? Without a Heart, it's hard to say he isn't Undead. Perhaps he simply skipped the whole Death process and went from being alive to being Undead?(Ignoring Semantics, obviously he probably wouldn't be considered Undead if he never died) Drpancake

Did anyone notice that the New Plague which is supposed to kill humans, orcs, Scourge, etc. made the Lich King weaken but not kill him? Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

That could probably be attributed to the large amount of power the Lich King Controls, as I don't know if it would make sense for him to be effected less by a plague that targets humans and undead just because he is half human half undead, or in a twilight Zone of some sort in that respect. But perhaps there's something to it.Drpancake

Classes

His classes are currently listed as "Paladin, Ex-paladin, Death Knight, Lich King". I don't think I'd consider "Lich King" to be a class... it's already listed as both his status and his occupation.

In addition to being a paladin (and later death knight), Arthas could be considered a warrior. Arthas didn't become an apprentice paladin until the age of nineteen, and by that age he was already a very skilled fighter (thanks to years of training with Muradin Bronzebeard). According to the Warcraft III manual, "While at the court of Lordaeron, Muradin befriended the young Arthas and taught him to master fighting blades of every type." The Lich King's RPG stats suggest that Arthas specialized in the use of bastard swords, battleaxes, and warhammers. It stands to reason that he could have been considered a Warrior/Paladin (later Warrior/Death Knight), much as Thrall is considered a Warrior/Shaman (due to his gladiator training). Egrem 00:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see Lich King ot be a class either, its a personality, title, position.Baggins 00:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Age of Arthas Menethil

I had just finished reading Tides of Darkness by Aaron Rosenberg, and in one of the chapters, Arthas is a little boy in the story just as the First Horde was approaching Lordaeron to initiate war. My impression was that Arthas and Varian got to be friends as they were noted playing or spying from one of the balcony tiers high above into the throne room while Terenas, Khadgar, Lothar, and all the other kings of the human kingdoms were obliviously discussing matters in regards to the orcs prior to the actual war. Now, I had thought, jumping forward in time when the Third War occurred, how old was Arthas then? Then it hit me, how old was Arthas in the book. I realized a problem, was Arthas in his early or mid twenties when he went insane, and was Arthas too young or too old to have remembered the Second War? I gotta know. Does anyone have a reference of some kind that could tell me this? Please post an answer on my page or on this thread with the answer. I've been trying to figure this out for most of today. Oh, and I know about Varian and Arthas from Chapter Three, page 57, in the book Tides of Darkness, very last paragraph, for those who are interested in knowing this fact whether true or not. - Psypho 04:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There's a discussion on his age near the top of this page. He is 24 years old as of Reign of Chaos (according to the instruction manual), which would make him around 30 currently, and which implies he would've been between 5 and 10 years old during the Second War (depending on the timeline used). Egrem 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Beyond the Dark Portal (book) gives the information that he's twelve at the time the story takes place.--Maibe (talk) 13:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Title

Why is he titled as "prince"? He self titled "King" and he is the Lich KING after all --N'Nanz (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is pre-merger Arthas. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

He hadn't merged with Ner'zul by the time that he returned to Lordaeron and proclaimed himself "King Arthas." Swiftstar (talk) 22:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)Swiftstar

Like Kael'thas, Arthas was never crowned as king. Just because he said he was doesn't make it so. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Typos

I was getting ready to correct some minor typos but I'd noted this bit... "They fought an undead army and a plague-infested granary." In "The Plague of Undeath". How exactly does one fight a granary? Is that supposed to be "found" instead of "fought"? --Solitha (talk) 10:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"Found" does indeed make more sense. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

WoW Model

I don't know about you but i don't like the arthas human model in wow. His hair is too short and it look's like his armour has been painted to his body.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by LKHighlord (talk · contr).

This is not a forum. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Arthas gone

According to the end of the Quest "Tiron's Gambit", he destroyed the heart of Arthas. So his humanity as in the Prince Arthas Menethil of Lordaeron is gone forever? Crimsonknight17

Yes, but the Lich King still has Arthas's appearance and personality. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It's still debatable, I think. According to what I've seen in the art book about the Wrath of the Lich King cinematic, it says that Arthas is still dreaming as the Lich King controls his body. Incoming plot twist? This is me.I am the sexiest Dwarf ever.If you disagree, click here. 01:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that Arthas could still be alive, if but in physical form, memories and personality. The humanity being lost is simply meaning that he no longer has any remorse, compassion or any form of emotion. He is the body and mind but the metaphorical soul is dead, though I'd say his literal soul, the essence which keeps him alive is still in existence, if but in a diminished state. Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Personality

A potential debate for all such pages: do we need psychoanalysis of characters? Any thoughts? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Unless there are official references for it, it's all in the eye of the beholder and easily a target of NPOV and editorial notes. I vote against it. g0urra[T҂C] 01:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So what do you think of the one here? Keep it, or kill it (and hope it doesn't come back as a lich)?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Member of L80ETC?

Under 'Trivia' someone has listed Arthas as a previous member of Level 80 Elite Tauren Chieftain. I haven't played through until the end of Warcraft III the Frozen Throne, but I understand that during the ending sequence (credits?) we see Arthas playing guitar along to a L80ETC song. I assumed that this was just a joke on Blizzard's part. Is this really considered lore? I can't see how it's even possible. I don't want to jump the gun here by going in and editing it myself without asking anyone, but perhaps this trivia is best reworded to describe the scene in question, rather than stating that he was a member of the band (which may be misleading, unless, that is, there is further evidence that I'm overlooking; if so, I apologise in advance). --Drathaen (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the lore status of the band itself is somewhat fluid anyway. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Especially when you consider their name is constantly changed to suit each subsequent game's level cap (10, 60, 70, 80) Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

'Crazy'

The article- and quite a few other sources- call Arthas 'crazy'. While hearing voices is a symptom of dementia, alone it is only called 'schizophrenia'. And I don't think being possessed counts as schizophrenia. Sorry if this seems gossipy, but it seems rude to call someone crazy when clinically they aren't. Deiena (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

He lives next door to an Old God, I wouldn't expect him to retain all of his sanity.Drpancake

Thing is, the voices aren't simply ones he hears as the byproduct of some form of dementia, it is the single voice of the Lich King speaking to him through Frostmourne (pre-Arthas/Ner'zhul combine) and subsequently the voices of the thousands (possibly millions) of minds he holds under his control. It is likely that he lost what sanity he had left due to the Lich King's voice, but he by no means had any form of psychosis which caused him to hear voices. Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 22:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

He IS crazy at the time, but he wasn´t when he heard those voices; they voices where real and not imagined by him. Dr.M.Ginius (talk) 15:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that his grip on sanity was as weak as Bill Clinton at a swimwear parade, but he was not completely insane until AFTER Ner'zhul's voice drove him to insanity. I was saying he didn't have a type of psychosis that caused him to hear the voices, not that he lacked any psychosis at all.Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I get the point. Anyway he wasnt very sane if he murdered 100 villagers, burned his own ship, claimed a sword that he knew it was an evil thing, and then killed magni... Dr.M.Ginius (talk) 19:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Arthas now the Lich King period?

After reading Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, new questions have popped up? How should it be brought up that Arthas has sole control of the Lich King mantra? Fladen (talk) 05:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The appelations "Ner'zhul the Lich King" and "Arthas the Lich King" sound good to me, but that can be a bit extreme.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 22:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Balnazzar as Lordaeron's ruler?

Not entirely sure whether this should be under Arthas or Balnazzar as it relates to both of them, but why is it that Balnazzar is regarded as the current ruler of Lordaeron when he is only in control of one section of the city and the other section is controlled by Arthas's undead? Surely that should mean that the ruler is unspecified, or disputed etc. If not it should certainly fall under Arthas as the incumbent ruler given that he has never died, never renounced the thrown and is in control of a good percentage of Lordaeron Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 22:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is it told in the article that Balnazzar is the current ruler of Lordaeron? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Bottom of the page in the positions held: preceded by Terenas, suceeded by Balnazzar Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 16:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It tells that Balnazzar succeded Arthas, but it is NOT told that Balnazzar currently control Lordaeron. Go to Balnazzar's article and it will tell that he was succeded by Sylvanas, the current ruler. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot that Lordaeron refers to the capital city as well as the land itself, though I still don't get why, it's as bad as Azeroth Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 16:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Profile picture

Shouldn't a picture, depicting a person within an article about his/her life, not look like how s/he looked most of their lifespand, instead of the most recent where events might have changed appearance? perhaps its just me. TherasTaneel (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Youre right, he was the "regular Arthas" more time than he was "undead" Arthas or "Lich King" Arthas. The human box art of Warcraft 3 depicits Arthas while young, if that helps, but changing the picture is discusable; Arthas while undead was more important than while human, and Arthas is not a person but a fictional character. We may start a votation about changing the image.Dr.M.Ginius (talk) 15:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

How did Arthas do it?

After reading through the article I'm curious as to how Arthas managed to gain control of the Lich King as an entity? If he was the second half of the Lich King then surely Ner'zhul should've gained dominance. Any readers of Rise of the Lich King are encouraged to contribute all knowledge they have pertaining to the subject, even if it means creating vast paragraphs of info.Scum of the Earth, COME ON! (talk) 23:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, sign your posts. Secondly, this seems like something that would be best answered in the forums.

Cheers, Warchiefthrall (talk) 23:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)