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Talk:Azeroth (Continent)

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Retconned

Azeroth hasnt been retconned; well not entirely. Their has always been the World of Azeroth ie the Planet and the Azeroth Kingdom. The capital of Azeroth Kingdom has always been Stormwind (despite being spelt wrong occastionally in Warcraft 1 as Stonewind). Check out the map from Warcraft 1

Then in Warcraft II they added a few other Kingdoms, but still the southern part of the Eastern Kingdoms was always Azeroth Kingdom with the capital of Stormwind.

And it still remains Azeroth Kingdom with little changing right up to and including World of Warcraft

Granted they have added STV and a few other regions to Azeroth Kindgom etc, but their has always been only two definitions of Azeroth.

  1. The Name of the Planet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeroth_%28world%29
  2. The name of the Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeroth_%28kingdom%29

- Access 13:14, 3 Dec 2005 (EST)

Although, the above seems correct, it is misleading in that Azeroth is not referred to as a kingdom throughout, but more as a region as of World of Warcraft (see page 154 of the Collector's Edition manual; I don't have the regular version, so I don't know if that's different). Also, Wikipedia is not canon. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 5:10 PM PST 5 Jan 2007

Kingdom of Stormwind or Azeroth?

Since this has come up as an issue recently - I personally feel it should be normally referred to as the KofSW on here since that is the most common WoW terminology and the least confusing version. See also User talk:Theron the Just. -- Kirkburn 19:43, 15 August 2006 (EDT)

I think Kingdom of Stormwind is a retcon that appeared in WoW. We should use it. --Fandyllic 8:59 PM PDT 15 Aug 2006
And I think that we should use the name Kingdom of Azeroth. Theron.
Just saying it and not giving a reason is no way for us to actually allow your change, now, is it. -- Kirkburn 06:56, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
I feel that the name Azeroth is more correct. Yes, perhaps some people find the use of the name for several things to be confusing, but I personally don't. And is this "new name" really canon? Theron.
It is canon, in that it is used in World of Warcraft (which you should know since it said as much in the link you posted, and the article information you obliterated). Importantly you must think about what less knowledgeable visitors will be confused by - most visitors here will have come from playing WoW, and will be completely confused by referring to Azeroth in that fashion. You may not have a problem with it, but many will ... -- Kirkburn 08:38, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Are there any sources in the past couple of years that refer to the modern kingdom as Azeroth? The article says the Alliance Player's Guide refers to the pre-Third War kingdom as Azeroth, but what does it refer to the modern kingdom as?--Aeleas 10:45, 16 August 2006 (EDT)
Actually, the whole Alliance Player's Guide only refers to the kingdom of "Azeroth" in two instances. On page 158 where it describes the history of the alliance and the seven kingdoms that existed in the time of the First and Second Wars. The other is in the Alliance Timeline on page 161 where it talks about "Anduin Lothar of Azeroth". These are the only two occurences of Azeroth as kingdom in the whole book. In all other cases when Azeroth is used it either refers to the continent or the whole world of Azeroth. In the same Alliance Timeline mentioned above it also lists the seven kingdoms and calls one of it Stormwind and not Azeroth. So, the Alliance Player's Guide isn't really consistent in its usage of Azeroth/Stormwind as the name for the kingdom. Besides those two occurences of Azeroth the book always uses Stormwind, though (but in most of the cases it's not clear if the text is meant to refer only to the city or the kingdom of Stormwind). Anyway, I can confirm that in no part of the Alliance Player's Guide the modern kingdom is referred to as Azeroth. --Foogray 09:49, 17 August 2006 (EDT)

Well there is one questionable refrence in the article about Benedictus, that says he traveled south to Azeroth. That could be interpreted as being the former nation or the continent, but its unclear. But its referring to a time before the end of the third war, so there is no conflict either way.Baggins 16:53, 1 December 2006 (EST)

As a point of note, the World of Warcraft Official Strategy Guide also refers to the former Kingdom of Azeroth during its timeline rather than Stormwind.Baggins 18:04, 5 January 2007 (EST)

The Kingdom of Azeroth appear to be referred to in the past tense (at least in terms of World of Warcraft).
From Timeline (WoWOSG):
Warcraft: Orcs and Humans
0
Medhiv is killed by his best friend, Lord Lothar, and his own apprentice, Khadgar. The Orc Warlock, Gul'dan was in Medivh's mind at the moment of his death, and consequently suffered a vicious backlash that left him unconcious for weeks. After five grueling years of attrition, the Horde finally conquers the nations of Azeroth and Khaz Modan, and claims Blackrock Spire as its base of operations.
This appears to indicate that Azeroth is no more as of the time of World of Warcraft. So, since this is WoWWiki, it would be misleading to emphasize the now destroyed Kingdom of Azeroth over the present and thriving Kingdom of Stormwind. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:51 PM PST 5 Jan 2007
It's still used as a kingdom name on certain WoW maps (old official site, manual etc.) iirc. so that's not really true. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 19:54, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Which maps? It's not on the Collector's Edition cloth map and its not referred to as the Kingdom of Azeroth in the manual as far as I can tell. Can you link to the maps on the official WoW site where it is mentioned as a kingdom? I know there are some obsolete maps on the BLizard site, but those probably don't count. Just asserting stuff without evidence doesn't make your argument very strong. Remember, in WoW, Azeroth is known as both the world and the region of the Eastern Kingdoms around Stormwind and southward (as shown in the manual), but that doesn't mean the kingdom still exists by name or that the kingdom of Stormwind is really called the kingdom of Azeroth. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 5:05 PM PST 5 Jan 2007

The point was not what is called now, which is Stormwind of course, only that it was called Azeroth in the past in the history of Azeroth, even in some WoW related documents. Which is how we treat it on this wiki, and will continue to treat it. There are no changes.Baggins 20:06, 5 January 2007 (EST)

My personal view of what happened is:
  1. In 1994, they developed the name "Azeroth" for the kingdom and its territory, and used it in this way through Warcraft III.
  2. Starting in Warcraft III, they began using the name Azeroth for the entire world as well.W3Man 109
  3. In WoW, they decided to retroactively change the name of the kingdom to "Stormwind", while using "Azeroth" for both the world and the entire eastern continent of the world.
  4. Thinking better of adding yet another meaning for the name, they changed the name of the eastern continent to the Eastern Kingdoms shortly before release. It's impossible to say whether quests like this one[1] weren't updated for this change, or are intended to refer to the subcontinent.
  5. The handful of modern references -- in our time, not Azeroth's -- we have using "Azeroth" for the kingdom could be either mistaken inclusions of the deprecated usage from someone at Blizzard (or Brady Games) who didn't get the memo, or a very clumsy attempt to indicate that the name change actually occurred within the history of Azeroth (the world, that is).
Ultimately, though, there is little point in arguing about whether the change was a retcon, was intended to have occurred within the lore of the game, or was a double retcon from the first to the second option. We all can form our own opinions on that.
What I think we should agree on, though is that whatever the nature of the change, the overwhelming current standard is to use the name Stormwind for the kingdom, both past and present.
Saying "Stormwind (formerly Azeroth)" everywhere is inelegant and unnecessary. The best standard for us to adopt is the standard found in current sources, which is to use the name Stormwind for the kingdom, both past and present. The lead paragraph and "Kingdom name" sections of Kingdom of Stormwind are really the only places where we need to use or discuss the former name. With copies of sources that use Azeroth for the kingdom, such as Battles of the First War, we can make sure references to the kingdom are linked with [[Kingdom of Stormwind|Azeroth]].--Aeleas 21:06, 5 January 2007 (EST)
"the standard found in current sources"

The standard found in current sources is;

1. Use the old name Azeroth for any refrences to the destroyed pre-wow kingdom
2. Use Stormwind retroactively for the nation that was Azeroth in the past.
Alliance Player's guide page 158, is quite specific that the original 7 nations were named,
Azeroth, Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Gilneas, Dalaran, and Alterac.
That page never once uses the term "stormwind" to describe the pre-existing nation that originally split from Arathor. It isn't until it reaches the post 3rd-war period that it starts using the term "Stormwind" for the nation.Baggins 21:19, 5 January 2007 (EST)
I've so lost track of the indentation here.. I tend to beleive the continental use of Azeroth vs Eastern Kingdoms was a misconception, i don't recall seeing it used as such myself. The maps i was refering to were from the old site, back in beta days and for a while after release. They've gone now. The manaual however still has the regions as Nothern Kalimdor, Southern Kalimdor, Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, and Azeroth. It just happens that the Eastern Kingdom regions are actually kingdoms unlike in Kalimdor, which makes sense given the implication of Eastern Kingdoms and the fact it is made up of 4 Kingdoms over two (close) land masses.
I'm really not sure about Stormwind taking precedence, as i see them as being interchangable. It's Stormwind that rules over the region of Azeroth, to me kingdom of Stormwind and kingdom of Azeroth are both valid. Thus is becomes the united kingdom of Azeroth, under Stormwind kingdom rule.. or something. It's no more confusing than Europe, Great Britain, Britain, United Kingdom, and England ;p
Azeroth the kingdom hasn't been destroyed, so it's still just as valid. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 21:26, 5 January 2007 (EST)
I think this the wild west of wiki indentation.
To address Baggin's post above, I don't think that's an accurate picture of the standard currently in use at all. According to Foogray, above, the APG uses the term "Azeroth" twice for the historical kingdom, and in the timeline describes "Stormwind" as one of the Seven Kingdoms. That aside, WoW, the focus of this wiki, universally uses "Stormwind" for the kingdom, past and present.
Zeal, the WoW Beta did indeed use Azeroth for the Eastern Kingdoms, though I don't think I have a screenshot as proof. It was shortly before release, or perhaps just before the open beta, that it was changed, and the term "Eastern Kingdoms" was introduced.--Aeleas 21:39, 5 January 2007 (EST)

"According to Foogray, above, the APG uses the term "Azeroth" twice for the historical kingdom, and in the timeline describes "Stormwind" as one of the Seven Kingdoms."

There are 3 or four times where its mentioned as the old kingdom, I've mentioned a few of them, in above posts. Also its a misconception that this website is entirely WoW focused at this point. In the last few months we have decided that it is Warcraft focused, that is the entire franchise, which btw is called World of Warcraft at this point even in the novels and rpg.Baggins 21:43, 5 January 2007 (EST)


But the WoW manual is WoW too, same as with all prior games. And yes the beta did, but i consider that a back peddle on planned design choice and story, like much of the beta was, and therefore having no implication for the actual lore. I only mentioned the old site earlier because that was still used post release, and those thing' weren't actually changed, they just don't exist anymore as they're not needed (official maps don't need to list any of the kingdoms/regions for wow). --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 21:47, 5 January 2007 (EST)


To count the times, Kingdom Azeroth is mentioned in Alliance Player's Guide, kingdom of Azeroth is mentioned 4-5+ times on page 158 alone, one of those is the topic heading in the section about the Kingdom of Azeroth itself. Its mentioned at least once in Benedictus article as well, and a few other refrences scattered throughout the book, always in the past tense.Baggins 21:49, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Don't let this get out hand, remember we're talking about semantics, not life or death, please. Now my thoughts - as written on WoWWiki:About (which is indeed written by myself, but I think it is correct), the website has become about Warcraft as a whole, with an obvious focus on WoW. However, this does not mean WoW overrides all other sources. One must take a balanced view of the whole (noting that the RPG books and novels are official sources), and take a decision from that. Remember, the most important thing is that we should try to keep confusion to a minimum, and keep it simple. --  Kirkburn talk contr 21:57, 5 January 2007 (EST)

I would conisder the WoW standard more appropriate because it will be the one familiar to the majority of WoWWikians, though even without privileging it in that manner, I think it's by far the least confusing and simpler approach.--Aeleas 22:04, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Yes but it has nothing to do with what is most relevant. The wiki is about warcraft with a wow focus, not a wow priority. May seem like semantics, but its a big difference. It means all sources are valid and should be represented, it's just that the information relevent to (not just from) WoW is given the limelight, with WoW irrelevant information taking a back seat. At least that's how i interperate the mission statement. If user's might not understand something, it's the wiki's job to educate them in the process of their reading so that they do. We shouldn't be conforming to WoW specific terminology. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 23:41, 5 January 2007 (EST)
I agree that both the WoW and APG standards should be represented, as Kingdom of Stormwind#Kingdom name does. But in general usage, we can't very well say "the kingdom called Stormwind in WoW and Azeroth in the Alliance Player's Guide" every time we mention it. In this case, WoW usage conflicts with the APG, and if we are going to adopt a consistent approach, then we will need to use one or the other. For example, according to the official WoW website:
Their journey finally ended after many long seasons, and they settled in the northern region of the continent they would name Azeroth. In a fertile valley they founded the kingdom of Stormwind, which quickly became a self-sufficient power in its own right.[2]
The lead section of our article Kingdom of Stormwind was recently edited[3] to conflict with the WoW version and adopt the APG version instead. There is a difference between not giving WoW automatic precedence and giving the Alliance Player's Guide automatic precedence over WoW, which is what is being done.
Perhaps the best thing to do would be to lay out both sides clearly, and vote on an addendum to WW:WRITE describing which usage should be used on WoWWiki, so that it can be a community-made decision.--Aeleas 02:42, 6 January 2007 (EST)
It's a lore issue, latest source takes precedence. It just happens that it is not WoW, and even it it was, WoW is not consistant itself. Both versions are valid uses. But if the point (i probably missed) was to resolve article naming, sure vote of the prefered usage by the community. This is assuming i'm not alone in the beleif the kingdom was not renamed by Stormwind, or was not retconed, just interchanging usage. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 02:54, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Here is something that is clearer than anything else I have ever attempted to explain. The kingdom kept the name Azeroth until it got sacked. When it was getting rebuilt they did not change the name. But it is a different kingdom all together. (IE Stormwind also the name of the capital city of Azeroth but now the Capital City of Stormwind.) --The last Alterac 02:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Split

I proposed this page be split into 3 pieces:

The reason for this is that these are totally different concepts that editors should distinguish when contributing, and linking to subsection with # signs is not always feasible (e.g. in templates while retaining highlight functions of the template). Additionally, Wikipedia has a disambiguation page for Azeroth. --Voidvector 06:06, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Agreed -Zeal (talk - contr - web) 08:22, 26 December 2006 (EST)
I agree that it should be split. I would propose:
The section on the changed name of the kingdom can be incorporated into Kingdom of Stormwind; much of it is already there, and also repeated in a third place in Retcon. We don't need two articles on the same thing merely because of a name change.
Remember that according to WW:NAME, parenthetical text in article names is lower case.--Aeleas 12:24, 26 December 2006 (EST)

On a related note, is there a {{for}} Template here? (e.g. For something else please see this (disambiguation) If not I am gonna go copy the Wikipedia for template here. --Voidvector 13:39, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Ok, I split according to Aeleas' suggestion, but since there are only 2 alternatives right now, I didn't create a disambiguation page. I just listed both in the top link sentence. --Voidvector 06:55, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Relation to Starcraft

I was wandering the Starcraft 2 website and came across something... peculiar. On one of the pieces in the artwork section, it showed a map of the galaxy, containing the worlds mentioned in Starcraft, although I also saw a planet called Azeroth; essentially it was a earth-resembling planet.

--Kel' Thuzad 02:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This is part of the april fools joke that adds tauren marines to starcraft. Its a joke. Warthok Talk Contribs 02:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

In the picture...

There are a couple islands near Tirisfal Glades. On some maps it isn't there. Possibility for a new area (maybe added by patch) in WOTLK? Or what are they for, a link to them, etc.?Commonsense 08:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If you're talking about the Broken Isles, they've always been there (though their location has changed considerably throughout the various Warcraft games). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Nah, I mean the islands near Tirisfal Glades.Commonsense 08:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The little ones west of Agamand Mills and north of Solliden Farmstead?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. Commonsense 19:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I always assumed they were the Dragon Isles that Blizzard never got to adding in vanilla WoW. Leviathon (talk) 20:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Azeroth vs Northrend

I added the 4th disambiguation entry since I've noticed a lot of players (and pages here) subdividing the playable world into "Azeroth, Outland, and Northrend". Northrend is actually part of Azeroth (the world), so this division is not really accurate, but I thought this common usage should be mentioned. As far as I know, there is no in-game term that comprises Kalimdor + Eastern Kingdoms, but if there is, it should be mentioned too. -- Harveydrone 20:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

See for example Fishing pool. -- Harveydrone 20:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Is this alot of players on your server or all servers in general? It needs citations. It also might only warrent a note near the end of the article, since it doesn't actually open into its own article.Baggins (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I've heard in on the 3 servers where I mainly play, but more in forums, and on some pages here. Usually from the same people who say "the Outlands". I can't say how common it is. What would count as a citation? -- Harveydrone 21:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, it seems it might be commonly used terminology based on what your describing. But I'd suggest it should go into notes section since it doesn't actually lead to an actual article.Baggins (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the Azeroth described here the same as this one? You'd think there would be a difference, or there wouldn't be two different pages. Jorn86 (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Stormwind no longer controls the entire landmass, but it kept the name AFAIK. There is a retcon in there somewhere, so I'm sure facts can be found supporting both sides.--SWM2448 23:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
You could compare it to USA (which many call America) and the continent of (the) America(s). They are seperate entities, but one exists within the other. One is a nation, the other a continent. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Edits

Your last 2 edits really messed up the article Baggins. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Speculation (recovered from removal and put here)

Image:questionmark-medium.png
This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore.

Eastern Kingdoms = Azeroth?

Early previews and interviews discussing World of Warcraft referred to the entire Eastern Kingdoms as Azeroth.[citation needed] This is possibly referring to the map from Warcraft II which depending how its interpreted could imply that the entire eastern kingdoms as a whole is known as Azeroth.[1] However, it should be noted that the manual itself split "Eastern Kingdoms" into Azeroth, Khaz Modan, Lordaeron when describing the domains that the orcs controlled; Azeroth (Blackrock Spire, Northshire, Balor, Stormwind, Black Morass]] and Khaz Modan (Grim Batol, Ironforge).W2Man #?

However according to the manual for the released version of World of Warcraft; it is stated that Azeroth has only "two meanings" in the game and manual; that of world of Azeroth and the southernmost continent of the Eastern Kingdoms.WoWMan 104 However the book and in game there are a few references that could be interpreted as having a third meaning if looked at in a certain way. Certain quotes imply that the entire Eastern Kingdoms can be referred to as "Azeroth" or to the "continent of Azeroth". It is unclear if this is left over text from the pre-release version of the game. Most of these references do not refer to the Eastern Kingdoms as a "continent" specifically.

  • "There are no flight paths across the ocean linking Kalimdor and Azeroth. However, there are other ways to cross the Great Sea between the continents."WoWMan 106
  • "A generation past, the lords of the Burning Legion attempted to destroy the kingdoms of Azeroth by loosing the orcish Horde upon the world."WoWMan 158
  • "...the Argus Wake might run deep through the continent of Azeroth..." [2]

A quote from a World of Warcraft faq implies that entire Eastern Kingdoms is referred to as Azeroth. However the quote does not specifically refer to land as a "continent".

  • Currently, players can explore the lands of Azeroth, Kalimdor, and Outland...[[4]]

Walt Simonson implied that Eastern Kingdoms is called Azeroth in an interview. However, thoe quote does not specifically state that landmass of which he speaks is a continent. However as the quote originates from an interview this does not necessarily represent a verifiable fact.[[5]]

Azeroth = Kalimdor = Lordaeron = Terrestial World (past)?

Lands of Conflict even made a few references that imply that the continent of Lordaeron, before it was named that, was named Azeroth. However, this is somewhat contradictory since the book uses the term "continent of Azeroth" to refer only to the southernmost continent. In most references "Azeroth" either refers to said continent or the world itself. The book instead refers to the the Eastern Kingdoms as the "eastern continents" (pluralized). Of course, this still could be true since the kingdom of Lordaeron, and subsequently the continent of Lordaeron, came along much later in history than the start of the Empire of Arathor. This would also fit because a group left Stromgarde to create the kingdom of Azeroth further south and subsequently named that continent Azeroth, which by this time the northern continent would have been named Lordaeron after the kingdom of Lordaeron's rise and Arathor's decline in the more recent past.

  • Thousands and thousands of years ago, Azeroth was one enormous continent surrounded by the sea. Known as Kalimdor...
  • Azeroth was one land no longer, shattered into many continents and islands, with the Maelstrom at the ocean’s heart...
  • ...the Arathi assured them the land would always belong to all peoples and named the land as a whole in homage to their ancient ancestors: Azeroth."[3]
  • ...some of the survivors had made their way to northern Azeroth and established a new kingdom, called Quel’Thalas...", [4]
  • ...The humans, on the other hand, spent centuries expanding their borders until the Empire of Arathor nearly covered Azeroth.", [5]

However neither of the three quotes specifically refers to the land as a whole as a "continent".

  1. ^ Warcraft II Eastern Kingdoms map
  2. ^ World of Warcraft. Blizzard Entertainment. Hillsbrad Foothills. Magistrate Henry Maleb. Dark Council.
  3. ^ Lands of Conflict, 18
  4. ^ Lands of Conflict, 18
  5. ^ Lands of Conflict, 18

Continued

Point of note as far as I know Azeroth (continent) in the south was actually part of the Arathor empire itself so to state that the Arathi empire "nearly covered Azeroth" could mean that they nearly covered the southern continent of Azeroth. Its less likely to mean they nearly "Azeroth" the world (since there is no evidence of any Arathi humans in Kalimdor). Infact Azeroth continent may have actually been the source of the Arathor rulership considering that Lothar can trace his heritage back to the kings of Arathor.

Also when it says that Arathi named the the "land" Azeroth it also has the alternate implication that "land" equals "world". Remember Azeroth can mean both continent or the world (although I don't think the latter is very likely).. The quote can also imply that Arathi moved south from "Lordaeron" into Azeroth continent, allowing them to name it when they landed there (noting that Azeroth continent was once part of the Arathor empire).

However, if you take the quote into the context of the article as a whole, further on it actually mentions that the Arathi moved north and named new area "Lordaeron". This implies that they started out in Azeroth continent and moved north.LOC 19. While the timing of Arathor Empire seems a bit off we do know that Lordaeron refers to the northern half of the Eastern Kingdoms as a whole thus denying the idea that it was previously known as "Azeroth".

However, since the Arathi Empire included Azeroth and Lordaeron naming their land as a whole, "Azeroth" would be back to square one that the implication that the Eastern Kingdoms as a whole could be called Azeroth.

In addition "northern Azeroth" reference could mean "northern part of the world" not necessarily the continent of Lordaeron. Yes I know Northrend is further north but Quel'Thalas is still effectively in the northern hemisphere.

Alternatively it could mean that they landed in northern Azeroth (continent) and worked their way north to Quel'Thalas (though its not sufficiently detailed for that implication).

But I agree that these references are not particuraly specific in what type of "Azeroth" it means.Baggins (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, upon further research in that section of the book, I noticed that Azeroth under some contexts in that section is being used to refer to the former Kalimdor and the split Kalimdor after the sundering. In which case Azeroth is being used to refer to all "land/world" in general. I.E. it seems to imply that Arathi named the terrestial world (the world's land in general) Azeroth after the Azotha. But use of the term Azeroth becomes muddled in the later paragraphs in the section.Baggins (talk) 07:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
In regards to your last comment, Azeroth would of course refer to Kalimdor before the Sundering because there was only one huge continent existing. The Arathi though were around way after the Sundering when they named their land Azeroth. They thought their land was the only thing left but we actually know there was a Kalimdor, a Northrend, many islands, and who knows what else besides the landmass of the Eastern Kingdoms after the Sundering. As to your first comment(s), I thought that too until I further researched into the book. "Land" does not always equal "world". Like in our early history, every empire, at least before the Roman Empire, thought they controlled all the lands of the world, when it actually was a small part of Earth. So it could mean that Arathor named the "known lands" Azeroth. I don't think the Empire of Arathor was the immense size of the Eastern Kingdoms do you? Also, it says that they met the elves first before they met the dwarves when an elven emissary met them at Strom's gates.LoC 18 We know Strom is not in the southern area of the Eastern Kingdoms. It then says that "their lust for land pull them northward into the mountains. There, they encountered a dwarven expedition gathering supplies, and our two peoples met for the first time."LoC 18 which could mean any mountains north of Strom, capital of the human empire. It also says that "the humans expanded their empire into the northern half of the continent"LoC 19 and we know that the Aerie Peaks, and maybe Northern, was north of Strom and the dwarves could easily have had an expedition there since later on in history they actually settled in the Aerie Peaks, and maybe Northeron. Sometime afterwards, the humans could have then named that northern area they found past the mountains "Lordaeron." due to the fact that it also says that winning the Troll Wars "allowed for the settlement of Lordaeron."LoC 19 If you think about it, as the Arathor Empire declined, city-states emerged correct? Yet they all emerged in the northern area of the Eastern Kingdoms, not south. What happened to the people in the south if the Empire of Arathor spanned all the way down to Strangethorn Vale? The furthest southern nation we know of was the Kingdom of Azeroth, and that kingdom wasn't founded until the empire of Arathor was a shell of its former self and the last of the bloodline had left Stromgarde to move south to create that kingdom (see The Seven Kingdoms). I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that at least the bottom half of present-day Lordaeron (continent) was called Azeroth. The group that went south to create their new kingdom called their new kingdom "Azeroth" and the new land/continent "Azeroth" as a show of honor to their past glory up north. Rolandius (talk - contr) 09:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Personally I think whoever wrote that section muddled up "Azeroth" entirely, throwing it around willy nilly with few discriptions to seperate what it actually meant (other than one or two uses of "continent of", or "world", or "land"). The fact that we are sitting here trying to make sense of it by speculating about it is evidence of this fact. The muddled nature of the source material and length of the speculation may lead to the section being moved to the talk page.Baggins (talk) 09:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, you already removed it from the article so that was fast... Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:04, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, do you have to remove everything? Some of that stuff does have a lot of citations... Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah, thirdly I don't think "Lordaeron = Azeroth = Kalimdor = Eastern Kingdoms = World = What?" because Kalimdor was not ever called Azeroth, and I don't think we know who called the whole world "Azeroth", in-game, except Blizzard. According to what I have read it is a bit confusing. In summary, with citations so there is no "you made it up", going from the farthest past to the present in time, Azeroth was the name of the "known lands" of the Arathi i.e. the bottom half of the current continent of Lordaeron and its capital was Strom, Azeroth was the name of the kingdom, now Stormwind, founded after the fall of the empire of Arathor and subsequently is the name of the continent in the south, Azeroth has been mentioned by some to be the name of the whole of the Eastern Kingdoms in Beta or interviews, and Azeroth is the name of the world because of Blizzard and no one in the "in-game perspective". Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Quotes from the Lands of Conflict to let people decide for themselves

BTW, we do have references to the Stranglehtorn azotha which could have been remnants of the Arathi empire. Azotha can refer to early humans and their ancestors, but its not exactly specific when the term stopped being used exactly. Course the references to azotha in stranglethorn vale are extremely vague, and amounts to knowing pretty much nothing about them.Baggins (talk) 09:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


Here is a selection of quotes from the section that make reference to "continents" or azeroth. Hopefully I have not left out any information that would affect the context of the information, but will show the progression of the material and the muddled uses of Azeroth.

What we know about our world’s earliest history is wrapped in mystery and legend. Thousands and thousands of years ago, Azeroth was one enormous continent surrounded by the sea. Known as Kalimdor, it was an explorer's paradise — danger and adventure just a step away, every river and mountain range completely unmapped.(16)
the Well brought the Kaldorei to heights never before seen on Kalimdor. Their cities and temples spread across the continent and left the other primitive races in awe.
The explosion of the Well of Eternity did far more than destroy the civilization of the elves — it reshaped the entire world. Azeroth was one land no longer, shattered into many continents and islands, with the Maelstrom at the ocean’s heart marking the grave of the Kaldorei. (17)
The surviving tribes of humans sent out intrepid bands to explore the reborn world and to find their long-lost brethren. Slowly, trade routes were established across the revitalized world. However, the savage trolls had survived their own hardships and emerged to once again harry the human merchants and travelers.(18)
The strongest of the human tribes, the Arathi, convinced the scattered threads of humanity to gather under their rule and wove them together into the empire of Arathor. Though some tribes chafed when their destinies were bound together, the Arathi assured them the land would always belong to all peoples and named the land as a whole in homage to their ancient ancestors: Azeroth.
Together, the humans constructed the fortress city of Strom and raised an army that pushed back the trolls. Yet raids by the trolls continued to prevent any large-scale farming and remained a danger to anyone traveling outside the empire’s protection. The leaders of the tribes had gathered in Strom to try to conceive a strategy when word came of an elven emissary at the city gates. The stunned humans, who had long believed all the elves destroyed in the defeat of the Burning Legion, were quick to bring the envoy into their council.The envoy explained that long after the destruction wrought by the Maelstrom, some of the survivors had made their way to northern Azeroth and established a new kingdom, called Quel'Thalas, and a new source of magical power, called the Sunwell.(18)
As their lust for power pushed them to master the arts of magic they were learning from the elves, so did their lust for land pull them northward into the mountains. There, they encountered a dwarven expedition gathering supplies, and our two peoples met for the first time. We had previously encountered the elves; indeed, they came to us first when they needed assistance against the trolls, but the clan leaders had determined that they wanted little to do with a race they found pretentious and overbearing. Yet the clans of Khaz Modan and the humans of Arathor met under a brighter sun, and they soon became close allies.

Let's see so they head north but meet the clans of Khaz Modan, WTF? Remember this is before the creation of the Seven Kingdoms. How did the dwarves of Khaz Modan get through Arathor without running into any humans? REmember on page 31, it states that seven kingdoms were created -1200 years ago (you'll note that includes Stormwind, thus the humans had been that far south before they encountered the dwarves). Arathor was formed in -2,800, and Dwarves awoke in -2,500 to create Khaz Modan. Remember it wasn't until -230 before dwarves started moving north, they had been living only in Khaz Modan before that (see War of the Three Hammers later in the book).

Passing through our lands in peace, the humans expanded their empire into the northern half of the continent, which they named with a combination of words from the human, elven, and dwarven languages: lorn, dwarven for “land”; daer, the human word for “people”; and ronae, “peaceful” in the elven tongue — hence, Lordaeron.

So let's see as I have established dwarves were only in Khaz Modan at this time. Arathi empire is still around at this time, so this is sometime before -1200. Ok WTF again? So uh Arathi were apparently already in the "north" (Strom) but pass through dwarven lands (Khaz Modan) to reach Lordaeron, and name it. Ok, this would have to imply that members of Strom had moved south already and formed Azeroth/Stormwind by this time. So the indivduals traveling north are ones in Stormwind rather than Strom (or the author lost track of where he placed the races).

To many across Arathor and to some on its ruling council, this seemed at best a too-easy path and at worst an abuse of a sacred power. Confronting the wizards took the Empire of Arathor over the brink of civil war as the “magocrats” carved out their own territory where magic could be practiced without restriction. In some places those fearful or distrustful of magic banded close to one another to prevent the mages from taking power, while others compromised and allowed the free use of magic so long as it was policed by Guild overseers. When all was said and done, the sprawling Empire of Arathor had fallen apart into seven separate nations: Lordaeron, Stormwind, Kul Tiras, Stromgarde, Alterac, Gilneas, and Dalaran.(20)

Ok, so -1,200 occurs. The nations split. It won't be for many centureies later that dwarves will actually start moving north due to the war of the Three Hammers and the creation and loss of Grim Batol (67, 100). You can follow that history fact in the APG as well. Like I said the details in that section of LoC are a bit muddled. AS for your question yes citations exist, but that still didn't stop you from overlooking some important details and taking some things out of context. Once those details are taken into account one notices that people having to pass through Khaz Modan to reach Lordaeron being described as "the northern half of the continent" is back to square one with the idea that Azeroth can refer to the Eastern Kingdoms itself.Baggins (talk) 10:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I sort of can't tell your comments from the rest of the quotes except your last edit. They are all smashed into one. I can reply to what I can find. They went north and met a "group" of dwarves, not the whole dwarf civilization and Azeroth/Stormwind was the last of the "seven kingdoms" to be founded. Also, you are forgetting how in the world did they met the elves first if they are all the way down south? They are north around Strom and meet the elves. Afterwards, they met "some" not "all" dwarves. They are then able to meet "all" the dwarves. So my context is about as good as your context looking at the edits you have done in the past. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Also it says "Yet the clans of Khaz Modan and the humans of Arathor met under a brighter sun, and they soon became close allies." after the Troll Wars. So you are trying to say the Arathor jumped south somehow after the Troll Wars and then went north again through some dwarf lands? I don't think so. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I hope I fixed the quotes. But you are still overlooking crucial bits, and relying on some speculation. Yes the dwarves were an "expedition", but it still begs the question how the dwarves managed to bypass the empire without being noticed. The elves are little easier to explain in that they are pretty good at not being seen unless they want to. They had magic. In addition not a difficulty for humans to pass south when one its been established that they were active before the dwarves even awakene, and two dwarves lived underground and could evely be overlooked. But either way the empire is blind to both dwarves and elves. Really not that difficult? "You don't think so?" (I hope that was sarcasm, because its really o that difficult either way) One other note later timelines and references by brann change the date of when humans and darves meet somewhat, to about a millenia or two before "present" in APG for example. This makes it even harder to follow the timelines.

Also its stated specifically in other sources that Lordaeron is the entire northern continent. They didn't name the "northern half of the continent" Lordaeron, the entire continent was named Lordaeron (not just of half). As stated before this is before the seven kingdoms existed, so it can't be referring to kingdom of Lordaeorn. If it only referred to the north, it would be claiming that the south half wasn't named Lordaeron (which would be a bit contradictory).

The fact was Arathor empire was already as far as at least northern Azeroth (continent), before the dwarves moved north can be found in many sources including the reference above. They had to have the land for it to be split off, and this would mean they had to travel through dwarven lands to do it, however they did. The exact dates of when they moved into those southern lands would be speculation at best, its simply never been given. We only know humans existed far south pretty early but not exact date of how early.

...and here is one of the details from Alliance Player's Guide which pretty much reproduced the background for dwarven history explaining it when dwarves first specifically moved into Lordaeron..

...Grim Batol, corrupted by the dark forces unleashed in the war, was uninhabitable. The Wildhammers were invited to live in Ironforge, but King Khardros refused, not willing to relive the shadows of the past. Instead he founded a new kingdom at Aerie Peak, where his people remained on the surface, eventually bonding with the world of nature around them.

So no northern dwarven lands. No Hinterlands until after the Warcraf of the Three Hammers.

Btw, compare the various accounts of the same information from each RPG and you'll notice that the various versions don't always align with each other perfectly.

Course LOC is Brann's point of view anyways and he's not perfectly accurate with his info, he was able to "update" the info with APG and some in Dark Factions, allowing for the discrepencies.Baggins (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's take a little quote from WoW RPG; –4,000: After years of a nomadic lifestyle, the Highborne, now called high elves, establish their new home on Lordaeron. They call it Quel'Thalas, creating their own source of magical energy, the Sunwell.(10) No reference to any "northern Azeroth" in that partciular refrence.Baggins (talk) 12:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

continued

I am saying that they named it Azeroth, the area they were in at least, then later named the place Lordaeron. I don't think the Arathi automagically knew how much lands existed so they just said "we name this land Azeroth" when in present time we see that it was probably a pretty small area. I do not know how many years went by between the two namings, yet we do have citations that say they named the land they were on "Azeroth" when they first borught all the human tribes around there together and then later when more land was discovered, and they were expanding as an empire, they named it "Lordaeron", maybe just the new land or the old land of Azeroth plus the new land. I know it sounds crazy that they met dwarves in the north, but it is an even crazier idea that they lived way south and then came north through Khaz Modan. Why? Because they met the elves first and it was at Strom. How could they met elves at Strom and then go "north" though the dwarven Khaz Modan lands to Lordaeron? A portal? It makes more sense that they went "north", as in north of Strom, and met some dwarves there like the citations say. It also makes sense that when the kingdoms starting leaving the empire, they all were founded in Lordaeron, or technically the southern and central parts of Lordaeron at least, and no where south of Khaz Modan (until Stormwind/Azeroth which was the last kingdom founded and they had to travel south to get there). Rolandius (talk - contr) 12:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't really need a portal to get to the south. Just need to walk, and you don't necessarily have to pass through Ironforge/Dun Morogh either. Badlands, wetlands, loch modan, etc actually go around Dun Morogh. Walking doesn't take magic. So yes a group founded stuff in the north, but its implied that expanded south into northern azeroth thus allowing it to be split from the kingdom when strom fell.

However, there is actually an additional version of events, if you follow other accounts of the history from say history of warcraft. The order is rerearanged a bit. The continent is named Lordaeron before the founding of Arathor. Stormwind isn't founded until long after the fall of strom (rather than strom breaking apart into Azeroth (and the other nations)). It is decendents of the former Arathi empire that discover the continent. The continent is named Azeroth later. This is another one of those chicken or the egg differences like Kaldorei I think.Baggins (talk) 12:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say that the nation of Lordaeron existed before the founding of Arathor? The second part I think I already stated. The empire fell apart except a shell of the former empire at Strom. The decendents of the former Arathi empire royalty went south leaving a small group that wanted to stay at Strom, and this group later called it Stromgarde. The decendents of the former Arathi empire meanwhile went south like I said above to found their kingdom/continent. Rolandius (talk - contr) 12:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry meant continent. ...and no, what I was talking about was in history of Warcraft version is actually closer to what yo just described. STrom never actually reached the continent that would later be named Azeroth. It wasn't until later that their decendents went south.

In the references in the Lands of Conflict, Alliance Player's Guide, and others however Strom already had land in the Azeroth, and thus the kingdom was directly able to split into the "seven kingdoms" when it collapsed.

Perhaps a minor difference, but a difference none the less.Baggins (talk) 12:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Hrm, I dont remember Strom already having land in the Azeroth we know of in the present. I guess I have to look at LoC and APG again. To me it sounded like it does in the articles The Seven Kingdoms and Seven Kingdoms where Dalaran broke away first, then more broke away and the nobles of Strom took off north to found their kingdom of Lordaeron, leaving only the shell of the empire at Strom. Then those whose ancestors were royalty at one time decided to leave south and found the kingdom and subsequently the continent of Azeroth, but some people stayed in Strom creating the kingdom of Stromgarde. I don't see how it could split into seven kingdoms only if it stretched all the way past Khaz Modan down south to "modern" Azeroth. If it was really that huge an empire, don't you think there would be a few more "kingdoms" south of Khaz Modan? Not just one...which had to actually travel south to even get there and was the only kingdom around that south? The version I talked about makes actual sense. The elves even met them at Strom and we know where Strom is at, no where south of Khaz Modan. Rolandius (talk - contr) 13:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
When there are two or more versions telling the same event differently things won't make a lot sense. Yes the version of the story told in the seven kingdoms pages is one version of the verisons. Another version has strom directly splitting into the sevel kingdoms upon collapse. Both versions agree that humans started out in Strom. Just that the empire expanded into northern Azeroth in the RPG version (allowing the empire to collapse and form Stormwnd/Azeroth in the process). In the History of Warcraft version Strom didn't colonize anything in the southern continent (instead Azeroth was colonized long after the fall of the Arathir Empire). In other words in that version Azeroth didn't directly split from Arathor much later.

On a related note the Arathi people didn't even have to pass through Khaz Modan to reach northern Azeroth. They already had Kul Tiras and ships and could have crossed there by boat. How they reached Azeroth in that version simply has never been told as far as I know.

Confronting the wizards took the Empire of Arathor over the brink of civil war as the “magocrats” carved out their own territory where magic could be practiced without restriction. In some places those fearful or distrustful of magic banded close to one another to prevent the mages from taking power, while others compromised and allowed the free use of magic so long as it was policed by Guild overseers. When all was said and done, the sprawling Empire of Arathor had fallen apart into seven separate nations: Lordaeron, Stormwind, Kul Tiras, Stromgarde, Alterac, Gilneas, and Dalaran.LoC 20
The human nation of Arathor grows too large and shatters into seven independent splinter nations — Lordaeron, Stormwind, Kul Tiras, Stromgarde, Alterac, Gilneas and Dalaran.LoC 31
Arathor gets too populous, and internal strife causes it to break apart into seven independent nations: Lordaeron in the north; Stormwind in the south; Kul Tiras, an island, to the west; Stromgarde, north of Khaz Modan; Alterac, south of Lordaeron; Gilneas on the western peninsula; and Dalaran, the mage city south of Alterac. APG 160Baggins (talk) 13:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Hrm, well isn't that near what the other version says? It just sounds more condensed. Instead of going through the whole process like in other lore, it just says basically in a paraphrase manner "There was an empire and eventually it fell into seven kingdoms". That also fits in with Dalaran being an early breakaway kingdom as they didn't get along with many people and broke away first. Also, if the empire was so huge that it stretched all the way to the south, why were there so many (6) kingdoms that emerged in and around Strom but only one south of Khaz Modan? It makes sense that the seventh kingdom, Azeroth/Stormwind, got way down there and met no other kingdoms because they had to travel south away from the empire. Rolandius (talk - contr) 13:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Its not quite the same. In the HoW version there is no way for Azeroth to break from Strom, Azeroth never part of Strom to begin with. In RPG version Azeroth was part of Strom's extensive Empire so that it could be split/splintered/shatter from the empire. In the HoW version Azeroth was discovered and built a long time after the fall of the empire and thus was never part of the empire to begin with. It can't split from something it ever was part of to begin with. It's true the HoW versino is probably the better version, but there definitely two versions.Baggins (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

You still didn't answer the holes in that version you are talking about. Well tell me this. What makes more sense? The version you are talking about, I think, says that the continent is named Lordaeron before the founding of Arathor. Arathor becomes an empire. They have problems with magocrats. The empire then falls apart all at once into seven kingdoms, and for some reason 6 are in the continent of Lordaeron but only 1 is south of Khaz Modan? Also, they hop around the Eastern Kingdoms so that they can go north again through dwarven lands?
Okay now here is the version I think makes sense and it has citations which are above so I don't think I have to repeat them over and over. The Arathi gather other tribes together and make their capital at Strom and call the land "they are on" Azeroth. This would be modern day southern Lordaeron. They don't know at this time that there are other races with other names for their lands. It even says that the humans thought elves didn't exist because of stories they had heard of the elves being destroyed many years ago. We know where Strom is so there isn't any guessing there. The elves meet the humans before the humans meet the dwarves. Yup, sources say that too so we are good there. The elves sent some people to the gates of Strom to meet them and they become friends. After the Troll Wars, Arathor meets some dwarves in the north. Since we know that their capital is at Strom it has to be north of Strom. They then meet the rest of the dwarves sort of like "take me to your leader" but in friendly terms. They soon find out "Azeroth" is not really all theirs or that big since they found out about the elf and dwarf kingdoms. The Arathor empire expands northward now that the Troll Wars have been over and the humans and elves won. The dwarves are friendly so they let the humans move through their lands and the humans find some new areas and call it Lordaeron. Remember, "Lordaeron" has two words in it that are dwarven and elven words so they must have met the dwarves and elves before "discovering" Lordaeron. Meanwhile, the humans now have been taught magic by the elves and the "magocrat" problems start occuring. Then The Seven Kingdoms story comes in. Dalaran is first to leave due to those problems. Afterwards, more kingdoms break away and the nobles even leave Strom to go north and create their base in Lordaeron. Lordaeron then becomes really strong. The Arathi Empire has now become just a shell of what it once had been. The name Lordaeron could have been more popular to use for the whole land intsead of Azeroth because you know in history the "strong" pretty much name things what they want and so Lordaeron probably didn't care for the word "Azeroth" since they had their own name, "Lordaeron". Strom is just a shell so what can they do? Now the people who had ancestor royalty decide to just leave the whole place and they move south, by boat or land, and finally reach an area and in honor of their ancestors name it the kingdom of Azeroth and the land also Azeroth. Up north the name "Azeroth" doesn't exist anymore it is Lordaeron, Lordaeron, Lordaeron. Meanwhile, there is still a group that wants to stay at Strom. They name it Stromgarde. Now all seven kingdoms have left and the Arathor empire is gone. As you can see, south of Khaz Modan there is only one kingdom because the Arathor empire didn't stretch all the way into modern Azeroth. That would have been a huge empire and the citations do not show it being that size. The group connected to royalty had to travel south of the empire to create their own kingdom and I don't see any mentions of other kingdoms around them. If the Arathor Empire was actually that huge, there would have been more kingdoms south that would have also broke away from the empire. If I had some graphical method I could show you much better what I mean, but I think you can understand what I am saying. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
One last thing. By the time of WoW, there would only be two uses for the word Azeroth, three if you count those interviews by that person and the info from the Beta. Azeroth the world and Azeroth the southern continent. The third maybe is the Eastern Kingdoms being called Azeroth as a whole at times. How did the world get called Azeroth? I am not sure in-game. Blizzard called it that. In-game I can only guess that like "Common" being the "international" language of many races, the name "Azeroth" stuck as the name of the world. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


Domains

We need some actual pages on those citations. We know that the humans lost the First War so I don't see how those areas could be domains of the kingdom of Azeroth. In fact, there is a section in the Warcrat II manual (66-68) saying that the orcs now control Blackrock Spire, Balor, Black Morass, etc. Unless you are talking about before the First War before the coming of the orcs? Even then though, the kingdom was not the size of the whole continent. If the continent equaled the kingdom and vice versa, humans would have been on the spot where the Dark Portal was created. We know this did not happen as the humans didn't know about the orcs until the land starting turning bad near the Borderlands and then suddenly Stormwind was attacked. Also, in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, the orcs are in the Black Morass not humans. Also, the whole "Borderlands" area is like it says, an area that is contested and borders the orcs' and humans' territories. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:56, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Land?

Really? Azeroth (land)? There are dozens of mentions of "lands". Land is pretty much whatever you are standing on. This is too vague a title for an article. We might as well make Lordaeron (land) or Kalimdor (land). Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

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