Talk:Beyond the Dark Portal

So we're getting two authors for this. Rosenberg does the human part and Golding the orcs? That's my bet. Warchiefthrall 22:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean Golden does the retcons.--SWM2448 22:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Surprisingly Consistant

Reading this I'm still amazed at how consistant they are with the plot in terms of faithfully following the game, especially considering Tides of Darkness was, let's face it, a complete mess :P I mean, the Horde even screws with the Kul'Tiras navy a bit, which was something I was SURE would be cut from the book as it was kind of an incidental campaign mission. I guess this is the benefit of a linear campaign structure? :P

The actual writing is mixed, I don't know how else to describe it. It wavers from great to awful (i.e. see Rend's dialog.. and seriously, no one should ever use the word "Dunno" in a WarCraft setting... also, Dwarves do not sound like Scotty from Star Trek.. they have an accent, yes. But they come off as a bad stereotype here), which may have something to do with the two writers. I'm not sure what to say, other than it almost seems schizophrenic at times. Like you get conflicting sentences right next to each other, which ends up sounding confusing... The writing actually takes a sharp turn once the Alliance gets on Draenor, which kind of makes me wonder if Christie took over at that point...

Oh, and bah to going with retconned Day of the Dragon *after* these events from the War 3 manual (I still say that was a mistake that somehow then became the lore). They are so good at following the source material, but still ignore the MANY lines about Alexstrasza already being freed from that game... *sigh* They made it work, granted, but yeah, *sigh* --WarlockSoL (talk) 23:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Day of the Dragon IS set after BtDP. Two years after, according to Blizz's most recent timeline. You have to take into account that a vast majority of Warcraft II has been retconned out of the lore... --Joshmaul (talk) 07:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is in the timeline but if you play BtDP and then read the book (or at least the text given in the Warcraft III manual)you will notice that Alextrasa was captured once and then rescued two times. This is told in Beyond the Dark Portal game: With the Dragon Queen Alextrasza rescued and the Dragonmaw clan captured by the Alliance..., we know Alextrasa was freed but then this is told in Warcraft III manual in the Day of the Dragon text: Rhonin and his companions, aided by dwarven resistance fighters, succeeded in destroying the Demon Soul and freeing Alexstrasza from the orcs’ control. If we consider that DoTD is after BtDP then Alextrasa is liberted twice. ps: i havent read Beyond the Dark Portal book. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 05:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure Joshmaul knows that, any major lore editor here does. Read what he said: It's a retcon, it sucks, etc.. weve all been through this. She wasn't rescued twice, her rescue was just moved by Blizzard for whatever reason. I don't like it either but i is what it is. Lets move on. We know the new deal with the latest book. Kinda strange...but it makes how the situation with various things was at that time work (details when spoiler ban is lifted). Warthok Talk Contribs 06:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Not much Blizzard could do, given that players still have the ability to create new dragons in the Orc campaign. (I know that gameplay's not necessarily representative of everything in-universe, but Rosenberg certainly seems to be hewing as close to it as he can—at least, that's the only explanation that I can come up with for Tides of Darkness's claim that there were only a dozen paladins total.) Andrew Timson (talk) 21:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Gameplay can be ignored entirely, in a few cases. Rosenberg didnt have a problem doing so with the forest trolls. No meantion of the Bleeding Hollow still having forest trolls allies or any forest trols making it to draenor. The route he took with dragons most likely has little to do with archaic Warcraft 2 gameplay, but rather he chose that direction for it's storyline elements, as they were a huge part of wacraft 2 and it's kinda hard to ignore them with the black flight's current presence on Outland in WoW.Warthok Talk Contribs 21:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It was a retcon, but one that really did not need to be made. I still say it was a mistake in the War 3 manual that got blown up into a full retcon. In BtDP, Alexstrasza had been freed, therefore the Horde *had* to go to the Black Dragonflight for new dragons. That's all there was to it. There is nothing in Day of the Dragon that indicates it should take place after BtDP, and in fact, there are even a few things that suggest it does *not*, such as mention of the Alliance on the border of Khaz Modan ready to take Grim Batol (which the War 3 manual even retcons!) and "eminations from the Dark Portal" which should not be eminating if it was destroyed by Khadgar...

Anyways, there was no reason to move it. It doesn't help the story in any way, it was just a weird, pointless retcon. I think, given the retcon, Rosenburg did handle the situation rather well, but I still don't think the retcon needed to be done in the first place. --WarlockSoL (talk) 02:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that what is told in BtDP (the game) didn't take place entirely. There is the Human campaign and the Orc campaign, not every mission of them can be considered as lore. Take for example the fall of Lordaeron in "WCII - Tides of Darkness" or the destruction of Dalaran in both WCII games. Can we consider these events as lore? --N'Nanz (talk) 08:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a big difference between the Tides of Darkness and the Beyond the Dark Portal campaigns - namely in that in ToD both campaigns take place simultaniously and overall, Blizzard didn't plan it well in terms of continuity - both sides "win". Beyond the Dark Portal is different though - it follows a specific order - Horde campaign, then Alliance campaign (there is a tiny bit of overlap which the novel covers very well). So while ToD *had* to remove some missions "in the lore" because of inconsistancies, BtDP didn't. Though getting towards the end of the novel, they sort of retconned some of the Alliance missions - like the alliance with the Laughing Skull Clan (which I assume was sort of "morphed" into Gruul) and a few other things.

Regarding Dalaran, the novel actually does cover it. They can't actually "destroy" Dalaran like in the game, because frankly, how is a game without triggers going to show Death Knights sneaking into Dalaran to steal the Eye of Dalaran? It can't. So they stick Dalaran on the map and say "go blow it up" as that's all they can really do. Frankly, he could have done something similar with ToD, but that book was missing so many other things, it doesn't surprise me he didn't. Really, that book needed to be two books - he just tried to cram too much into such a small space, that it felt like he was just checking items off a list. --WarlockSoL (talk) 03:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The orc whom assists Khadgar after Nerzhul gets away is from the Laughing Skull. Something i hope was added in homage to the original storyline (I'm a half-full sort of guy). That wasn't the only time i noticed something similar, though other specific examples fail to come to mind at the moment. Oh right Kurdran's capture. Little things that bear no resembelence to the events in warcraft 2 but at least aknowledge they still happened, albeit in a different way. They were nice touches that i at least saw as saying that they didn't ommit these parts out of ignorance and laziness, but rather were conscious choices made for other reasons, possibly trying to squish everything into one book like for ToD, or other literary reasons. Not saying retcons are a good thing, but they are a reality.Warthok Talk Contribs 04:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree the novel was a lot more consistent than Tides of Darkness. The cameos are either useful or kept to a minimum (with Rend and Maim being the latter). However I think the plot got a little bloated since the authors included a number of references to the later games (one I liked was the scene with Muradin observing Artha's "fighting" technique). The one scene I wished was cut was Lord Prestor's little appearance since it really had no place in the plot except as a nod to Day of the Dragon (references are fine with me until they feel shoehorned into the plot). (Omega2010 (talk) 06:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC))

The way it seems to me, Prestor was much more of a background player than during that particular crisis following the events of BtDP. He was the one who suggested that Terenas declare martial law in Alterac. Though the real question is (since we know Prestor was actually Deathwing) - how in the name of all that's holy did he get back to Azeroth? I read through the book and saw no reference to Deathwing after the battle with Gruul (which was actually kinda cool BTW - most people would be terrified of a Dragon Aspect, but Gruul's all "Screw you" and tackles him!) when Khadgar gets the Skull of Gul'dan. --Joshmaul (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, maybe they were trying to follow the game. BTDP the game never explains it either, even though it seems that was always Blizzard's intention (he was to show up in WarCraft Adventures, so even before they went retcon-happy he was supposed to be in Azeroth). --WarlockSoL (talk) 04:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned, Prestor's little cameo really had no place in the plot (though Deathwing appears to Gorefiend as Prestor, he isn't named as such). However, Deathwing's introduction to the death knight was a great scene and he does add to the plot at this point (Gruul and Khadgar fighting Deathwing was also a cool scene; Khadgar had a rather ingenious solution in temporarily defeating Deathwing though I doubt he'll fall for it again). Despite the recent retconning in WoW, I think Beyond the Dark Portal still meshed well with later events. Now I wonder if Blizzard is planning to adapt Reign of Chaos... (Omega2010 (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC))

Arator: A question

I'm a little curious, considering Arator is supposed to be the son of Turalyon and Alleria - exactly when did these two have the time to conceive a child? It seems to me that in the earlier portions of the novel that there was this emotional distance between them (mainly because Alleria had essentially turned into pre-Frostmourne Arthas - a vengeance-fuelled lunatic) and there's no mention of any children. Though it seems obvious to me that other members of the Expedition - or at least Danath - knew he existed prior to the Expedition, and his comment about his only being a child when the Expedition went through the Portal implies that he was born...probably shortly after the Second War.

Unless I missed something in the novel, there's no mention at any time of Alleria having birthed a child - you would think something this important would be mentioned! --Joshmaul (talk) 16:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Arator was conceived much later (or you can even say Arator was conceived during Turalyon and Alleria's evening before they set out for the Skull of Gul'dan). However I wonder when and where Turalyon and Alleria disappeared to? (Omega2010 (talk) 07:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC))

Turalyon's and Alleria's "disappearance" is never described in the novel (though apparently eventually it happens "somehow"), so it's likely he was conceived sometime after the novel ends. --WarlockSoL (talk) 02:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't link up with what Arator says, though. He clearly said - upon speaking to him in Honor Hold - that he was a child when the Expedition left. As that was 2-3 years after Turalyon and Alleria first met, I think he would have been born somewhere between then and when the Expedition left. But it still confuses me because the fact that they had a child was not even mentioned, even though at least Danath would have known who he was prior to the Expedition's departure. --Joshmaul (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I guess it was probably that flashback sequence then :P You know, where Alleria "was cold" and Turalyon "made her warm" (har har har) --WarlockSoL (talk) 22:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I haven't encountered Arator in Outland yet (sadly my highest level character is still too low for Outland) but if so then the novel doesn't jive with Arator's comments. I would have assumed that Arator was born in Outland just from reading the the novel but the game is telling us the opposite.

Arator's hanging out in Honor Hold. He was born in Azeroth and remained there while his parents went to Draenor. When the portal was reopened, he quickly joined up with the Alliance forces going through in the hopes of finding his long-lost parents. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Which basicly translates to saying Alleria had a child, didn't tell Turalyon about him, and didn't take a very active part in rasing him(consistant for the mother of a half elf). Considering she cared more about avenging her realatives and to an extent, seeking to join them in death, this makes her a fairly terrible mother.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Well unless she didn't see Turalyon for several months (unlikely, but I guess it could be possible) I think it would've been a bit hard for him not to notice that she was pregnant. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Its suggested they didn't see eachother for quite some time after the first time they slept together, or atleast that she was distant and drifted away. Its likely they separated before she started to show. If he knew she had his child, I think he would have been more agressive in trying to get incontact with her than "I wrote, you never answered", unless he's a deadbeat father ontop of her being a neglectful mother. After reading the book, I have an easier time seeing her as a bad parrent than him.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

This is what occurred to me as well, given the information about the relation after their first night together and leading up to the invasion of Draenor, it seems the most likely course of events. LastStand (talk) 16:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)