Talk:Burning Legion

From WoWWiki

Contents 1 Servants 2 Updates from Beta 3 Illidan? 4 Legion image. 5 machines? 6 War of the Ancients 7 Leader 8 Twilight Hammer Clan and Dark Horde still alligned to the Legion? 9 Dimensius and Voidwalkers part of the Legion? 10 Lords and notable former allies 11 Command structure 12 Third Invasion?

Servants

It seems that the Legion's ability to summon more demons into the newly spoiled worlds is tied with the power of the beings from the given world which serve them. I mean, how Archimonde is unable to erect the magic shield to cut Kalimdor from the power of the Well of eternity if such magic is within the power of Manoroth? ( The Well of Eternity tilogy )

Sign your posts, please. Archimonde was probably able to. He didn't during the War because A) the night elves already knew how to take down he shield and B) he wanted to show them how weak and feeble they were even with the Well. During the Second Invasion, he didn;t because there was no single source of magic to cut off. --Ragestorm 11:47, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

"he wanted to show them how weak and feeble they were even with the Well."

Where was that stated? --Austin P 20:11, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Updates from Beta

Just a few notes from the Beta test. First of all Magtheridon is alive but not doing so well, trapped in the dungeons of Hellfire Citadel. (But he's bloody talkative!) Also the Mistresses of Pain and Torment are not singular people in the Beta like they were in WC3, but there's lots of them running around the place. ~~ Silvermist

Illidan?

Illidan is listed under the Burning Legion power structure, as are Kael and Vashj and thier respective races. But can Illidan really be considered part of the Burning Legion? He served them faithfully for only until he failed to destroy Northrend and, after a little talking to Kil'jaeden, up to his duel with Arthas. If he was truly loyal to the legion, wouldn't he be trying to reinvade Azeroth instead of sitting around in Outland hoping Kil'jaeden doesn't check up on him, or has it been confirmed in the expansion that Illidan is back with the Legion?--Acidic 16:49, 16 November 2006 (EST)

I have also been real puzzled about that. As it seems now, Illidan got a faction of his own, and aren't part of the Burning Legion. I vote we change the page.--Odolwa 01:22, 12 December 2006 (EST)

I agree.--Ragestorm 19:28, 11 December 2006 (EST)

Legion image.

I have removed the picture showing the Legion in an overall perspective, which was created using the Warcraft III mapeditor-tool.

I consider this cannon, as it does not provide a true image of the Burning Legion-rankings and military resources, regarding both lore and the game in itself. I think many will find it confusing, especialy those who do not know much of the lore in this game, and I believe it is the image of the Burning Legion within the creator of that picture's head, and not that of either Blizzard Entertainment or many other fans.

Jarc.

And what, pray, do you propose to replce it with? The image shows various members of the Legion arrayed in front of Kil'jaeden, their current leader. If you find a suitable replacement image, please let us know.

Word usage: if you consider this canon, then it means you think it's correct according to lore. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Jarc 09/02 : I apologize for the incorrect word usage, I ofc ment "non-canon".

First of all, we do NOT know who holds current power of the various demonic races (Kil'jaeden is supreme commander, true) - it is speculations, as it also says on this site - so creating a picture that graphicly shows the ranks of various individuals, is both misguiding and in my eyes, violation of the lore.

Secondly, using an image that was created by an amateur who is not, in any way, associated officually with Blizzard Entertainment, is borderline fan-faction, and that is NOT what we are here to do, now is it? If I want a picture that shows the military ranks of the Human Empire - which is by far smaller than that of the Burning Legion, should I just make a map in a WC3-mapeditor and post it here under the section "humans"?

Also, I might add, even taking into consideration that much of the info posted on this site is speculations made by fans, the picture is STILL wrong. As an example: It shows a red dreadlord as the left-hand man of Kil'jaeden, using the Tichondrius-model. Mephistroth is speculated/assumed to have taken the position of Tichondrius, but the only time he appeared in the game, he was blue and used a standard dreadlord model... Who is the dreadlord showed left of Kil'jaeden? He must certainly have a high position within the legion ranks in order to gain the spot that he has, to bad I've never heard of him...

And lastly, I do not have a "suitable replacement", because there, apparently, is none at the moment. My suggestion? We don't use a picture that shows the rankings within the Burning Legion, before an official (!!) picture has been posted on a Blizzard-approved community site.

I have, yet again, removed the picture.

I still don't see how it's misleading. Kil'jaeden and other racial leaders (not named, barely recognizable), and the ranks of the Legion arrayed before them. Regardless of their relation to each other, Dreadlords, Eredar, succubi, and doomguard are higher in rank than felguard. The only thing I find misleading is that Kil'jaeden probably isn't that tall. And if you wish to remove all unofficial pictures, I must warn you that you're in for a huge amount of work.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:04, 8 February 2007 (EST)

- You are missing my point:) In a very general way, the picture is fine, but it is still incorrect, as we do not know who's the current leader of the various demonic races. That fact that it shows succubi and Nathrezim as higher ranked than felguards is great, but it needs to keep it so all the way through. I just think it is a very touchy issue, as we honestly don't have much information regarding the infastructure of the Burning Legions millitary ranks and leadership.

Use the picture, but I strongly disagree.

Please don't edit old posts, it ruins the flow of the discussion. I'm not sure how much experience you have with the WC3 map editor, but the color of a unit depends on what team you put it in- even though Mephistroth was blue in-game, he appears red if you put him on the red team. Hence, that image implicative of Mephistroth, regardless of color and model. Similarly, that eredar could be Kil'jaeden's main agent (his name escapes me at the moment), and that Pit Lord is probably Azgalor. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:36, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Don't remove this image. It is really well made gives a Wehrmacht-like perspective on the Burning Legion, which represents very well what I (and I hope, some other people) think is the Burning Legion. Congratulations =)--K ) (talk) 05:27, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

That symbol that appears in the smoke and on the thingys in the forge camps could be their flag/crest, is a better image of that in The art of burning crusaide? I CAN NOT FIND THAT BOOK ANYWHERE!--SWM2448 18:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone find it unusual that considering the sheer scale of the Burning Legion they do not have a symbol? You'd think Sargeras would have at least created some kind of unifying theme to keep the rabble together. --V - Talk / Spam 10:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

We've probably seen it already, just not identified it. You're right though- given that we know some forces opposed the Burning Legion, and given how arrogant Archimonde and Mannoroth were, you'd think some symbol would have been made. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I still think it is the V shaped head in the smoke.--SWM2448 01:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I take it you're referring to this symbol? :)

You could be right. Or, it could be that the symbol of the Legion is the one used by the Shadow Council.

As a final alternative... it could be that Blizzard is following the old Warhammer theme and using an eight-pointed star, as you can see on Archimonde's codpiece and Sargeras' "medallion" (though this is a bit small, and not so clear). However, I doubt Blizzard is that unimaginative. --V - Talk / Spam 23:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The V-head thing is also here on the Upperdeck.com March of the Legion page. --SWM2448 23:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded this one from the art thing.--SWM2448 18:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

machines?

I remembered some type of cool machines in WC3 TFT...they appaered to be burning legion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bas (talk · contr).

You are refering to the Infernal Contraptions, I think they have been upgraded/retconned into Fel Reavers.--SWM2448 21:40, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

If they've been retconned into anything it'd be Fel Cannons, not Fel Reavers... Of course, that's assuming that they don't exist simply because they haven't appeared yet in WoW. - Dark T Zeratul 21:51, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

I doubt there is any retcon going on. Infernal Contraptions held a different use than Fel Cannons or Fel Reavers. Also remember scale of WoW doesn't allow one to see every single thing that exists in the Warcraft Universe.Baggins 21:57, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

"Machines" could also be another was of saying "constructs," like Infernals. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:19, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

War of the Ancients

The info on the sundering is still using the old history, this was all ret-conned in the War of the Ancients Trilogy, I suggest an update be performed to bring it more inline with the rest of the current lore/canon Rukia 21:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What specifically are you looking at? I just reviewed it, most of it works in either case to my eyes. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Specifically the information on Illidan. Illidan played a much more active role in closing the portal and left for different reasons in the revised history. His role of a double agent was very much more pronounced in the War of the Ancients History, he didn't leave just to save the well as was the original story. Rukia 15:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Leader

Who will leed after Kil'jaeden is defeated?(If he dies) Airiph/T/C/B 18:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sargeras is the leader   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 18:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

He's not necessarily "defeated", just pushed back through the portal. Kirkburn  talk  contr 20:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

But the question is who will lead the burning legion if Kil'Jaeden dies, right? I am not sure, but it could be that Talgath would become the new leader. He is very high in rank after all, and also an eredar, who tend to make good leaders due to their high intelligence. Or it could be Azgalor, Mephistroth, or some other high-ranking demon. --Mesethusela 03:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Talgath was an agent of Kil'jaeden, but we actually don't know what his official rank is. Same for Mephistroth- though we assume him to be leader of the Dreadlords, I don't think that's certain. Azgalor, we do know that he succeded Mannoroth. All in all, we don't know enough to say who comes after Kil'jaeden. Then again, don't ignore the whispers that Sargeras is still out there in the shadows... --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

My bet is that once Kil'jaeden gets pushed back through the portal, he'll get sent back to the Twisting Nether where he'll brood for a while, until the Burning Legion can recover. Warchiefthrall 23:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually an Ogri'la quest says demons don't die, rather after that they're reincarnated. So maybe he'll get reincarnated too. And someone pointed out his death animations don't actually point to death, just getting sucked back into the portal or something.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

In Lore demons have died. I am not sure if they can come back, and if they can how they can do it. Remember demon types go from Sargeras all the way down to an imp. In WoW demons can die of course. I haven't done any Ogri'la quests though.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 16:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Twilight Hammer Clan and Dark Horde still alligned to the Legion?

Well they have been fighting each other at blackrock spire. But a blademaster of the Blackrock Clan said in Warcraft III that they were the true servants of the legion. And the Twilight Hammer allied with Gul'dan and the Shadow Council that still serve the Legion, but now they apear to be serving the Old Gods: C'thun, the one of Darkshore and Ragnaros (elemental lord). Can somebody tell me if these two groups still serve the Burning Legion? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 06:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My theory: The demon-worshipping Blackrock orcs that Arthas and Kel'Thuzad met in Warcraft III was probably a group of orcs cut away from the main Blackrock Clan in Blackrock Spire. This group of orcs was exterminated by the Scourge, which explains why they are not present in WoW.

As for the Twilight's Hammer Clan has, as you say: They left the Legion to serve the Old Gods instead.--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Dimensius and Voidwalkers part of the Legion?

Really? The quests from the Protectorate to take Dimensius down make no mention of the Legion, surely something they'd want to tell any adventurers willing to help. For that matter, given Kael's loyalty to the Legion, why would Dimensius and the voidwalkers with him be interfering with Kael's Manaforge operations?

I always thought the Voidwalkers were more akin to shadow elementals. They share the same basic appearance as other elementals, even down to the shackles they wear; they don't act evil, aside from consuming life and energy, they don't seem to have any particular plan or agenda, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing them interact with other demons, or even be near any members of the Legion. Ilmyrn 19:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The Voidwalker page explains it (albeit without proper citation, so maybe not). Though they are as close to shadow elementals as you can get (the shackles/bracers doing the same thing), I heard they do not use the "elemental template" in the RPG, so they are just demons.--SWM2448 19:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Even if they are technically demons, though, that does not automatically make them part of the Burning Legion. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty much what I meant, though they may be demons in a technical, it doesn't seem like they have any affiliation at all, certainly not to the Legion. I should have been more claer when I said they were like elementals. I meant in behavior, not in, uh, essence, or whatever. Ilmyrn 01:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Lords and notable former allies

I think these sections need cleaning up. I'm not convinced that Xavius, Kael or Gul'dan count as lords of the Burning Legion, considering that they were leading their race/faction in service to the Legion, not on par with individuals such as Tichondrius or Mannoroth. Also, "Notable Former Allies of the Burning Legion" is rapidly expanding to "Anyone loosely affiliated with or screwed over by the Burning Legion." Any thoughts? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I am in agreement with you. It also seems to be the subject of a few minor (and pointless) edit wars.--SWM2448 23:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd suggest moving Kazzak, Xavius, Gul'dan and Kael to a new section entitled "notable underlieutenants" or somesuch, and examine "notable" allies case-by-case. "Lords" should only list Sargeras, KJ, Arch, Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Azgalor and maybe Mephistroth (who needs to be completely reexamined). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

There, let's fiddle with that. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd even count Xavius anywhere remotely close upper levels. He was more like a dog tortured by his master, and then unleashed on the populous. Yes, he later became an Ancient but he's no where near the level of Sargeras. Kazzak is the hand of KJ, not Sargeras. Gul'dan was a tool, and so is Kael pretty much.Baggins (talk) 01:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Hence the new section. You think Xavius should be cut completely? Speaking of which, I think the "Command structure" has gotten far too out of hand. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Xavius and Guldan were just tools to the Burning Legion. Xavius helped summon Sargeras and converted many Highborne into Satyr, and Guldan and the Shadow Council helped corrupt the Orcs. Where do we put them?Cholchester1221 12:04 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Xavius still belongs in the article somewhere, since he was a creation of the Burning Legion, and 'all' satyrs are minions of the burning legion. I was just saying he's definitely not on par with Sargeras.Baggins (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, they definetly did not belong in the "lords" section. As to their importance to the Legion, we don't know for certain if the satyrs and orcs were to be discarded after their usefulness had ended, or if they were to be drafted into the Legion as permanent minions, both of which are possibilities; I'd say leave them where they are, as they're only former allies because they're dead.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

But if someone was to place Xavius and Guldan in the former allies because they are dead does that not mean they should place Archimonde, Tichondrius and Mannoroth in the former allies section as well? They were major leaders but they are dead and they have replacements.--Cholchester1221 17:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree; former allies should not be "former" due to death, unless they were killed by their higher-ups. Xavius was still part of the Legion right up until his demise, as was Kael'thas. Gul'dan, on the other hand, was disowned by Kil'jaeden after their genocide of the Draenei (though since he was being used by Sargeras, I suppose he could still count). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

So they stay where they are, then (not the the former allies, under "notable commanders", which should probably be renamed)? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Someone should rename the notable commanders section. But what should they rename it? I also think that Kazzak should be placed in "Lords" section. He is the was the Field Commander on Azeroth and is now the Field commander in Outland as well of being leader of the Doomguards. --Cholchester1221 10:40, 14 June 2008

Command structure

This section needs either an excision or a major redesign. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden didn't command separate forces, they held equivalent rank with different purposes, and the section had drastically altered from rank speculation to a badly formatted list of everyone loosely affiliated with the Legion. Any thoughts? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Third Invasion?

Anyone know why Highlord Kruul's attack is called a Third Invasion but the battles of Aegywynn and the dragons against the Avatar of Sargeras and his huge demon army in Northrend does not count as an invasion?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 16:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)