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Talk:Cannibalism

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AccuracyEdit

I'm not sure about some of the listings in this article? Ogres eating murlocs? Actually alot of races eat murlocs :p... There are quite a few recipes in the game that use murloc parts :p. Other than that, it needs alot of citations.

The article hardly looks at the fact that written lore specifically calls species like "trolls" or "forsaken" as cannibalistic while constrasting them with other races, that are not considered cannibals; blood elves, tauren, orcs, humans, dwarves etc.Baggins 22:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Since murlocs are considered humanoid in game, and lore shows they have a society, albiet a primitive one, but advanced enough to engage in trade with other races, and cannibalism is defined as one sapient/humanoid race eating another, then it definatly seems that eating a murloc would qualify one as a cannibal.Tweak the Whacked 22:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"cannibalism is defined as one sapient/humanoid race eating another"
Citation please. There appears to be more to the definition that simply that, as the lore doesn't consider races like orcs, humans, etc as "cannibals". This article makes the races all look like hyppocrites for getting onto other races that are considered true 'cannibals' according to the published lore.
Also murlocs are hardly primitive, read the murloc article. But for some reason they don't seem to fall under the concept of "cannibalism" as portrayed in published lore.Baggins 22:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Its the general assumption, as ogres are considered cannibalistic for eating orcs, centaur are considered cannibalistic for eating tauren, and trolls are considered cannibalistic for eating pretty much everyone. The reason eating murlocs doesn't count could be as simple as its not very widely practiced, its not common knowledge that some food contains murloc, or that ingame food used to restor health isn't considered offical lore by outside sources.Tweak the Whacked 22:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

You have noticed that all your first examples were "mammals" right? The qualitive appears to be that if two races eat each other are of the same biological kingdom, i.e. mammals then it would be cannabilism. Where as mammals eating fish or other seafood (Makrura) is not considered cannablism. I'm pretty sure that murloc and makrura eating is actually mentioned to be pretty common in the RPG, but it is never considered cannibalism. Basically its cannabilism of hairy beings eat each other.Baggins 23:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Very well, I'll go through and remove murloc eating as a form of cannibalism, though I assume this also means murlocs should be removed from the list as well, unless there is a source for them eating eachother.

Also I tried to add something on how some trolls seem to practice cannibalism as just a food source and others, such as Ana Bloodteeth, seem to have more ritual purposes for it, but I don't know how to add citation. The Sundering page 138 and Tides of Darkness page 63 point to forest and dark trolls pracicing cannibalism casually, as if just for food, while Ana's story gives it a more spiritual context.Tweak the Whacked 23:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to help you with references to "cannibalism" later. There is plenty of stuff on trolls, being considered cannabalistic races.Baggins 23:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The murloc section has been removed, though if we can find a source calling them cannibalistic, or the practice of eating them cannibalism, I say it should be put back in.Tweak the Whacked 23:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, we would just need to figure what they do that is considered "canibalistic", and why other races doing the reverse isn't considered cannibalistic. Some of this article may fall under "speculation" if we don't have a specific definitions of what Blizzard means when they say "cannibals".

This quote might be important (its relating to Forsaken and troll cannibalism);

Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act.HPG 31

Baggins 23:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of our NPOV policy, but I'd like to ask what PoV that quote is from before its added, incase it would be best to say something along the lines of "Some believed:*insert quote*". The titans considered troggs eating other troggs unacceptable(though whether this was on moral ground or not isn't really confirmed), and they are neither good, neutral, nor intelligent.Tweak the Whacked 00:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

That specific quote? Its in one of the non-brann sections of the book. I.E. ability lists, new race biography, written by the designers. Its partially game rules although in the rpg game rules are often written as lore and merged into lore. Actually troggs are considered a 'chaotic neutral or evil race' according to Monster GuideMG 135. Although while they are considered sentient, as mentioned, their "intelligence" is debatable, 'stupid creatures only barely above the level of beasts'MG 135.Baggins 00:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
On a related note while troggs have been said to be cannibalize other troggs, they haven't been stated to be "cannibals" of other races as far as I know. Thus in most sources the cannibalism isn't even brought up.Baggins 00:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Troggs are considered cannibals by atleast one offical source, the disc in Ulda. But as you've said, our primary problem seems to be defining cannibalism within the context of the WoW universe.Tweak the Whacked 00:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the example of cannibalism you gave for troggs, is the rather earth based definition of eating ones own species, I.E. a dog eating a dog, basically. Its definitely worth having in this article as a reference, all though it needs a proper citation, and hopefully the direct quote. However, i'm not sure there are other references to them eating other species, and it being called "cannibalism". So we are back to Blizzard's mysterious criteria, that we don't seem to have a clue aboutBaggins 00:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeti and wendigoEdit

In published lore they are mostly treated as animals (beasts) rather than sapient species. I'm not sure if you could call something akin to a gorilla, eating other races "cannibalism".Baggins 22:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've given the page updates today, adding the yeti/wendigo, the bonechewer orcs, and that ogres are known to eat orcs and other races(the parts abotu murlocs were inplace when I found the page), and I was about to add gnolls as well, given their tendancy to see other races as "More bones to gnaw on".

In regards to the yeti and wendigo, after reading their pages and doing several quest related to them, I've got the impression they are considered something more along the lines of cavemen, above animals but below other humanoids, and one of their pages specifically calls them cannabalistic, which alone should warrent their mention here, and if not, should be changed to predatory.Tweak the Whacked 22:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

They are cannabalistic in as much as they have been known to eat other's of their same species, as far as I remember in the published lore.Baggins 22:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That will be ammended, then.Tweak the Whacked 22:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Troll cannibalismEdit

Here is some information on troll cannibalism;

In contrast to their wily jungle troll cousins, forest trolls are savage and unrelenting creatures. Not only are they cannibals like other trolls, forest trolls live for slaughtering lesser races, especially the high elves, whom they despise.HPG 9
Historically, trolls are cannibals, and have learned to consume flesh to accelerate their own healing. Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act. A cannibalized corpse is befouled.HPG 31
The Darkspear trolls come from a dark and bloodthirsty history of sacrifice, cannibalism and black magic. They consider spirits to be individuals much like living creatures. Spirits are greedy, hostile and dangerous. Trolls also believe their ancestors linger on as jealous spirits who miss the land of the living and require blood sacrifices to appease them.
Trolls sacrifice and eat their enemies. They conduct these practices for two reasons. First, they believe the sacrifice of sentient creatures appeases malicious spirits. Second, they believe that after death, an enemy’s spirit can visit misfortune on its killer. By consuming the flesh of their enemies, trolls believe they can also consume their enemy’s spirit, or at least damage it enough to render it impotent.
The orcs’ influence tempers the Darkspear trolls’ spiritual beliefs. The trolls willingly support Thrall and the Horde, and they understand that their destructive rituals offend their allies. Under Thrall’s tutelage, the Darkspear trolls abandoned the sacrifice of sentient creatures and took up animal sacrifice instead. These trolls no longer eat their enemies, but practice other methods of trapping, injuring or destroying enemy spirits. These methods include witch doctor blessings, the burning of enemy hearts, drowning corpses and head-shrinking.
Most members of the Horde look askance at the practice of head-shrinking, but consider it a step up from human sacrifice and cannibalism. Some trolls have techniques to shrink skulls as well, which involve removing key pieces and reconstructing the skull as a smaller version using animal parts and resins to hold it together.HPG 93
In most tribes, jungle trolls regularly practice cannibalism. Jungle trolls believe that by eating the flesh of their enemies, they not only appease the spirit of the deceased but also consume a portion of that spirit. Thus, by cannibalizing fallen foes, jungle trolls make sure that the mischievous spirits of their enemies do not visit misfortune upon them. They thus have no qualms about devouring an enemy defeated in combat, be he troll or not. Though until recently the Darkspear trolls adhered to these ancient beliefs, their interaction with the Horde has taught them restraint and other virtues. Other beliefs, especially those of the orcs, also “pollute” their ancient traditions...The Darkspear tribe no longer practices cannibalism — at least not openly.HPG 93
Darkspear tribe are an entirely different group; before the Third War, they lived in the Broken Isles, on an island near the Maelstrom, practicing their ancient cannibalistic variety of voodoo and tainted shamanism.HPG 166
In general, however, the tauren get along with the orcs well and the trolls almost as well; there’s still a bit of distrust for the Darkspears, knowing that they only recently abandoned voodoo and cannibalism.HPG 181

Its important to note that only the Forsaken, and trolls are considered cannibals in HPG, for some reason centaur are not listed under the cannibal list. The bonechewer are mentioned in passing as having been a cannibalistic orc tribe. --Baggins 00:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

While discribed as cannibals by some sources, or seemingly meeting the criteria of cannibalism as discribed regarding the trolls, the status of these races as cannibals is unconfirmed.

I put this sentence in regarding the other listed cannibalistic races that meet the criteria met yet are not refered to as cannibals. Is that alright for now?Tweak the Whacked 00:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well we still don't know what the mysterious criteria Blizzard is going by. In some cases they are using the earth definition troggs eating troggs. Specifically called cannibalism. By the way we still need to get exact quote and citation on that if at all possible. Other than that I think we need to split all "unconfirmed" into a {{speculation}} section. Essentially if you find an exact quote calling the main centaur clans "cannibalistic" in relation to themselves, and counting tauren, we need to cite exact quote citation, page number, who says it, etc.Baggins 00:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll get on that, but I'm afraid it wil have to wait until tomorrow atleast. Off hand, the gnoll, magnataur, yeti/wendigo, and bonechewers are all taken directly from their wowwiki pages, centaur were called cannibalistic in the bonus campain in the frozen throne, and I believe there's atleast one rpg reference(wouldn't know which book) saying they eat tauren, though I don't recall whether that was specifically called cannibalism or not. There's also atleast one quest in nagrand that confirms ogres eat orcs, though again, I don't recall whether this is specifically called cannibalism.Tweak the Whacked 00:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that Cannibalism article has good sources. even speculations. Kesmana (talk) 10:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

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