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I'm going to assume that all of this information is from the Manual of Monsters, and leave it alone. However, if it is FanFiction, it MUST be labeled as such. Glad it had its own page, though...--Ragestorm 19:46, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

Its from the RPG, with a few details taken from Warcraft I-II. I've changed it to have the standard RPG disclaimer that all other rpg pages currently use. As for the term Lower Planes, Hell, etc, those are actually used even in Warcraft 3, the novels, RPG and WoW but as synonyms of the same "Twisting Nether" used by individuals within the world. The term Dark Below actually comes from the RPG, and has its own article, which is again explicitely listed with the standard RPG disclaimer. This is discussed in a bit more detail in Retcon article, also check out Flavor Lore.

Oh, for people who might be interested in earth based mythology, Daemons are generally a much more powerful class of demons, a type of demigod, often times part god and part human, making them more of a god among demons-Baggins 20:58, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

message recieved- it's really annoying about all this RPG stuff, but hopefully Metzen will get around to cleaning it up. Where did that mythology bit come from? I think "daemon" is just ancient Greek for "spirit" (they didn't have actual demons in their mythology)- the term "Agathos Daemon" translates to "Good Spirit." --Ragestorm 06:13, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Maybe its not from actual mythology? I pulled it from encarta, maybe its a modern definition? I read more about elsewhere and as I recall it was supposed to be from medieval legends but I could be wrong, or misrembering something.Baggins 11:22, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Novel and Manga Disclaimers too?Edit

Also I think we should create a disclaimer for material from novels, and mangas as well, since those don't always show up in the games or match up with what is shown in the games. It would be another good way to avoid confusion. I created sample version in Ancient Behemoth topic for creature shown in the manga. As for what is and isn't canon, I avoid that discussion within topics to keep a neutral POV, we only have our own opinions(without explicit statements from blizzard or metzen) to go with, and what is occasinally stated in the lore, and official quotes from Metzen and blizzard from intervieews, and articles.

"We're taking the process of building a world seriously and it wasn't just churned out. It had a strong sense of continuity. We've always tried to do that with are ancillary products like the D&D line and our novels. We are kind of painstakenly anal, about making sure all the details add up, that continuity is held to be sacred. So that no matter in what medium you are experiencing warcraft it all feels like a contiguous experiance."
-Chris Metzen, World of Warcraft, Behind the Scenes DVD.

My personal opinion on canon matters is post the info up from a neutral viewpoint as is, and let people who read the topics decide for themselves. Just give them the approriate disclaimers(and links to the source) so they can make the decision on there own if they treat spin off literature to be a lesser degree than the games or not...or at least know that they aren't going to see those in the games, so they don't go about wasting their time looking for the stuff ingame. Baggins 11:22, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Agreed. However, I'm not sure that the information posed by novels needs to be disclaimed- they've proven to be more canon than the RPG books, (the only actual exception is Aegwynn in Cycle of Hatred- she teleported before she could talk to Llane, as established elsewhere), the "unique" circumstance of War of the Ancients notwithstanding. --Ragestorm 15:01, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

There are actually timeline issues in the novels as well, chrological problems, characterization differences. They sometimes refrence things directly from the original manuals, that fans currently find to be questionable(that never get brought up in the later games), not to mention standard typographical errors printed material might have. So that makes certain things in the novels suspect as well. Actually from what I've discovered personally it seems there are completely original material in the novels that later games refrence later on, and RPG lists original material that the games refrence later on. Often times there are things listed in the rpg that show up later in the game without you even knowing it was going to be in the game.
BI: How do the Gnomes fit back into Warcraft lore? They were notably absent from Warcraft III. Where have they been?
They had their problems in Gnomeregan and they isolated themselves a lot after Warcraft II.

Metzen: I think we deal with it a little bit in upcoming D&D supplements

It seems Metzen himself is using all forms of media to tell the story, but doesn't make much of a distinction between the different styles of media in his mind.
I think all we can do to keep things at a neutral POV as possible, is just post the information with warning headings(as well as related links), and let people decide for themselves, or at least until we get confirmation from officials saying otherwise(then we can post the quotes). I'm glad most of the Loremaster staff agrees on that particular way of going about things. You, Aeleas, Fandyllic and I seem to all be agreement on that issue, :)Baggins 15:21, 9 May 2006 (EDT)
Not sure, if anyone will notice this, but I created a {{manga}} banner template that looks very similar to the {{RPG}} banner template based on what I saw in the Ancient Behemoth article. I may make a {{novel}} banner template for articles taking lore primarily from the Warcraft novels, but not sure yet. --Fandyllic 6:59 PM PDT 2 Jun 2006

Kil'jaeden's AppearanceEdit

Well I kept track of Kil'Jaeden's appearances as I read Rise of the Horde. First off he appeared appeared as ancestors of the orcs, appearing as the regular "brown-skinned" orcs.

Later when Kil'Jaeden appears after Ner'zhul requests to see one of the "other beings". Kil'jaeden is described as being red skin, however it doesn't really describe his entire body in detail. Ner'zhul only notices one physical attribute of his body that means anythng to him. He comments that Kil'jaeden's legs remind him of draenei's legs. But he doesn't seem to see any other connectionb etween Draenei and other parts of the body, not enough for him to say hey look they are the same species, or were directly related at one time.

This is vague enough that Kil'jaeden may have still appeared in the so called "demon/daemon" form, but with backward's canted legs like the eredar and draenei. Backward canted legs is also somethign Ered'ruin have in common with Eredar, and there may be a connection between daemons, man'ari eredar, and ered'ruin.

Much later in chapter 16 it final describes kil'jaeden's head, it says he has a horned red head, but doesn't really describe the nature of his horns (that is if the horns are like daemon horns, or something else). I will also note that some artwork and even Warcraft III's interpretations for Kil'jaeden show a decidely lack of horns. At this point in the book even Gul'dan doesn't seem to notice a direct connection between draenei and Kil'jaeden and wonders why he wants the draenei killed. Kil'jaeden hasn't appeared with enough similarities for Gul'dan to know they are or were the same species.

It isn't until later that both finally are able to put two and two together.

Imo, the book's discriptions are vague enough that we can't assume that there has been a major retcon from what was said back in Warcraft II. Trying to read into it that he looked exactly like he did in Warcraft 3 is speculation at best (he didn't have horns in warcraft 3, just a artichoke like facial crest). There are more than one way of interpreting vague discriptions used in the novel.Baggins 14:35, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Summoned Daemon Edit

Why does not the Summoned Daemon chesspeice end the speculation? Is this not Blizz's subtle way of filling in a retcon of what they are? RotH says Dae mon is orcish for twisted souls on page 311. Humans proably heard this and accented this word when these were summoned by orcish warlocks. AAH! MORE SPECULATION! I HAVE MADE IT WORSE!--SWM2448 22:01, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

FanworkEdit

Just moving fanwork to the talk page.Baggins 16:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Kil'Jaeden-Avatar

Fan recolouring

Deamons fight alongside the Horde in Second war after all?Edit

I was playing WC2 on the human campaign (ToD) where i stumpeld upon a Orc abse with several deamons. This is the battle for Blackrock spire one, anyone any idea why they are there?Gorvar (talk) 19:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I remember that map I had to make three mini bases to beat them. But I don't remember any daemons also wasn't that where Lothar dies?Asajames3 (talk) 04:00, December 30, 2012 (UTC) And Guldan was frequently summoning demons remember? I mean come on people! the orcs were a huge weapon of the burning legion! So why would'nt Sargerus send a few daemons to help babysit his new pets?Asajames3 (talk) 04:00, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and nice recoloring for whoever did that.Asajames3 (talk) 04:01, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

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