Talk:Deathwing/Archive2

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Contents 1 Deathwing's "death" during the Invasion to Draenor 2 Hint of Deathwing's location? 3 It should be noted that these are different names for the same individual/personality, and not names denoting different personalities. 4 Blade's Edge 5 Error 6 Deathwing Killed = End of the World? 7 Not Dead 8 Anti-Hero 9 Removing Fanart 10 Deathwing Killed = End of the World? 11 Re: Whereabouts of Deathwing. 12 Scratch Wyrmest Temple please. 13 About the -progeny- part 14 Miscommunication 15 Citations 16 Deathwing, the villain in the comics?

Deathwing's "death" during the Invasion to Draenor

ther is some contradiction in his "deaths". In History of Warcraft was mentioned that events of the Day of the Dragon book take plae "meanwhile" to WC2: BtDP ad in the fifth mission of the BtDP was mentioned by orcs that "With the Dragon Queen Alexstrasza rescued and the Dragonmaw Clan captured by the Alliance, we were no longer able to command these great winged beasts." According to the lore this mission takes place in the middle of the BtDP storyline. If that is right there is no contradiction in deathwing "death" during the BtDP in the hands of the Alliance Expedition Perhaps he could really die because he was weakened by his battle with Aspects (or heavily wounded and transformed and then retreat to Azeroth or transformed to Neher Drake by the Draenor explosion or killed by it). Mardook

Just to sum things up and make it clear. You're saying, because of the quote in WC2:BtDP, his death in it takes place after DotD. I always throught DotD took place well after the portal was closed, just from the sound of things :S But that quote does prove it to be the other way around if you're right. Hopefully someone who has played WC2 can back that up, as i haven't. But cool, good point, cos everyone has always worked on the asumption i had from what i've seen. Tbh, doesn't that actually make his status deceased? He's never appeared since, and i don't recall his kids saying anything about him being alive still. :S --Zealtalkcontrweb 05:30, 20 February 2007 (EST)

This has been retconned. All sourcebooks nowadays give the following timeline: year 6-7 after the opening: Ner'zhul gets turned into the lichking by Kil'Jaeden. Year 8: Battle of Grim Batol. Well, it's likely that dragons can also make an illusion of their own to be at two places at one time...(except for Nozdormu who can do that by heart...)--Maibe 09:14, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Hint of Deathwing's location?

Just started trying out the latest patch on the PTR. Headed over to the Dragonmaw base camp on Netherwing Ledge and saw a conversation between the orc in charge and a "Blood elf" named Lady Sinestra. Sinestra talks to the orc about Nefarian's failure and how her "master" is continuing the project of his progeny. She pledges the Black flight's help for netherwing eggs, and, as she leaves the camp, she turns into a black dragon.

Granted, it's not said outright where he is, but I get the feeling he's not held beneath Grim Batol (or if he is, then they are not keeping a close enough eye on the dragon).

Hope it's ok to bring this up, found it pretty interesting when I came across the NPCs talking. Also figured it'd be best to throw up the spoiler tag, just to be safe.--Maenos 06:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Perhabs it's just the snotty-ness of the black flight. I can easily imagine them saying: alright, so the master is held captive by that dreaded red flight in azeroth, but that's only a minor setback...he'll soon be back and continue work...--Maibe 06:27, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Deathwing inspires such fear and loyalty in his consorts and children, I doubt they'd use his name so casually... or rather his title. However, we don't even know for sure that this "master" is Deathwing at all. ~ Peregrine

Actually, Sinestra states she's there to claim eggs for her master, no matter what the price, and how they are her master's eggs anyways. -- Hoboonaparkbench

And we all know supervillains have the best sense of ownership in the world... "I want it, so its mine". ~ Peregrine

It should be noted that these are different names for the same individual/personality, and not names denoting different personalities.

This appears not to be entirely true. I've looked into more history of Deathwing from various books, including the RPG and we have these quotes that seem to point out that his personality has infact changed over time;

In peaceful times, their leader was known as Neltharion, and his wisdom and power were renowned. Then came the madness that destroyed Neltharion's mind. The ultimate cause of this fall is unknown.; some scholars say a favored child died before his eyes, others claim that a powerful relic twisted his mind and soul. Whatever, the cause Neltharion ceased to exist, taking up a new name and a bitter purpose. He became Deathwing and his subjects were placed beneath the iron rule of a tyrant.^{MoM 29}

Deathwing was once known as Neltharion the Earth-Warder, a great protect of the land, but some unknown crisis in the distant past changed him and his kind forever...Upon his irrevocable shift to evil, he turned against his destiny and began to deslign in causing suffering wherever he could.^{S&L 93-94}

-Baggins 13:17, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

In his appearance in DotD (Deathwing), he has a similar demeanor and disposition to his "mask" appearance to the other Aspects in WotA (Neltharion). The implication there is that Neltherion reverted to his normal personality in the intervening years, while maintaining his "dragons only" ideology. The change in personality that the character undergoes in the interveneing years is little different from changes that any of the Kaldorei might have undergone. Hence, Deathwing is more like a favorite alias than a completely distinct personality. The personality is the same. The alignment and ideology are what has changed. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:52, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

It's also stated he's capable of putting on acts, Deathwing is what he has become, but he's capable of "acting" like who he once was, or other personalities as means to manipulate others. At one time he had a kind and noble personality, and liked other races. When he "changed" he began to have a hatred for others, and wanted to "use" them for his own gains. In anycase, there are definite statements that, his personality has changed from one of nobility and honor, to one of evil, deceit, and hatred.Baggins 15:14, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Oh, I'm not disputing that he changed, that much is obvious. But my point is that Deathwing and Neltharion are just names- Neltharion behaved in a Deathwing-ish manner before the acquisition of the new name (which I don't think has been officially addressed), and Deathwing occasionally behaves in a Neltharion-ish manner.

Regarding that line, though, you are correct that it needs modifying. Regardless of what the actual situation is, in conversation, that it how the names are used. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:54, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like Death/Nelth is a little like Gollum. 2 sides fighting, but his evil side seems to the strongest. (Keilden 07:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

Blade's Edge

I pulled WoWMapView up and got a good look at Dragon's Rest. All the impaled blacks appear to have reddish plating on themselves, and none of them appear to be larger than the others. --Super Bhaal 01:27, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

Lots of black dragons have reddish plating. What's your point? - Dark T Zeratul 01:35, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

gods, not the old -all black dragons we see nowadays hatched from the eggs Deathwing stole in DotD- They did NOT. Onyxia and Nefarian are far older than that and Alexstrasza and Korialstrasz RECOVERED those eggs.--Maibe 07:19, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

I never implied any of that. There was something on the 'whar is dethwing???' section of the page that said, "Some fans speculate that Deathwing is in fact the large, armored Black Dragon impaled on the spikes of Dragons' End, although it is extremely unlikely that a major lore figure would appear as an unidentified corpse with no mention of his death." I was just trying to put that theory to rest. --Super Bhaal 22:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Error

Until the release of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, he, Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable NPCs from Warcraft II to appear in sources of lore set after the game.

I don't know what you mean by this. "Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable NPCs." Let's rephrase this: "Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable Non-Playable Characters". I don't even know what you're trying to MEAN...Luffy 18:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Where was he in Warcraft three? The prestor model was fan created in the map editer. I myself have been confused on this. 1.)You can not play as lore charicters in TBC, so how would that chainge anything? 2.0 if this is supposed to mean playable in Warcraft three, where was Ol' Deathy in that game? Sorces of lore... OH! Books, games and all. Yeah it makes scence now and is true. Sorry.--SWM2448 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer and Deathwing were the only Hero units from warcraft two to be shown in anything, be it a book or warcraft three or WoW. TBC chainged this with Khad ann Dan and all that.--SWM2448 18:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You haven't read "The Last Guardian", have you?--Austin P 01:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

NPC means non-player character, not non-playable character. It doesn't seem like much of a difference, but believe me, it can make quite a difference indeed. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 02:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Deathwing Killed = End of the World?

There has been a discussion on Ashbringer.com's forums - thinking maybe Deathwing might have some kind of link to it, not sure where that debate came from - as to what would happen if Deathwing were killed. Evil deeds aside, Deathwing - or Neltharion, if you prefer - is the Aspect of Earth.

The debate's split; some believe that because Deathwing (as Neltharion) was granted his power by the Titans, the power would simply return to the Titans. Others - myself included - believe that if Deathwing were killed, the world of Azeroth would suffer a cataclysm rivalling the disaster which resulted in the creation of Outland. Our of curiosity, I had asked what would have happened if Deathwing were no longer on Azeroth - i.e. during his sojourn on Draenor - and some are of the opinion that it should have had the same reaction as killing him. But then again, during the time of the aforementioned sojourn (Warcraft II), Deathwing was merely a black dragon who was (apparently) aiding the Horde; the idea of the Dragon Aspects, far as I know, was not yet established.

Opinions? --Joshmaul 20:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think he lost his power over earth when he became corrupted. Though, the blacks still think of the depths as theirs, which is why they hate Ragnaros (who took over the molten core) so much.--SWM2448 20:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

He hasn't lost all of his powers, he just turned them towards destruction rather than the intended purpose of creation. Also onsidering that Deathwing's existence has created several cataclysms already, because he misuses his powers. I highly doubt his distruction would do much of anything. He also is apparently capable of dieing of old age, and will probably be replaced someday.Baggins 20:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Upon his irrevocable shift to evil, he turned against his destiny...his changes to the land forced the mortal races to battle for resources, and many claim that Deathwing is the true cause behind the wars that have for so long scoured the face of Azeroth. He revels in causing earthquakes and ripping open volcanic fissures...Deathwing can employ his great powers to raise magama from the world's core to the surface, creating volcanoes even in places where none stood before. Deathwing was once a protector of the earth and the land, but is now the enemy of all who defend life and nature."^{S&L 93, 94}

-Baggins 20:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In DotD, the others seem to think they can destroy (or at least defeat) him without harm, but Krasus says at some other point that even they aren't sure what will happen. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I tend to follow the theory that the aspects keep a seal on the old gods prison together...therefor, if one truly dies without an heir the old gods will have an easier time breaking free...c'thun and whichever corrupted the dream (if that wasn't c'thun) had it quite easy (so to speak) to escape at least particular when the aspects were weakened...--Maibe 21:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the world will be fine. As mentioned before the Aspects are clearly described as custodians and guardians, not embodiments. Just because a guy guarding a bridge was killed doesn't mean that bridge ceases to exist. -- Zexx 16:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

At least not until some demon comes among and blasts the bridge. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much yeah, but its not like they were utterly necessary. The Aspects were totally absent from the Third War, but this is most likely because their lore wasn't fully fleshed out yet. --- Zexx 04:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the death of the aspects will mean the end of the world, but not as a direct link. As in, without aspects, there are none to safeguard the land, and so the demons will come and kill everything in sight... If I had to pick one aspect to be the most absolutely essential to the fate of Azeroth, though, I would have to say Nozdormu. ~Peregrine

Not Dead

Since Blizzard has, in fact, now said that Deathwing is still alive (Lady Sinestra), should we get rid of the "He is dead" in the current location section? Luffy 11:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Nobody said this "master" is Deathwing. ~Peregrine

Anti-Hero

a pretty small point but the term "anti-hero" is being misused here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero , deathwing is a villian and evil, but as the wiki link shows, that is not the meaning of the term anti-hero js1006 15:31, 8 September 2007 (GMT)

Agreed. Remove as needed. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing Fanart

Removal of fanart to follow screenshot/artwork policy.--Baggins 05:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Deathwing Killed = End of the World?

Well.. if Deathwing would die, nothing would happen. Why do I say this? Wrath of the Lichking sas Malygos (another aspect) is set to be a raid boss. If you would kill him? wouldn't the world be pretty fucked aswell? unless you only have to defeat him and after he chickens out like Majordomo in MC. I don't know we'll have to wait I guess. CaiuNariz

Comment: It shouldn't be the end of the world cause the Titans formed the world and the Dragons are just there to protect it. KijkEr

Re: Whereabouts of Deathwing.

Another sugestion maby. He could also be one of the Trade Princes of the goblins and he's hiding out somewhere in the capital of the Goblins. Since there are 2 of the 5 factions of Goblins still not revealed and 4 of the 5 trade princess it could be very posible I'd say. Also ofcourse Deathwing can go to Outland on his own. Illidan could? why shouldn't Deathwing. Deathwing could go to the Emerald Dream as told in the War of the Ancient Trilogy. Could also be that he could just reach into it and not actually enter it entirely I forgot that part, if so I stand corrected. Also maby if he is on the goblin island thingy and he somehow couldn't reach outland on his own (this maby reaching for plot big time) Goblin's are pretty techno-freaks, they can teleport people from one place to another is known. Since if Deathwing would take the form of a tradeprince he could've set all the lil green guys to work to make another transeporter/portal to Outland. Coud all be true since no big time info about the lil-greenguy's capital is released yet. --CaiuNariz

Scratch Wyrmest Temple please.

To make it short: Wyrmest temple was merely an adventure hook, so nothing that should be considred a theory for the MMORPG. IMHO --Maibe 22:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I would personally agree with this - it does seem to be taking a bit too far. And I recall thinking it was utterly absurd when reading the RPG :/ Kirkburn  talk  contr 23:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think its a bit absurd as well, however the introduction by Brann states that the little adventures he mentions throughout the book are "rumors" he's picked up along the way. He's not saying they are true, but just stories and myths he's heard about.

Finally if the event really did happen, I bet it was all a ruse, and that Deathwing really wasn't dieing, and had some other reason for going there.Like any of the adventure hooks you don't get the end of the story only the start of one, so the final outcome is up in the air.Baggins (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

About the -progeny- part

You know, I wonder if the word progeny is really a hint to Deathwing. Blizzard played with words often before, so can we really be sure it means offspring here and not, perhabs, product, indicating there's someone (or something) else pulling the strings?--Maibe 02:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I will now, in typical Peregrine fashion, cry "OLD GODS!!!" ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 17:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The one problem with your suggestion is that Deathwing is now such a megalomaniac that he doesn't even trust the voices in his head. Maibe could potentially be right, of course- but there's no way of telling, so no entry into the article (discuss lore implication on subpage or usertalk to conitnue non-editorial discussion)--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Miscommunication

Just curious, what possible miscommunication could have led to Deathwing smoking a hookah? I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just curious. --Xavius 09:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Maby..the hookah was supposed to be just an artifact in some tresure he was guarding.. Thrall sees Deathwing and visa versa followed by Deathwing saying: Lookah lookah this is my hookah --CaiuNariz 18:45, 11 Januari 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather say they wrote seomthign along the lines of -thrall spots a smoking dragon---Maibe 18:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds more probable. XAVIUS, the Satyr Lord (Praise · Creations) 19:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Why have the citations been changed from their usual format to links at the bottom of the page?--Austin P (talk) 18:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

It's simply a more proper formal and encyclopedic way to provide sources. Especialy in longer articles.Warthok Talk Contribs 21:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems less practical to me. With the usual method of citation, a person can instantly see the book the information came from and what page it appeared on, as opposed to going to the bottom of the page and skimming through the sentences.--Austin P (talk) 15:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Has a few downsides however. It breaks up the article, while with refrences only a small number is seen (which can be clicked on to instantly go to the bottom of the page). The citations may be instantly recongnizable only to those highly familar with sources of warcraft lore, most casual fans thumbing through lore pages don't instinctly know what MoM, ToD, DS, are and have to navigate to a different page to find out. Lastly Refs/Citations have two purposes: to present the source and to give credit. References do both. Citations only do one of these things, they do not include authors, publishers, etc...all things needed to give proper credit (i'm sure theres some copyright benefits as well). While some might see it as less practical (thats really a matter of opinion), references are more proper.Warthok Talk Contribs 16:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright. I can accept that.--Austin P (talk) 02:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Deathwing, the villain in the comics?

I was just doing the Missing Diplomat quest again, and in the end it appears that black dragons are working together with the Defias and nagas... And the villain in the comics is most likely; a Defias, a naga or a black dragon. I doubt its a Defias, because in that case VanCleef would still be alive, a new unnamed leader wouldn't be original... And we can be pretty sure its not a NAGA, no need to explain why. But as we all (?) know dragons can take human form, and the villain is sort of confirmed to be the leader of the Take-The-Diplomat stuff.. And since its all going on at the same time as TBC, it can't be Nefarian, since he is confirmed dead lorewise, and Onyxia is in Stormwind all the time, so it can't be her, and in WotLK there will be much dragon-lore stuff I guess... Might this be Deathwing? Ofel(talk) 16:18, 3 July 2008 (Norwegian Time :P)

Sign your posts... and VanCleef may still be alive, ingame questlines don't always mesh with chronological events (or rather what level your character was involved with the event).Baggins (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ehm... I didn't really understand that sentence , but [1] is proof enough for me that he's dead, and The Missing Diplomat is sort of a follow-up from Defias Questline Ofel(talk) 18:03, 3 July 2008 (Norwegian Time)

Think of it this way, the head of Onyxia doesn't prove Onyxia is dead. Infact she is very much alive in the time frame of the comics (it takes place after TBC begins). In the case of some of the published lore in sources such as the RPG, VanCleef was very much alive at least up to the start of The Burning Crusade (a few months before it at the most), he's still alive in Dark Factions for example. Much of the Missing Diplomat line has already occured in those sources, including knowledge that Varian Wrynn was trapped on Alcaz Island for a short time. Sometimes quest lines that occur in the games do not happen exactly as they do in the game in other lore. Not even quest lines in the game necessarily match up, one quest has you get the head of Renault Mograine for example, yet another quest has him killed by another NPC. Sometimes the Horde versions of quests tell a very different story than Alliance versions of quests.Baggins (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As for Onyxia (though this might rather belong to her talk page then here): I've heard the theory that she linked her own lifeforce to that of VanCleef and her brother so she can come back as long as one of the two is alive. Same goes for the other two. That theory makes sense to me as quasi-/semi-immortality might be something VanCleef would want if he has to enter an alliance with the black flight and Onyxia is too clever only to tell him he should do what she wants or else...--Maibe (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I think there was a fan theory, that VanCleef has body doubles impersonate him to keep him safe. So that anyone that tries to reach him would most likely run into one of his doubles, and he'd be able to get out alive. As I remember specifically one of the fan theories tied to this idea is this is one of the reasons why he wears bandanas all the time, and also pushes that style onto members of the Defias, to improve his disguise.Baggins (talk) 22:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The bandana-thing, though, is more of a game-detail morphed into canon with Dark Factions, so (dull) people will recognize that element. The new version of the Defias as it came with that book bothers me a bit, as it IMHO turns the Defias into a gang of people who apparently would have declared war on stormwind even if they would have been payed and makes the king look too goody...The details of the world of warcraft are turned plain black and white one by one and that shouldn't be.--Maibe (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)