This argument was begun by User: Blarg the Gnome on Talk: Draenei. Opinions were so strong that the section caused the talk page to exceed the size limit. Feel free to review the arguments and add your opinions. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper
(Earlier arguments stored at Talk: Draenei/Lore/Archive 1). If you're just joining the arguments, you may wish to review the previous comments.
- Welcome to our little corner of insanity, Tysar! Great theory with Khadgar and the Expedition. But yet again, nothing in lore says that the Draenei are out to persecute the orcs as Blarg claims. Just a bit of racial tension- the same that the other races feel towards each other. --Ragestorm 19:04, 3 June 2006 (EDT)
- Thank god we have Blarg who can enlighten us with his uber knowledge about the lore, that's even more detailed then the official one :p - as long as i doubt that Draenei are saint or something, you still havn't presented any reasonable evidence that Kil'Jaeden found Draenor becose of Draenei, and your theory still remains unconfirmed (or unrefuted). Anyway, for the Draenei vs Orcs thing: Frostwolf Orcs didn't just spawn in alterac from nowhere, they are the offspring of the same Orcs that murdered 80% of Draenei race. Draenei do hate them (In addition, the Draenei hold no affinity for certain Horde races. They outright hate the Orcs...), but that doesn't mean they joined alliance for that reason. Yes, they are going to fight them, but that's the resault of being in the Alliance, Taurens fight agains Night Elves while they have no reasons to do so (and even more, they are both druidic so they should be friends, right?). Orcs ARE responsible for destruction of Draenor and they ARE reposible for killing vast majority of Draenei as they willingly gave themselves to the Legion's corruption. You can't say it should be forgiven becose they were just stuipid and didn't know what they did. Ofcourse, Orcs that are playable in WoW havn't even seen a single Draenei before, but Draenei have no reason to trust them as they have no warranty that they won't drink demonic blood again or something, thier hate is justified. Funny, how relative morality can be...
- "And its still wrong for the draenei to mistreat the orcs,after all the orcs welcomed them to their planet when many races would have kicked them,the Draenei should at least let the orcs be instead they believe in the destruction of the orcs including Durotan's clan. Its wrong for them to war against the orcs forgetting about all the good things the orcs did." What good things Orcs did? They welcomed Draenei to thier planet? They didn't own the planet, they just lived in one region of it. If you think about what you wrote, the Draenei should say "Hey guys, we shouldn't hate Orcs becose they killed 80% of our race when they corrupted themselves, they could have done that before!" Yup, makes perfect sense for me... not. And again, they didn't join Allaince to wipe Orcs out of the Azeorth, becose (as it was already said before) it's not what Alliance is for. --Nea 04:23, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
- I fully agree with what Nea said above, and thanks for the warm welcome :D. Now, I'm not saying the Draenei will go crazy as soon as they see the orcs, although the Draenei entry in the Manual of Monsters suggests that they in fact do, although that was about the Lost Ones. Also, remember tha the Draenei just entered the world and met their hated enemies, by whom they were probably haunted on Draenor even after its' explosion (as in the remaining Fel Orcs) so they can't be possibly as "calm" as the humans are now. The humans were totally pwned by orcs, but then they saw the orcs lose their bloodlust in front of their eyes and they even fought side by side at mount Hyjal, where humans saw how honorable the orcs are. Perhaps, Oh Blargrannon the Dreamweaver, you can enlighten me with your great knowledge and tell me what is incorrect in my last post, and explain your points so that I know what am I supposed to respond to; I already addressed some of your points, and I await your words to shine upon my simple mind like the silver rays of Elune's grace... btw. who the hell said the Draenei got kicked out from other worlds by the native races? They left because the BL pursued them, and Draenor was a perfect refuge for other reasons than being unoccupied completely. In fact, nobody even said the orcs were waiting for the Draenei as they saw their Nether-ship come down, they probably made contact only when the Draenei explored the world and already had a foothold, meeting the orcs in their homeland: "In time the draenei met and befriended the shamanistic orc clans that already lived in the tranquil southern grasslands of Nagrand. Aside from engaging in some limited trade, the draenei and orcs regarded one another with respect but kept mostly to themselves.". Also, the orcs didn't even name the planet themselves, the Draenei did when they found it and the orcs used that name since that time.--Tysar 07:36, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
- Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I think the Draenor name thing can be discounted however - much like in Star Trek and other such fictional worlds, other species may not use the same name for something, but to the viewer they are presented as the same name to prevent confusion. For example, the races on Azeroth would not all use that name, even though they say it in-game. Draenor is likewise a generic name. -- Kirkburn 10:24, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
_________________________________________________________ "Anyway, for the Draenei vs Orcs thing: Frostwolf Orcs didn't just spawn in alterac from nowhere, they are the offspring of the same Orcs that murdered 80% of Draenei race." _________________________________________________________ You've on again proved your a moron Tysar. The Frost Wolves never layed a finger on the DRAENEI OR DRUNK MANNOROTH'S BLOOD. And MOST ORCS DIDN"T EVEN KNOW WHAT A DEMON WAS AND DID NOT KNOW THE consequnces of DRINKING MANNOROTH"S BLOOD. frankly your a moron who needs to read the lore. Your stupidity apalls me. When will I recive an intelligent response? "Blarg the gnome"
- If I get insane after playing some game so I won't see the difference between real world and game world, and then kill somebody, will that mean I'm not guilty becose I didn't know what I was doing? Insanity can lower the punishment, but it won't erase the blame. You are failing to see that we all know, that Frostwolves didn't hurt Draenei directly, we know the lore, we just don't share your opinion, your argumentation is simply flawed. And on a side note: That's how far you had to move your finger not to sound like an idiot. --Nea 17:17, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
- Both of you, CUT IT OUT! Blarg, we all agree that the Frostwolves are not responsible for the actions of the previous Horde- although if your definition of "an intelligent response" is one that conforms to your point of view, I don't think you'll get it. Nea, I appreciate that you were provoked, but but this sort of behavior is grey at best. Unless we can all adopt a civil tone (or as civil as we can in this sort of argument), I'll mark this for deletion and seek official mediation- no discussions are furthered by calling your opponents morons or idiots --Ragestorm 17:45, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
My view an intelligent is one that adresses my point and has accurate information. Nea's and Tysar's post skip most of my points,have little thought put into them and are just an excuse to flame someone. "Blarg the gnome"
- As I recall, way back from the beginning of this, your point of view was that the Draenei were hypocritical. Your core argument is that the Draenei blame the orcs of WoW, several of whom are Frostwolf, for the destruction of their race, and wish to persecute the orcs for this. The fact that they're hypocrites stems from the fact that they are responsible for the Eredar in the same way the Frostwolves are responsible for atrocities of the Old Horde. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
- As for Nea and Tysar, yes, they do skip over some of your points. But fair is fair- you've skipped over almost as many points as they have combined. I've been here for longer than most of the other people who've been discussing this, I've yet to find a need to flame somebody- I've been arguing this because your POV interests me.
- If you're trying to paint yourself as the victim here, it won't work- you've called another user a "moron" for disagreeing with you, and your near-vandalism of the Draenei page is clarly recorded in the history of that page. --Ragestorm 19:22, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
:::As I recall, way back from the beginning of this, your point of view was that the Draenei were hypocritical. Your core argument is that the Draenei blame the orcs of WoW, several of whom are Frostwolf, for the destruction of their race, and wish to persecute the orcs for this. The fact that they're hypocrites stems from the fact that they are responsible for the Eredar in the same way the Frostwolves are responsible for atrocities of the Old Horde. Correct me if I'm wrong there. Yes thats pretty much what I am saying. I made this discussion because I got tired of black and white views like this "Lol Draenei are a perfect angelic 1337 race with a spaceship woot,noob orcs are teh badguys". I got tired of people assuming Draenei were am infalliable angelic race for several reason. 1.NO PLAYABLE RACE IS PERFECT 2.Draenei have a made fair amount of mistakes and wrong doings 3.The horde races especially Orcs are not an evil force and have done a fair shair of good deeds "Blarg the gnome:
- Thank you for giving a valid point. But where did you get the idea that we all thought the Draenei were angelic and infallible? and please don't start on the Dimensional Ship/Tempest Keep- let's stick to the Draenei.
- Of course no playable race is perfect! what would be the point in playing a perfect race?
- I find it very hard to believe that users on this site would have any conception that the Horde was the evil force in WoW (although, personally, those green eyes of the Sin'dorei creep me out). --Ragestorm 19:58, 4 June 2006 (EDT)
You'd be surprised how many people think the Draenei are an angelic race. Personally I believe their just as dark as the forsaken. "Blarg the gnome"
- Well, I might be surprised I might not be. Here's another question: how many of those people, who think the Draenei are so angelic and pure that they suddenly start hating the orcs, are on this site?--Ragestorm 05:11, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
- Long post, you has been warned!
- You have quoted me, not Tysar. Maybe you don't understand what I wrote since english is my secondary (no irony included). Let me try to put it in a different way. Orcs come from Draenor, right? Frostwolf Orcs (or other tribes that live in the Azeroth) didn't do anything to Draenei and that's correct, but thier fathers, grandfathers or grandgrandfathers did take part in almost wiping out Draenei. Now, if you look at it as an observer, then ofcourse, those Orcs are clean. However, if you look at it from Draenei point of view, it's not so simple. They hate Orcs becose they didn't forget what happened on Draenor, they don't say that Thrall is responsible for killing any Draenei, they hate them becose they know what Orc race is capable to do. Are they wrong? Well, Frostwolves didn't drunk Mannoroth's blood, but you can't forget that Warsong orcs (Grom) did, and at this point he knew exacly what the demon is, he once again gave his people willingly to the Legions control for power. They are not corrupted now and they are part of the Horde (Warsong Gulch anyone?). Taking that into consideration, Draenei have right to prejudice Orcs on Azeroth, Orcs are not directly evil, but there is something extremly dangerous in thier nature. I feel that the real argument is not really about the lore, it's about morality. You said that Draenei should let the Orcs be, but who said they are going to exterminate the whole Orc race in the first place? There is a border between hate and wanting to kill, I do hate half of the goverment in my country, but it doesn't mean I'm going to buy a sniping rifle and assasinate them all. They didn't join the Horde becose of thier hate to Orcs and becose Blood Elves (yes, I know that Blood Elves in outland are different ones then those on Azeroth) sabotaged thier ship. They joined Alliance instead becose Humans and Dwarves worship the Holy Light and Naaru told Draenei before about other races that might help them defeat the Legion, they finally got an occasion to stop running and start fighting. The Alliance and the Horde are not in the state of a direct war, it's more like a cold war. They don't really like each other and fight for control over some territories, but when the danger comes, they can unite and fight arm to arm (AQ gate anyone?). It's unavoidable for Draenei and Orcs to fight each other as they are in opossite factions now, not becose they hate each other, but becose they are obligated to do so for thier allies. It won't be global war leading to extermination of one of them, but I'm sure as hell that thier hate will give them a lot of morale on the battlefields. I never said that Draenei are super uber holy race or something, worshiping Holy Light doesn't make one saint (Scarlet Crusade being the perfect example), but you can't call them hypocrites. They are choosing what is right from thier point of view or at very least - the lesser evil. I hope that my points are clear now. --Nea 05:27, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
- I stand by my description of the Draenei as an 'incredibly pure' race, by the way, as that's how several members of Blizzard described them in the interviews. Blarg can you please direct us to any bit of evidence that the Draenei are persecuting the orcs? You've so far failed to do so, nor shown us why you think they're similar to the forsaken. This isn't to say we think anything you'll bring up is wrong, but you can't have a fair argument when one side doesn't bring up sources or information other than their own viewpoints to support it. You keep telling us we're incapable of making fair arguments, which, frankly, is getting very annoying and immature.
- Going back to the forsaken similarity, I would respectfully disagree. The forsaken worship a twisted version of the Holy Light, whereas the Draenei worship a version that comes pretty much from the source (unless you are now suggesting that the Naaru are also twisted?). -- Kirkburn 05:56, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
- I'm finding myself agreeing with Kirkburn, though I admit the Draenei are slightly imperfect.
- Major flaw in Blarg's argument and Nea's response: The Frostwolves did not spring to life on Azeroth, they were originally a clan of Draenor whose leader, Durotan, was something of a latter-day Velen: he realized what was heppening at the last minute and was unable to change anything.--Ragestorm 06:13, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
No race in Warcraft history is perfect as far as I know - even the Titans had one of their own turn to the dark side. I find that's part of what makes the lore interesting. I don't think Draenei ought to be perfect. No race should. But to get back to the point, hatred is a very powerful - and irrational - force that can seriously affect people's behaviour. For the fifth time, racial grudges exist. Oh, and notice that the orcs became corrupted by the demons in the first place. Therefore, it may be possible for it to happen again - unlikely under Thrall's rule, but still possible. Burx, for instance, in the Warcraft books, was also decieved by the demons. Also, it reflects an inherent desire for power within at least some of the orcs. -- Durbathuluk
- My bad, I guess that's becose too little sleep time, since I usually check my facts before i post something :p. Luckily for me, it doesn't really change anything for the Draenei point of view, since they prolly don't recognise Orc clans, and Frostwolf clan is not the only one out there on the Azeroth. I believe that Draenei hate is based more on the fear of what Orcs can do, as they painfully felt the demonstartion of power when this whole we want to conquer mechanism started in the orc heads. --Nea 07:04, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
- Again, I agree with you Nea. The Frostwolves are pure of the corruption, everyone knows that, but Frostwolves are not the only clan in the Horde, the Bleeding Hollow, Blackrock remains (those that followed Doomhammer), the Warsong, the Shattered Hand, and the Burning Blade (the first one, blademasters' clan) to name a few that willingly gave themselves up to demons and slaughteed the Draenei and humans. Draenai are a similar case to the Frostwolf clan, but all of the Draenei are the "pure" Eredar, who hate their demonic brethren as much as Thrall and Frostwolves hate Fel Orcs. Also, I believe that the orcs knew of demons and Mannoroth and what they are capable of when they were drinking his blood, and that knowledge was probably the reason why Durotan saw succumbing to the bloodlust as insane. The rest of the orcs thought otherwise. Great wise shamans became warlocks and honorable warriors and hunters became bloodthirsty berserkers, and all of them were happy. The Draenei are surely afraid that this could repeat. As for their similarity to Forsaken, I see none. Forsaken are evil, scheming, and only use the Horde for protection, meaning to betray it and release a new plague over their lands. Thrall knows this is coming but the Earthen Ring convinced him that they may find a cure for the undead, and that's the only reason Thrall agreed to Sylvanas' proposal. Now, I don't see the Draenei doing that to the Alliance. They are brothers in belief, their scorn for the Horde, and perhaps the Draenei took Khadgar and the boys back to Azeroth in their dimensional ship (when the Draenei Paladin mural pictures were first shown, I thought that the Eredar/Draenei could have been thouhgt of the Holy Light by Turalyon and other Paladins). Anyway, this is just my opinion. I hope I will not be called a moron for no reason again --Tysar 07:47, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
- So.......lets review the facts.
- 1.) The Draenei are not from Draenor
- 2.) They may or may not have told the ogers and orks about the leigon (although it seems clear that at least most of the orcs and ogres ignored the warning if they did tell them)
- 3.) The orcs gave themselves willingly to the Leigon.
- 4.) The orcs slaughtered the Draenei at the Leigons command.
- 5.) Most of the remaining Draenei are now either broken or Lost Ones.
- 6.) The Frostwolf clan did not submit to the corruption. They are not corrupt
- 7.) The Draenei have fled to Azeroth, and crashed on Azuremyst Isle(s)
- 8.) They don't Like Orcs.
That, as far as I know is all we know. Do we know the Draenei will not change their minds about the orcs when the see the new hord. We will have to see. These Draenei are fresh from Draenor. They know nothing about Azeroth or it's races exept the few races that have set ambasators to the Isles. There is no reason to say the Draenei are Hypocrites. --Gadgetfingers 14:05, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
Um, please spell "orcs" and "ogres" properly. But anyway yes, you have a point in saying that for all we know, the Draenei may not hate the orcs so much anyway when BC comes out.--Durbathuluk
Sorry about the spelling. thanks. BTW, who wrote that? no one signed it --Gadgetfingers 14:05, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
Again, this is more a moral talk then lore talk. Draenei do hate orcs, but it doesn't mean they want to kill them:
- Hate or hatred is an emotion of intense revulsion, distaste, enmity, or antipathy for a person, thing, or phenomenon; a desire to avoid, restrict, remove, or destroy its object. (...)
Taken from wikipedia. Hate isn't just a flat value, it have degrees. Draenei might understand that those orcs that remain on Azeroth aren't bloodlusted Fel Orcs they knew, but it still doesn't make them friends. And btw, didn't Draenei just want to run anywhere and crash landed on Azeroth by accident? --Nea 04:22, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
Still, The Draenei may not yet know that the Frostwolves were never corrupted. For all they know the hord on Azeroth is the same bloodthirsty horde that massacured them of Draenor. Because of this they have all the right in the world to hate the orks while they are still ignorant of the changes in the Hordes structure. Perhapse after meeting the new hord, and seeing the change that has come over the race, they will be more willing to exept the orcs as friends, although as Nea said, grudges go deed, and such a blow will be hard for the Draenei to forget. --Gadgetfingers 19:45, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
- The chief problem with the opposing arguments is that they're insistent that the Draenei joined that Alliance so they could specifically get back at the orcs (well, at least some of the comments indicate that- the core argument is actually a bit more cohesive), when that's barely a footnote to the Light connection- if the Draenei are indeed a more altruistic race, then they will soon realize that the Horde of today is not the Horde of yesterday. Now, note the spelling of "orc" with a "c", and the "e" at the end of "horde"- you managed to spell Elf species names correctly, I don't see why these are giveing you any problem ;-P--Ragestorm 05:50, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
I know that is spelled orc wrong (i have corrected it) but is'nt horde spelled with an "e"? its spelled like that in the game as far as i know. --Gadgetfingers 14:30, 10 June 2006 (EDT)
Sorry, forgot to sign the comment. And it's definitely "orcs" and "horde". --Durbathuluk
Hurray for Spelling!! --Gadgetfingers 19:45, 20 June 2006 (EDT)
it's obvious that the draenei hate the orcs I think...many of the playable draenei were child (i think) when the orcs slaughtered their families n friends...so even if the new orcs r honorable the image of the evil orcs is stamped on their minds --orkk 21:32, 19 july 2006 (EDT)
Your comment will be ignored until you return to the use of Standard Written English.--Ragestorm 15:39, 19 July 2006 (EDT)
I don't know if the Draenei were all children when the orcs were attacking, from what I gather, tho I am not sure, the Draenei are not immortal but have extremely long lives. Velen was a leader of the draenei (though of course that wasn't their name back then) when Archimonde and Kil'jaeden betrayed their people to the BL. They travelled for thousands of years fleeing from the BL, so does this mean that only Velen has a really long life or does this apply to all Draenei? .Theocritus
- I think it applies to all draenei. There's another draenei that we know lived on Argus (Jessera of Mac'Aree), so it seems that it's possible for any member of the race to live a long, long life.. -- Maenos 20:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I know that this arguement ended a while ago but I'd like to add my opinion: first of all, the Draenei never persecuted the orcs. Second of all, a conversation where they tried to warn the orcs: "yeah, there are evil things that look like us that may or may not come and try to destroy us all, but don't worry, because they probably won't, but still just look out for people who look like us." That would work out great. Bill (talk - contr - web) 04:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)