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Horde or not? Edit

With the introduction of the broken and draenei that can be shammys, is it a Horde organization?--SWM2448 19:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes it still is a Horde organization. They are only affilated with the Alliance for gameplay. The Earthen ring doesn't bear any real grudges against the Alliance. Zarnks 19:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I still think it is neutral like the Cenarian circle now.--SWM2448 19:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope its still Horde. Almost all of the its members are Horde. Its just not fighting the Alliance. The reason draenei are in it it is because they bear no grudges agains them. Zarnks 19:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you actually have any proof of your claims? Note how on the list, most members are neutral, and some are in the Alliance. Hardly makes them a Horde faction, y'know. By proof, I mean citations. Kirkburn talk contr 20:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Think of it it like the Violet Eye. It has always been stated as a Horde Organizations. They are the reason Forsaken are in the Horde. Zarnks 20:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I said proof. Not just saying the same thing again :) Oh, and the Violet Eye is not an Alliance faction. Kirkburn talk contr 20:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Look in the manual. Read the story section. It is a Horde organization,always has been. The violet eye is friendly to both factions ingame even though they are part of Dalran an Alliance nation that Horde is always fighting in Silverpine. Zarnks 20:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

And yet, notice how we don't list it as an Alliance faction. How odd! Why should the Earthen Ring be treated any different? It'sn organisation with strong Horde ties, yes, but it is not part of the Horde. Meanwhile, cite, or at least quote. Kirkburn talk contr 20:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The Earthen ring has more power in the Horde then even Thrall himself. See the forsaken issue. Like I said read the manual. The Violet eye is Alliance it like the Earthen ring just is friendly to Horde. Zarnks 20:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

If I am asking you to cite something, I do not expect you to go adding yet more controversial information to the articles. It would also please me to see that you check your reverts in future, so that you don't remove other valid changes - [1] Kirkburn talk contr 20:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I already said my cite is the manual and official site. The Earthen ringis effectively leads of the Horde they can even outrule Thrall. Zarnks 20:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This is yet another warning. It's like you want to piss me off. Give me links or quotes. Kirkburn talk contr 20:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I already gave you my cite THE MANUAL. Zarnks 20:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Which you have in front of you? And I don't? Makes it quite hard to verify what it says if you don't actually quote it. Kirkburn talk contr 20:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It says though Thrall was suspicous of the Forsaken,the Earthen ring a council of shamans in the Horde overruled Thrall and let the Forsaken in. Margatha grimtotem is a member.

Not to be rude but even Baggins agrees with me. To quote him "There is a Horde council that can make decisions despite his disagreement. Cairne and Thrall didn't want the Forsaken to join the Horde, and don't trust them, but he was forced to consent because of the council and Magatha Grimtotem". [2]

I'm an avid Horde player I know this. Zarnks 20:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, page number? Original manual? I'm looking now ... It sounds like there is an Earthen Ring council within the Horde, but that faction itself is not Horde aligned. I'm not a strong Horde player, and therefore require tangible proof. Kirkburn talk contr 20:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The faction is Horde aligned they command more power then even Thrall. Think of them as Horde's answer to Congress. Zarnks 20:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Do I have to keep reminding you what consensus means, and how a wiki works? Just because you keep adding something, doesn't suddenly mean it gets to stay without agreement. Kirkburn talk contr 20:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The rpg books say the Earthen ring is a HORDE ORGANIZATION. Why must you argue ? You don't even play Horde as much I do.

To quote Horde supporter "True, but the final word is Thrall's, his council, The Earthen Ring, managed to convince him that the Forsaken were acceptable allies "

Not to be rude but the numbers are against you. Zarnks 20:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Books you don't quote or cite. Just because I have not played horde to end-game doesn't mean I suddenly cannot ask for proof of your claims, nor must I take out-of-context remarks as such. And for the last time stop adding the information back until we are in agreement here. Going back to the issue, I will give you that they are Horde-aligned, but they aren't a Horde-only faction, and certainly not a "horde faction in world of warcraft". if they were, half the members wouldn't be neutral, and you wouldn't find Alliance members. Kirkburn talk contr 20:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Six reverts. SIX. You are incredibly lucky I am not suspending you again. Kirkburn talk contr 20:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break one Edit

They are part of the Horde they can overrule even Thrall. The members are neutral for gameplay and they want assistance from all the faction even the Alliance which they hold no grudges against. Their first goal is mending outland and if Alliance want to help them,then so be it. Zarnks 20:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

How about we agree not to touch the article itself until Ragestorm comes. Zarnks 20:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Medivh also gave Thrall and Jaina counsel - does that make him both Horde and Alliance? As ever, I would like some links or at least quotes to back you up. How do the Broken members play a part in this as well? Would your view not make those Broken also Horde? Kirkburn talk contr 20:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Mediv said so himself he is no longer a human. The Earthen ring was previously composed of only Horde races only very recently have draenei be let in. The Earthen ring basically controls the Horde,even Thrall answers to it.

The broken are probabaly only in it for the restoration of outland or are loosely part of the Horde. Zarnks 20:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Btw, do you have the manual page yet so I can look it up? What does Medivh not being human have to do with anything? If it is only composed of Horde races, then the draenei can't be a part of it. But they are, like you said. So it's not just Horde races. Speculating about why they are a part of it is irrelevant if you can't cite something to back it up. Kirkburn talk contr 20:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I said only recently have draenei been let in. I gave you tons of cites and users that agree with me just leave at that. Your not even a Hardcore Horde player. Zarnks 20:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You certainly have not given me "tons of cites". You have only given me what Baggins and Hordesupporter said, and what some ethereal manual said, though you cannot seem to say where. And whether or not I am a "Hardcore Horde player" means little - though it does mean I experience the Earthen Ring from the Alliance side - which I'm pretty sure you haven't. Anyway, just because something changed only recently doesn't mean it didn't change at all. Kirkburn talk contr 20:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see what Kirkburn being a "Hardcore Horde player" has to do with his desire that you cite something. Are you familiar with the definition of the word? It doesn't include vague references to the manual, nor have you given evidence that "tons of users" agree with you (you referenced Baggins once). Furthermore, even if "tons of users" agreed with you, that does not make you right, nor does it give you the right to consistently revert the changes of an administrator. The name of the game on a wiki, or in any community, is consensus, which you have blatantly ignored in the majority of your edits, all in favor of extolling the virtues of the Horde wherever possible. --Flyspeck 21:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the manual on me now but it says in the part describing that the Earthen Ring A HORDE COUNCIL overuled thrall to put the Forsaken in the Horde. Ragestorm has also called it a Horde council.

Seems Flyspeck never leveled up a Horde player and is an Alliance player that explains his lack of knowledge on this subject. Zarnks 21:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks don't win arguments, they just lose you friends. If you don't have the manual, how can you tell me what it says? I do have it, and I can't find any mention. It's quite possible that a council of Earthen Ring are directly involved with the Horde, but that does not make every member a part of the Horde. Kirkburn talk contr 21:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Once again, whether I, or anyone, has played a Horde character is irrelevant. For your information, I began my WoW "career" as a Horde player in open beta. Furthermore, all quest information is freely available on sites such as Thottbot or Allakhazam, giving me exactly the same "knowledge" as you. I think a more accurate version of your statement would be "Seems Flyspeck isn't obsessed with a fictional organization, that explains his lack of bias on this subject". --Flyspeck 21:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[3] [4] [5] Heres a bunch quets reflecting the Earthen rings importance to the Horde.

I'm not saying every member is part of the Horde but the organization itself is part of the Horde.

Let compare the number of quests they give to Horde[6] To the number they give to Alliance [7] Zarnks 21:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said most of the draenei members just joined to Heal outland. Zarnks 21:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Theres basically two parts of the Earthen ring,the main part that advises and effectively the Horde,no draenei are part of this. Then theres the secondary part focused on healing outland which draenei are part of.

Magatha is also a member of the Earthen ring. Zarnks 21:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Comparing the number of quests including the words "Earthen Ring" is hardly a good comparison. One is a passing mention, two are linked, which makes it six to three. As for the two parts thing, what do you base this on? Kirkburn talk contr 21:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Zarnks I don't like being used out of context... as far as I know I never called the "council" the "Earthen Ring" when I mentioned the "council" and I don't recall the exact page number of the information, but I don't think it ever said "council" in question was specifically the "earthen ring". Other than that I don't know what you are talking about, but please don't put words in my mouth... I'd like to point out I don't agree or disagree with people, I only quote and cite sources. If I can't find citation I don't add it to an article, and if I find something not properly cited, I will add a "Fact" check to it.Baggins 21:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

To repeat myself read this don't skip it. Theres basically two parts of the Earthen ring,the main part that advises and effectively the Horde,no draenei are part of this. Then theres the secondary part focused on healing outland which draenei are part of. Zarnks 21:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We heard you. So clearly, in fact, that I just asked you about it. Kirkburn talk contr 21:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The Earthen ring in outland is focused on healing outland they have stated that is theri specific goal. The one in Azeroth is focused on advising the Horde. Its a subfaction. Zarnks 21:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it not therefore be inaccurate to describe the whole of the Earthen Ring as a Horde faction? Kirkburn talk contr 21:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The main part is a Horde faction. They lead the Horde and are clearly horde. The best solution would be to spit the earthen rings into two articles. Zarnks 21:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

But there's no indication that there's two Earthen Rings anywhere in game as far as I'm aware. A subsection in the current article, maybe. If there's enough consensus for it. I'm not entirely sure it's worth a whole article. -- User:Kaydeethree/Sig 21:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Threedee, there is never actully said to be two groups in-game.--SWM2448 21:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We know this

  • Earthen ring is Horde council
  • Earthen ring overuled Thrall and let the forsaken in The horde
  • The council is most definetly Horde
  • Earthen ring is in outland and some members are friendly to the Alliance

Zarnks 21:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I still feel they are a neutral group of devout shamans who Thrall trusts in their judgement. The were soley Horde but anyone who serves the elements (draenei/broken) con join.--SWM2448 21:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Or put less biased-ly, we know there that the Earthen Ring has members in a Horde council, that these members convinced Thrall to let the Forsaken join, and that not all members are Hordie-aligned. Kirkburn talk contr 21:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, well put.--SWM2448 21:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
And you, though I'm not sure we have information on how they started. Kirkburn talk contr 21:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break two Edit

To cite wow.com, from the FAQ page on races:

Why are the Undead allied with the Horde?
Led by the banshee-queen Sylvanas, the Forsaken are an Undead faction that split violently with the Scourge during the Third War. Knowing that no Human agency would ever give them shelter or aid against the Scourge, now their hated enemy, they turned to the savage Horde, based across the sea in the distant land of Kalimdor, for assistance. To convince the Horde to accept the Forsaken into its alliance, the Undead ambassadors claimed that they merely sought a cure for their degenerative condition, which they said only the powers of shamanism and the life-giving energies of the earth could provide. In exchange for this healing aid, the Forsaken vowed to support the Horde in all of its ventures throughout Lordaeron and Azeroth.
Having done battle with the Undead on many occasions, Orc warchief Thrall and Tauren chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof of the Horde were immediately suspicious of the Forsaken's motives. However, due to growing political tensions, the warriors acquiesced to a council of sages known as The Earthen Ring. The council argued that it was the Horde's duty to aid the Forsaken, who wrestled with inner demons just as the Orcs had for generations.
Though Thrall and Cairne secretly suspect the worst, it remains to be seen what Sylvanas and her fanatical Forsaken have planned....

So the Earthen Ring appears to start as a council of Horde sages. Once the portal has opened and they move to the Outland, they incorporate members of the Broken Ones into their ranks. They did not overrule Thrall in the decision to allow the Foresaken into the Horde (acquiesed != overruled). Earthen Ring members (at least in the Outland) are friendly to the Alliance since protecting the land is more important than petty mortal squabbles. - ClydeJr - talk - contrib 22:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Great find! Now, how should we fit that in the article? Kirkburn talk contr 22:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
thanks, very interesting. Now if we can just find the citations and quotes that discussed Magatha's involvement (and how exactly she was involved) with getting Thrall and Cairne to agree to allowing the Forsaken in, and then the circle will be complete... cough... bad pun... cough.Baggins 22:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I knew it started out and still is as a Horde organziation at its core.

"Magatha's involvement (and how exactly she was involved) with getting Thrall and Cairne to agree to allowing the Forsaken in, and then the circle will be complete" Magatha was either part of the Earthen ring and convinved Thrall or convinced the Earthen ring to let the Forsaken in. Either way she's plotting something Zarnks 22:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Look, we aren't looking for speculation, I'm just saying I want the page number and quotes where Magatha is mentioned, and connection it gave her, in whatever source it was (its been a long time since I read it). Not sure if it was the manual or something else, rpg maybe. But it would clearly be interesting info to add to Magatha's article, but only if the citations exist first.Baggins 22:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

So whos going to add the info to the page? Zarnks 23:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

They aren't a Horde affilated in many respects. They just plain are Horde affilated. Zarnks 01:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Not until you cite a specific source they aren't, I for one am not convinced. Quote - "the warriors acquiesced to a council of sages known as The Earthen Ring. The council argued that it was the Horde's duty to aid the Forsaken..." - The fact that they argued what Horde's duties are suggests it. Not really confirmation. Raze 02:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It started as a group of Horde sages and advises The whole Horde effectively being their equivelent to Congress. What more proof do you need? Zarnks 02:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If you're gonna reply to a comment, please use indentation to show it, or the Talk pages become a mess. The Earthen Ring is only a part of the Horde if they answer to the Warchief, and they take orders from him. They may consider themselves a separate entity that answer only to themselves. There's nothing to prove they are the equivalent of congress either. In this example, they gave urging to the Horde and the Horde acquiesced, that is a valid interpretation. Raze 02:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
To bring up something earlier from Lands of Mystery about page 45-65 or so, don't have the exact numbers on hand, Magatha Grimtotem has ties to the the tauren "Council of Elders", not the Earthen Ring. Although she doesn't appear to be one of the Council of Elder's members, she stays near them so that she can try to influence their decisions as best she can. There is some implication in there about her and the Grimtotem ties to Forsaken and how they are working with them to make some kind of alchemical potion and the Grimtotem tribe as a whole using said potions for genocidal measures throughout Kalimdor, having already wiped out some races in areas. I'll add the exact details later when I have the time.Baggins 03:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
There is the Official horde mini-icon [52] Delivery to Magatha quest. Jediga first sends the players to gather 4 tablets from the naga ruins. You then deliver them to people including Magatha.
From the quest description: "The first tablet goes to a tauren female... one called Magatha. She is among the elders in Thunder Bluff, and is one of the proponents of the alliance between the tauren and the Forsaken. She, more than anyone among the elders, feels the tauren and their ways can help the Forsaken find a path back to being human. Bring her the Tablet of Beth'Amara. The tablet may be the link she needs in finding a way to help the Forsaken... or so she claims."
After you give her the tablet, one thing she says is "Beth'Amara was one of the Highborne's most influential alchemists. The wizard alone was said to have mastered transmuting metals among other things." So she's interested in the recipes of a Highbourne alchemist. - ClydeJr - talk - contrib 05:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks clyde, interesting so she is one of the Elders, the way it was worded in LoM was somewhat vague on the issue.Baggins 05:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The Earthen ring is composed almost enitrely of Orcs,tauren and trolls its mainly Horde Aligned. Zarnks 05:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't remember much about the storylines for the Earthen Ring seen in Light's Hope, and couple of Alliance cities in Outland but they might be ambassadors from the Horde trying to bring peace between both factions.Baggins 05:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

CitationsEdit

Zarnks the Template:Fact command is a request for the actual citaiton. You have not given one, you have not given page numbers, a specific quest, a direct quote from an npc, and reference to the npc, etc, that says that information specifically. Once someone has that information they can use the template: cite or template:reference commands. Also there is no reason to say "mainly-horde aligned" in second part of the article its already implied by the first sentence in the article. Its just repeating info and is redundant.Baggins 17:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Stop reverting my or kirkburn's actions or we will be forced to give you a few days to cool off. This is your last warning for this topic.Baggins

If they didn't command alot respect in the inner dealings then forsaken wouldn't have been let into the Horde.

Alright fine I'll leave the page as it is. Zarnks 17:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

"regaining shaman past"? Edit

I believe there's problem with the statement, "As draenei are also now regaining their shamanistic past, there are even broken and Draenei shamans within the Earthen Ring." As far as I know, without reading books, rpg's and the like, the draenei did not embrace shamanism until Nobundo became the first shaman and with Velen's support, start teaching both broken and draenei. In Nobundo's story "Unbroken", many draenei believed the shaman was a purely orcish practice, perhaps suggesting it was even part of the evil the orcs perpetuated against the draenei. I propose a small change: "As draenei are also now embracing shamanism, there are even broken and Draenei shamans within the Earthen Ring." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mondoblasto (talk · contr).

Faction?Edit

Was the Earthen Ring a Faction in the game previously? It says on the page that "As of patch 2.3.3, it is not possible to gain reputation with this organization." When was it possible?  Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 01:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That quote is really confusing. Was it possible to gain reputation before the said patch or not? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Your post is exactly the same date as my post. Only one year later. That is crazy. In a cool way. Rolandius Paladin (talk - contr) 00:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed, very cool indeed. But what's strange is that a whole year has passed and yet no one has answered. I think I'll remove it if no one answers in some time. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 01:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Draenei shamansEdit

So the Quest:Relic of the Earthen Ring (Alliance) finally introduce the draenei shamans as members of the Earthen Ring, I mean, the Earthen Ring isn't a Horde faction anymore? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maice (talk · contr).

The Earthen Ring hasn't been a Horde faction since the Burning Crusade, which introduced a sizable number of neutral Earthen Ring questgivers. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:14, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Wildhammer dwarvesEdit

With the addition of Earthen Ring Pathfinders for the 2010 Midsummer world event, and the shaman class coming to dwarf players in Cataclysm, it's probable that the Wildhammers have joined the Earthen Ring. Deepred (talk) 13:03, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Pro or Contra against Neptulon? Edit

In the part "Cataclysm" stands the Earthern Ring wants to aid Neptulon and his servants. But during the Midsummer festival they stop Ahune, a son of Neptulon. Are they against or pro Neptulon now? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Numisel (talk · contr).

Wanting to stop Ahune doesn't necessarily make them anti-Neptulon. Neptulon had nothing to do with Ahune's summoning. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:29, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
The Earthen Ring are more about keeping things in balance and protecting Azeroth in general, and they take sides based on that.Kraas (talk) 15:17, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

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