Talk:Grommash Hellscream

Grom's Son

He has a son in Outland, one of the Mag'har, in Nagrand: http://wow.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=81171&site=19&gallery=2192&action=next AzraelOpacus 01:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Already added in the infobox. --Ragestorm 09:25, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Picture Dispute

Im saying that picture from the cover of RoC is Grom Hellscream and not Thrall, compare it to other pictures of Grom...

The things that mostly make me say its Grom are: 1. He has that Hollywood Hogan-type beard and Thrall doesnt 2. Thrall has blue eyes, this orc (which instead of braided hair also displays the loose black hair typical to Grom) also has reddish eyes; which in Orcs is a sign of demonic corruption. This has to be Grom Hellscream, and I think its a better pic of him the the typical one also used at his page in wikipedia. --Whimsickal 02:58, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Oh... and comparing it with the pic that is right under; you can see the similarities. They even have that scar on the eye. --Whimsickal 03:00, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Argument noted and commended, though I still think's not as clear as you say. For future reference, new discussions are started at the end of the page. --Ragestorm 07:15, 20 December 2006 (EST)

"Oh... and comparing it with the pic that is right under; you can see the similarities. They even have that scar on the eye"

That's not a scar its his eyebrow in Metzen picture, you can see a similar one over his left eye as well. So that is not a "similarity", as there is no scar to speak of, just weird eyebrows.

You also said Thrall is never shown with a "holywood hogan" beard, actually in some concept art in Art of Warcraft he does, and in some shots in the cut-scenes.

As for jaw shape its somewhat closer to Thrall's more rounder face than Hellscream's sharper jawline as seen in the cutscenes of Warcraft III.

Additionally the armor of the cover orc is neither like the one Thrall wears, or the one that Grom wears. Although the direction of the studs are closer to the studs in some pictures of Thrall's armor(including in-game cutscenes), top to down, rather than left to right(as they are in Grom's armor).Baggins 10:24, 8 January 2007 (EST)

So are we reversing, or leaving?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:34, 8 January 2007 (EST)

I say we put a picture from another source in it yes. Is that gromm on the cover of the rise of the horde? Seems to definitely have a black tattooed chin, and the armor design matches.Baggins

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be- it's definetly not Durotan, Gul'dan, or Ner'zhul, it probably isn't Orgrim, which means it's either Blackhand or Grom. I'm inclined towards the latter. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:15, 10 January 2007 (EST)

I think I am inclined to agree that the picture Whimsickal put up is indeed of Grom, but simply another artistic interpretation of him. But I say make Chris Metzen's portrait of him "the portrait", or a still of him from a cinematic, since Metzen is the one who conceived of the character. The tattoos Grom has in Metzen's portrayl is also the most consistent with his novel descriptions.--Zexx 12:44, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Grom's ghost?

With Patch 2.01 a quest was added on each side to summon and interact with Uther's ghost. Think we'll be able to do the same with Grom at any point? It would be only fair.--Illidan Rocks 02:54, 27 December 2006 (EST)

While this is a topic worth pursuing, I don't think WoWWiki would be the best place to discuss something like that.--Zexx 03:35, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Axl Rose

Double You Tee Eff? Can someone justify this?--Zexx 01:39, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Grom's Age

Thanks for the clear up Baggins. I misplaced my manual and it is indeed shown as 45, but it appears Chris Metzen's timeline has been retconned once more with the relatively short amount of time between the orc's corruption to the current time.--Zexx 05:28, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Grom must have been really fit orc to live so long. Zarnks 05:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually fel magic can do that to you. Its one of its "curses".Baggins 05:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Axe

Hey, does anyone know where I can put the name of his axe? I got the name from the d20 book Shadows & Light and while it's not super-important, I think it'd still be pretty neat to let everyone know what it's called in case they're wondering. So uh...if anyone knows where I could put it without it sticking out like a sore thumb, I'd appreciate it. --Super Bhaal 2:44, 28 January 2007

Grom's a Blademaster?

Is there any lore to actually confirm this? (ie. perhaps his description in the RPG books, if anyone has it available.) I thought the Blademasters were specifically former members of the old Burning Blade. Sure he was basically a blademaster "unit-wise" in WCIII, but it was not his unit title and if ability was a judge of what a character is, then Malfurion would actually be a Son of Cenarius. If there is other lore to back it up, forgive my rambling. Korgo 03:05, 8 February 2007 (EST)

According to Shadows & Light, he was a 12th level Fighter ( later renamed warrior ) amd a 10th level Gladiator ( prestige class ) around the time he and Thrall landed on Kalimdor. They said the Horde called Gladiators Blademasters, so there we have it. ...also of interest, they credit him as knowing Common, Dwarven, and Orcish. Don't see anything about the Burning Blade, though. Just stuff about him landing on Kalimdor. As far as what you said about Malfurion goes, Keepers of the Grove have their own fifteen-level class that's kind of like a druid and kind of not; they're free to multiclass as a druid. Also of interest, Malfurion and Cenarius are both chaotic good. Super Bhaal 03:42, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Ah, thank you. I wouldn't have thought he was blademaster, but thats interesting. I should really go out and get those books, even if I don't play D&D these days. Korgo

More importantantly, while Grom's model was different in Warcraft III, he used the same abilities as the Blademaster units. I don't remember what he had attached to his "class" subtitle on the character screen in game though, might have been blademaster, but I don't remember.Baggins 05:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Gorehowl

I'm wondering, how did Prince Malchezaar get hold of this axe, Gorehowl, apparently Grom's? He hasn't been present in the lore until TBC so I can't see when he stole the axe, or who might have stolen it and presented it to the Prince.

Stab in the dark, but he might've grabbed it sometime during/after the Battle of Mount Hyjal. You know, wandered to Demon Fall, grabbed the axe...I mean, there were other Eredar aside from Archimonde there, right? Don't like playing that map much, wouldn't remember. And Gorehowl is Grom's. Shadows & Light said it was under his list of possessions. Super Bhaal 04:12, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Though Archimonde was the only Eredar on the map, that doesn't mean anything. It's possible that Malchezzar was there, or that someone else, such as Azgalor, brought it back to the Nether and it just wound up being given to Malchezzar. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:07, 14 February 2007 (EST)

I would attribute it to the otherworldly-ness of Karazhan... we also see a lot of items that seem to come out of the past of Azeroth, so we can assume that Karazhan is out of sync with time and space. I guess one could imagine that, floating around out in the Nether, a parallel Grom or at least his parallel axe ended up in the tower or the possession of one of its denizens. --Flyspeck 16:18, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Pf, either way you'd think Thrall'd have the decency to take his friend's possessions with him after he died and not let some dork in a metal bikini walk off with it...maybe when Mannoroth exploded the axe got magic'd to Karazhan? Super Bhaal 17:11, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Do game drops really require lore? I mean what's a random clefthoof doing with a Blinkstrike on him?--Zexx 06:35, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Legendary drops require at least a lorethought. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:41, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Indeed that is true because there are questlines involved, but Gorehowl is an epic-grade item.--Zexx 15:16, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Not certain what your point is. Regardless, this is the sort of thing that requires little, if any, actual explanation, and is, as you suggest, not of extreme import. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:03, 17 February 2007 (EST)

You listed legendary-grade items as examples of item drops founded within lore. Epic items are not given the same treatment.--Zexx 02:44, 18 February 2007 (EST)

I don't see why not, given the fact that items such as Gorehowl and Atiesh were owned by major lore characters. Besides, lorethoughts are more things for users to keep in mind, not any real attempt to explain them (ie, not going in the article). --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:37, 18 February 2007 (EST)

Ati'esh is, once again, a legendary item with a specific questline. You're drawing the wrong comparisons. Epics with links to lore characters like Gorehowl, Ashkandi, etc are just drops. I suppose there could be some sort of argument made because of the people that drop them, but ultimately it's pretty trivial, and just to add a "oh cool, this belonged to _____" factor rather than to explain how it ended up in the possession of a mob in the first place.--Zexx 15:48, 18 February 2007 (EST)

<shrug> fair enough. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:45, 18 February 2007 (EST)

One theory: considering Burning Legion's activity around the Grom's Monument, perhaps it was stolen from the Monument? (Orgrim's Armor was made a monument, and Mannoroth's broken weapon is suspended there, maybe the Axe was there also?) --Potbasher 12:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Grom Hellscream Vision Video?

Does anybody have the video of the vision of Grom Hellscream fihgting Mannoroth that you create for Garrosh? I'd like to see it (since as Alliance I can't see it otherwise).

~ Peregrine

[1] Zarnks 21:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Why Grom Hellscream is a hero

Grom Hellscream is a tragic hero. He had had a bad sense judgement, was often blinded by rage but he always meant well. In the end He atoned for his sins by making the ultimate sacrafice for his people. Zarnks 03:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this is mentioned in the article... Ellethwen 04:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Image

I don't see how the image I uploaded couldn't be Grom. Compare it to the cinematic image: hair, demonic red eyes, shoulderpad ( down to the stud at the bottom near his ribs, leather strap with a metal ring near his solar plexus, and placement on right shoulder ), tattooed jaw, Warsong symbol, and hairtie are all dead on, unless there's a Grom lookalike somewhere in the Horde. --Super Bhaal 03:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Noted. I'll have a second look at them when I have the chance. Please don't change it back before I do. :) --User:Sky2042/Sig 03:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Eh, that's just what I thought when I picked up Rise of the Horde at the bookstore: "Hahaha, oh wow that looks like Grom. What a metalhead.". --Super Bhaal 03:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The artwork title is "Rise of the Horde", though I'm pretty sure its Grom as well.Baggins 03:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, just grabbed it fron Sons of the Storm because I thought, "hmm. That green tint to the cinematic image is nauseating, and I'm sure people don't want to be reminded of that depressing part of the story. Why not show him when he was an overgrown twelve year-old with a magic temper?" --Super Bhaal 03:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have to agree with that. Could you move the other picture to another place in the article; I particularly like it. :) --User:Sky2042/Sig 05:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I like both images. Though I prefer using "photorealistic" cutscene images over artwork whenever possible, if the option exists.Baggins 05:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Too many classes?

Fighter, Grunt, and Warrior are the same thing, why have three of the same class listed? Same goes for Elune. "Healer" and "Priest" listed at the same place is redundant. --Super Bhaal 04:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Grunt is a NPC unit/class in Horde Player's Guide, and in in Warcraft I-III. Grom was based on the Grunt unit, in Warcraft II.

In the two Warcraft RPG games, Warcraft RPG, and World of Warcraft RPG has been given Fighter and Warrior classes, each class unique and seperate to both versions of the game (with the fighter class being removed, and not making it into the second game, and warrior class added instead), however both had seperate written "lore".

The list reflects the references in the lore, rather than to be references to the game mechanics. It exists to show the publishing record, and how each source interpreted the characters. Again according to policy we don't pick and choose sources, and because this is not an RPG specific website, so rules on how to play the game are to be left out.

As a side note in the Warcraft RPG, Fighter and Warrior were seperate classes from each other. In World of Warcraft RPG, had a new type of the Warrior class and replaced the Fighter class, and the Soldier class was made and replaced the old Warrior class. The skills lists for the various classes were not the same however. The version in World of Warcraft RPG is closer to the MMO style Warriors.Baggins 05:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, for anyone curious I went back and did some research, for references in original Warcraft RPG, to that game's version of the "Warrior class", and I found these references (this is probably not all of them, but only the ones I could find);

• ...adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, warrior exist in the world of Warcraft.Template:Cite
• Draenei, 1st-Level WarriorTemplate:Cite
• Furbolg, 5th-level warriorTemplate:Cite
• Dark Iron Dwarf, 1st-Level WarriorTemplate:Cite
• Forthisal D’Neve (female high elf Rog6/War3/Wiz2)Template:Cite

There are quite a few sentences written in a lore format where warriors and fighters are mentioned at the same time as well, for example in Shadows & Light, as suggested enemies for characters in the book to defeat. In the earlier rpg warriors tended to be treated as less than fighters as far as fighting skill, and this influenced the wording of the lore somewhat. For example, something like;

...turning the lowliest warrior into a skilled fighter...Template:Cite

-Baggins 07:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Then can we put the source for the class next to the respective class or just put whatever class the hero is most recognized for down? I think the sentence from S&L is more a matter of context than anything related to game mechanics. It's like calling an umbrella a "parasol" or "brolly": different name, same meaning. I'll agree with stock NPCs being given NPC classes and everything ( makes writing encounters easier ), but the HPG entry for the Grunt was nothing more than White Wolf's ( thankfully modernized ) interpretation of an RTS class and not a seperate class in itself. The only thing close to an actual grunt is the "Orc Warrior" racial iconic class. --Super Bhaal 10:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

There is such a thing as "too much information" in the infoboxes, the infobox is actually supposed to be limited in scope of explanation of material listed in it (giving links, but not much more).

An (RPG) comment is enough for all classes listed from the RPG in general. If people want to learn more about a specific class they can then click on the link to find out more. Beyond that if there is to be a big explanation about something found in the infobox it actually belongs in a section of the article (for example the expanded language notes on race pages under the culture sections). Yes, the new grunt is more of a new kind of NPC rather than, a straightforward class in itself, but class is the general term we use for castes/positions/ranks/unit/jobs (different terms used by different sources for what are essentially "jobs"), etc here on the wiki, for categorization purposes.Baggins 14:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

bhaal, I think there might be more to the "lowliest warrior into a skilled fighter" then you think there is, there are some references in the WoW RPG to similar terms such as "lowliest soldier into a skilled warrior" in one of the books as I remember, and the explanation for the soldier class treats them as a kind of wimpy warrior compared to actual warriors. The books narrators, including Brann would also pretty much stick to using the terms most common to which ever game the book was set in, in the lore explanations for whatever topic covered. So the use of fighter was far more common than use of warrior in Lands of Conflict for example, where as all the World of Warcraft RPG books use the term warrior and soldier far more commonly used.

A very good example of this phenomena is use of describing history of Brymidaine Zecker, in Magic & Mayhem, he is described as a wizard (one of the two common arcane caster classes Warcraft RPG), where as in More Magic & Mayhem he is described as a mage (the common arcane caster class in WoW RPG).Baggins 14:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Grom's Legacy: One Possible Interpretation

New comments at the bottom of the page. This is the appropriate place for you to put this, if you're trying to get it back in the article (which, fyi, I don't think is likely to happen). If you're just looking for feedback, you'll want to put this on your own talk page. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not actually trying to get it put back in the article as such. I noticed however that people used the talk pages to express opinions about a few elements of the Burning Crusade expansion, (the Blood Elves etc) among other things, and that seemed to be accepted...they weren't removed, at least. It led me to believe that to some extent at least, the talk pages are sometimes used for annotations/elaborations of material on the parent page, but which for various reasons were not considered appropriate for the parent page as such. I hope this is not inappropriate.

Petrus4 22:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Your own talk page might be the best place, or possibly at Talk:Grom_Hellscream/Analysis. We typically like to avoid use of the talk pages for lengthy lore discussions if we can help it. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Grom_Hellscream/Analysis, per request.

Petrus4 16:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Redeemer of the orcs"

Technically true, but citation, please? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Relatives?

I dont think thrall is a relative, i think he called him little brother because they were good friends?--Gurluas 14:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, he was like a big brother to him, expecially when he first joined up with the orcs and he was looking out for him. Rannulf 06:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)