Talk:Lich King

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Changes

I've taken some of the source text that comprised this article, from the Warcraft III manual, and put it in Undead History. I've replaced those sections with condenced descriptions, which form the initial two (brief) sections of this article. The events preceding the creation of the Lich King as an entity are in Ner'zhul.--Aeleas 23:48, 1 Nov 2005 (EST)

The Lich Kings weakening.

I've noticed that there's some inconsistency in the wiki about how the Lich King began losing his power in Frozen Throne. Some articles say that the fracture happened when he thrust Frostmourne from his prison, and other articles say that it happened during Illidan's failed spell. Has it ever been stated anywhere just what it was that caused the fracture? --Austin P 18:19, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

According to the RPG materials and IIRC, WC3 itself, the Lich King's power began to seep out of the Frozen Throne when he forced Frostmourne from it, which is the cause of his weakening. Frostmourne is one of three artifacts that were originally incased within the Frozen Throne, each crafted by demons to both empower Ner'zhul as a lich and to keep him imprisoned. Frostmourne holds the powers of the Lich King, his spirit is bound to the Helm of Domination (which will probably be renamed if used in the future), which also helps him control the undead and others, and also to the Plate of the Damned, which makes him nearly invulnerable and also helps keep him locked in the Frozen Throne. The Lich King forcibly pushed a large chunk of ice containing the Frostmourne from the Throne, causing it to fracture in the process. His power began to pour from the fracture, like blood from a wound. Suzaku 16:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but what RPG book are those from? Those're rather odd additions to the lore, since it was said Ner'Zhul made Frostmourne, and I don't see why they'd just randomly include a sword in his ice block. --Austin P 00:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Monsters, though it's a bit dated these days, I'm sure some of the stuff will be subject to at least minor retcons. When did it say Ner'zhul made Frostmourne? I don't recall...

In the first Scourge mission, Tichondrius tells Arthas that the Lich King was the one who made Frostmourne. --Austin P 11:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose Illidan's attempt to shatter Northrend helped quicken the Lich King's loss of power a bit... --

V - Talk / Spam

Well that's what I'm asking, was his Frostmourne, or was it Illidan? --Austin P 16:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Probably both. The weakening started when Ner'zhul ejected Frostmourne but the weakening was probably not noticable until Illidan made the power drain worse by shaking the Frozen Throne up. --Invin Dranoel 08:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think I should shed some light on this matter; the Lich King says himself in FT that he started losing power when he thrust the runeblade frostmourne from the throne. And despite Illidan having not entirely suceeded in his destruction of the Lich King during the ritual performed through the use of the Eye of Sargeras it did however help to exassibate the loss of power. It opened the wound in a manner of speaking.Drahauk 00:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, The Lich King doesn't say that. He just mentions that Frostmourne was meant to lead Arthas to him, which it did.--Austin P 12:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I am certain I remember SOMEone mentioning in TFT that the Lich King thrusting the blade out of the Frozen Throne caused him to begin losing power... could have been Anub'Arak, the Dreadlords, Kel'Thuzad, or the big lich daddy himself. I can't remember exactly who, though. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 15:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It is the Lich King himself who says that. He categorically, irrefutably says that once he thrust Frostmourne from the throne, he started losing power. He does not say that Illidan's attempt to destroy him exassibated the issue, but it is clear that the player is meant to take that for granted. Drahauk 00:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What mission? I'm not going to believe it until I get an exact point in the game where he says it.--Austin P 19:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

W3X - Undead Campaign, "Interlude - Boiling Point" between "Chapter Seven, Part Three - Ascent To The Upper Kingdom" and "Chapter Eight - A Sinphony Of Frost And Flames". Does it suffice? I really do hope, Saint Thomas --N'Nanz 20:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

After checking again, he does say it, though somewhat indirectly.--Austin P 23:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

No, he categorically, irrefutably says that once he thrust Frostmourne from the throne, he started losing power trhough a fracture in his prison. --N'Nanz 00:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

No he doesn't. He doesn't phrase it like that. He states both things seperately. He explains that there's a fracture in his prison causing power to leak out, Arthas asks how, and The Lich King says that the he thrust the runeblade Frostmourne out of the ice to find Arthas and lead him to him "And so it has". To me, the way he says it makes it seem like he's talking about two seperate things, which is why I didn't catch it.--Austin P 01:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you know the 5 W of a journalist? They allow you to explain a fact in every detail:

What? The Lich King is weakening
Where? In his prison of ice
When? Some times after the end of the third war but it's not so important
Why? Because there is a fracture in the ice and through it his powers leak out
How? The fracture originated when he thrust the runeblade Frostmourne out of the ice to find Arthas and lead him to him

In an interview of a journalist as in a normal dialogue if somebody asks "But how?" the following explanation refers to the previous sentence. There is nothing to understand... --N'Nanz 08:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Upon retrospect, it is something I really should've caught myself. I usually have a pretty good memory when it comes to these things. I apologize.--Austin P 13:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Lich King triumphant Mini-Merge

Since the text was exactly the same (considering Arthas and Ner'zhul become one entity at this point), I've repeated the graphology, layout and images of the Artha's page version of the "Lich King Triumphant" on this page too. If the previous version is much preferred, feel free to change it back. Personally I like how the articles for the Lich King and Arthas start out different but end exactly the same, since it mirrors their destiny. Maybe I'm just weird. (Ulicus 11:36, 17 Feb 2006 (EST))

What exactly happened to Kel'Thuzad?

"As the ranks of the undead swept across Lordaeron, Terenas' only son, Prince Arthas, took up the fight against the Scourge. Arthas succeeded in killing Kel'Thuzad, but even so, the undead ranks swelled with every soldier that fell defending the land. Frustrated and stymied by the seemingly unstoppable enemy, Arthas took increasingly extreme steps to conquer them. Finally Arthas' comrades warned him that he was losing his hold on his humanity.

Arthas' fear and resolve proved to be his ultimate undoing. He tracked the plague's source to Northrend, intending to end its threat forever. Instead, Prince Arthas eventually fell prey to the Lich King's tremendous power. Believing that it would save his people, Arthas took up the cursed runeblade, Frostmourne. Though the sword did grant him unfathomable power, it also stole his soul and transformed him into the greatest of the Lich King's death knights. With his soul cast aside and his sanity shattered, Arthas led the Scourge against his own kingdom. Ultimately, Arthas murdered his own father, King Terenas, and crushed Lordaeron under the Lich King's iron heel.

With Arthas as his champion, Ner'zhul spread the Plague throughout Lordaeron and into Quel'Thalas, where he had the elves devestated, and regained Kel'Thuzad as an ally."

The 2 parts in bold seem to me to be contradictive. Was Kel'Thuzad killed or not? Or gained as an ally afterwards somehow, as in was he raised as undead? EmeraldElement 03:57, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Am I correct in thinking you haven't played WarCraft III? Allow me to clarify: Kel'thuzad the human Necromancer was slain by Arthas the Paladin in the village of Andorhal. Some months later, Arthas, now a Death Knight, laid waste to Quel'Thalas on orders from Tichondrius, with the expressed purpose of returning Kel'thuzad to the ranks of the Scourge. Kel'Thuzad's decomposing remains were dumped into the Sunwell, and then Ner'zhul transformed him into a Lich. --Ragestorm 08:11, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Ragestorm is correct. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 15:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Lich king in Naxx

Wow, im surprised no one has mentioned the fact that, in naxx, you can see Kel'Thuzad talking to the spirit of the Lich king --Tampler

??? --Ragestorm 16:16, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

True. You can see it in the screenshot from Death & Taxes when they defeated Sapphiron. You can see the Lich King talking (more like scolding in my opinion) Kel'thuzad. Here's the link to the screenshot in case you want to put in the quote section of kel'thuzad's page. --Pulyx

It is mentioned that the Lich King has a very brief appearance in Naxxramas. --Ragestorm 16:34, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

That would make really good screenshot. Now that nihilum downed Kel'thuzad, we might just see it. But i have my doubts if it'll be a full fledged model or just some wierd skin in a human model. Anyway, i hope we'll see it too. --Pulyx

That link is broken.--SWM24 48 21:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, still is broken... Any chances to get that SS back from somewhere? --

[1] , the Necroshadowmancer 00:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I would think they would make a new model for the Lich King - it would be stupid not to. --

V - Talk / Spam

"godhood"

I think we're getting into ungrounded speculation lore-wise here. Any thoughts? --Ragestorm 16:27, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

If you read some of blizzard's text they refer to him as the Dark Lord or the Dark Lord of the Dead. If that's not enough know that in world of warcraft 3 book they use the words godlike Lich King. There's your proof --Noman953

"Godhood" is really pushing it, in my opinion. 'God' and 'Demi-god' are both terms that have had specific meanings attached to them in the WarCraft universe that are actually very important in the classification process of characters and such. The fact that Elune is the only true God we know of (or knew of before the BC was announced) has always been an important distinguishing difference from omnipotent-seeming beings such as even the Titans. The Lich King may be the most powerful creature to have ever truly stepped foot on the world of Azeroth, but 'god', again, seems as you said entirely unfounded. --Pure.Wasted 23:05, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

Voldemort and the Sith are also Dark Lords, but none of them are gods. --Ragestorm 17:08, 5 October 2006 (EDT)

I'm not sure that Blizzard has a very specific definition of Gods or Demi-gods. Taken from the Blizz encylopedia on Gods: "There are no hard and fast rules to define what it means to be a god in Warcraft, save that all gods are immortal. Gods can be fundamentally incorporeal, like Elune, or they may have physical bodies."[2] However, later in the article, they note that "the benevolent titans [are] not gods themselves," indicating that even the Titans aren't considered gods. The Old Gods, however, are considered gods. In Warcraft, it seems you need to meet two loose criteria to be a god: 1) To be a demi-god, you have to be immortal, i.e. you cannot age, and it must take a shitton of effort to kill you (so we don't brand all pre-Hyjal night elves as demi-gods). 2) To upgrade to a full god, you have to be the object of worship.[3] Not just veneration or respect, worship. This says nothing about the character's power. They could be immortal but would lose a fight to an ant, as long as they're immortal and the object of worship, they get to be called a god in Warcraft.~

So, I'd argue that the Lich King could in fact be considered a god. // Montagg (talk · contr) 18:53, 15 November 2006 (EST)

That same article points out that some of the Demigods are worshipped, though it's rarer, and it doesn't look like it makes the distiction between veneration and worship. By whatever definition, Azshara is almost certainly worshipped, and she is a demigoddess, not a goddess. To call the Lich King a demigod as a matter of classification is perhaps correct, given your evidence. This issue related above is that the rantings of a cult trying to scour the living from Lordaeron cannot be considered evidence for using the word "godhood" in every paragraph. --Ragestorm 19:49, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Agreed. I think we should use Blizzard's termonology and treat him more as a lich than a god, since he's more like an extremely powerful lich with a mobile phylactery than anything else. If you destroy his armor, you destroy him, as demonstrated in Warcraft III by the fight over the Frozen Throne. So, though powerful, he's also extremely fragile. The discussion of what worship means becomes a nitpicky arguement, which we've already got. // Montagg (talk · contr) 20:25, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Revised

Lots of small edits here and there... I removed the "god" references (even where they were ambiguous, I altered the wording so there can be no confusion). Also went through the entire thing and added small details/clarified some events. --Pure.Wasted 22:26, 5 October 2006 (EDT)

Godhood Reintroduced

Just to add flame to the fire, as far as the godhood discussion goes. The Lich King is the source of all the undead then shouldn't that make him the god of undead. This shouldn't be dismissed just because some of his children like the forsaken have turned against him. Remember Elune is the source of the night elves, however, she gains far more favor with women than with men. I remember in Warcraft3 Furion told Tyrande that maybe "this is part of your goddess' plan". This quote implies that while Tyrande believes in Elune Furion doesn't show her the same awe that his love does. This situation is no different from the one with the undead.

Elune hasn't shown to have that much power aside from giving women invisibility and the priestesses the starfall attack. The Lich King as the Warcraft book says not only gave the liches necromantic powers but gave them control over the icy elements of northrend itself which is why they all these icy powers. So now we know he has power over the elements as well. That sounds very godly to me.

You guys don't want to give the Lich King the god status because he isn't a god whose origins lie with the Pantheon like Ysera, Alexstraza and Elune. The dragon aspects are known as gods as well but they are vulnreable to the powers of mortals. What I'm trying to say is that god or goddess is a special title bestowed upon certain deities in warcraft, the Lich King whose power has gone beyond what his creator intended should be given the same status because his children make up an important part of Azeroth just as the other deities children do. --Noman953

Elune's origins are unknown, so it cannot be suggested that she originates with the Pantheon. Her power can't be measured . We don;t want to group the Lich King with the gods because he isn't classified as one by Blizzard. There's also no evidence to suggest that he is any stronger than Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, or any of the Titans. Come to that, Elune and the Old Gods are the only beings in Azeroth who still maintain that status officially- the Titans are gods by technicality.

In other words, a god or goddess may be what the people make of it (and the mindless hordes of the Scourge didn't choose to worship the Lich King), but in Warcraft, as in most fantasy not set on Earth, gods are a separate cetegory of beings.

My concern is also for the NPOV of the article. It is opinion (or at least interpretation) that the Lich King is a god or has the powers of one. Putting it in the article is not professional. --Ragestorm 23:34, 8 October 2006 (EDT)

The texts say that Elune and other gods rose up after the Pantheon left. Either she was a member of the Pantheon who stayed behind or a being created as life began flourishing through the Well of Eternity. I would say that her power can indeed be measured through the priestesses who gain abilities from her just as the Lich King is judged by the Scourge. Not to mention the necromancers who as written in manuel gain energies directly from the frozen throne similar to how the starfall ability comes directly from Elune. And by the way the scourge may have not worshipped the Lich King but the Cult of the Dammed did, in fact the Lich King sent Kel'Thuzad into Lordoran for that very purpose. I'm not saying that the Lich King is stronger than anybody I'm just stating that he acts like a god in Azeroth. Blizzard doesn't officially call him a god but they use words like godlike Lich King in their texts. Don't worry I'm not going to put all this in the article. This is just a simple discussion between fans. But I want to know why why we can't call him godlike Lich King the way Blizzard does in their texts. --Noman953

"godlike" or something similar is fine, provided it's NOT repeated every single time his powers are mentioned. And worshipping something as a god doesn't make that thing a god. --Ragestorm 20:42, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

With the new goodhood section, I'd sat that it's permissible to purge some of the other godly references. --Ragestorm 09:52, 25 October 2006 (EDT)

The manual itself says that the Lich King is the most powerful Azeroth has ever known, so stronger than the Dragon Aspects, Elemental Lords, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden if the manual is correct. That plus what was said before by Noman it sounds pretty godlike to me. Considering although that gods in Azeroth have always been more mortal than normal gods and never almighty omnipotent creatures. --User:anremeblack 22:57, 28 October 2006

The manual also says that Jaina tries her best to rule over the remains of the Alliance, but I notice that Bolvar is still the Highlord. --Ragestorm 21:17, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

Note that while the Lich King may be an extremely powerful necromancer himself, he hasn't brought necromancy to the world and it doesn't originate from him.

Godlike?

Pretty much an enhanced version of Kil'jaeden's "creation". Assuming Kil'jaeden is about as strong as Archimonde: It took 4 "bosses", hundreds of soldiers and thousands of wisps to kill him so... If Blizzard says you need 40 people lvl 90 to kill him, he could pretty much be "solo'd" by one of the Dragon Aspects if they use potions. Don't forget that Sargeras, who is an actual god in the lore, holds control over Kil'jaeden.

I don't know exactly how strong he is compared to Kil'jaeden, but he's definitely no match for Sargeras, ergo he is no match for the Titans or even Elune.

We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being. It's also arguable that the Lich King is more powerful than Kiljaeden, since he has no need to sustain himself on magic and he has grown in power since his creation. Also note that according to the Blizzard encyclopedia, Sargeras nor any of the Titans are considered gods. (I would've said the same thing until I read this.) You can see my above post for more specifics. // Montagg (talk · contr) Montag 19:01, 15 November 2006 (EST)

"We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being."

Actually, I think we can assume that Elune is more powerful than Archimonde, as he was unable to pierce the protection she provided Tyrande in The Sundering. --Austin P 08:51, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

According to the Lands of Mystery, his current goal is apparantly to subjugate all life on Azeroth and reign over them as a God. Since he hasn't completed this goal yet, it's probably fair to say that he hasn't quite reached the status of God yet, but perhaps is a demigod or close to being a godlike being. His stats in the Manual of Monsters are also apparantly the equivalent of other gods and deities in the D20 RPG system, whatever that's worth. Suzaku 16:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

im actually interested in knowing who is stronger, the lich king, or azshara, if the lich king is stronger and the northrend expansion is next with top lvl 80, then azshara and the mid sea expansion is out, it wont make sense. azshara is strong, but they could have it that the lich kind is not complete yet, as they both merged, but the unified entity requires time to comprehend and take full control of its/his power, as partly a former shaman and former paladin, the lich kind might if had enough time, force the light and the elementals to be under his control, not forgetting the undead and the powers to conrtol such darkness. he might have aquired god-like power, but can he control it yet? and is he a god-like as an immortal only and can be killed by destroying the armour, or did he partially got rid of such weakness after merging with arthas as his soul has partly left the armour to take over and merge with arthas? a lot of questions and really hard to get any answers --lucifersama 08:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

There is also the possibility that Azshara is stronger than the Lich King- Mannoroth says that only Archimonde and Sargeras (and by extension, Kil'jaeden) were her superiors 10,000 years ago- and her powers have definetly increased in that time. The Lich King could never regain Ner'zhul's shamanic powers- even if they took him back during the Second War, they'd never let something like the Lich King gain that sort of power (Arthas's paladin powers are also dead, now his death knight powers). We also have no idea how to kill him. It's possible that killing Arthas normally will kill them both (though it is also possible that the armor is a sort of superphylactery) --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally I believe the Lich King is more powerful, after all he now has the power of two. Powerful as Azshara may be, she is still a single entity, while the Lich King has the most ultimate powers of necromancy at his disposal, along with the experiences and memories of TWO people - Ner'Zhul and Arthas. Even if Azshara WERE more powerful, she only has the experience of one lifetime, while the Lich King has the experiences of two lifetimes. ~ Peregrine

life time ans experience? lich king was created, then started gaining and improving his power, then he joined arthas, arthas is kinda strong but his lifespan was meaningless, too short. wile azshara, i mean azshara was strong from the begining, and how old do you think she is anyway :P ? imagine if she started to improve her powers and gaining more tricks and abilitites through all that time. its still hard to decide which one of them is stronger, but its easier for blizz to make azshara in a way or another stronger than the lich king which can make her appear in a diff expansion as final raid boss ^^. i still like the lich king though :P --lucifersama 22:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

He's right; the fact that Azshara is well over ten thousand years old negates the "two lives" aspect of the Lich King (he's almost certainly a superior swordman, though). I'm not saying that Azshara is more powerful, just that it can't be assumed that the Lich King is. --cursor:help;" title="Admin">Ragestorm</span>]] (talk · contr) 00:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not necessarily the fact that the lifetimes were longer, it's that the Lich King has the benefit of two perspectives, two outlooks. Arthas would handle a situation one way with pros and cons, Ner'Zhul would handle a problem a different way with pros and cons... put them together into the same mind and they'll come up with the perfect solution. Or near-perfect, anyways. I think if you pitted Nazjatar agaisnt Icecrown, the undead would win, mostly because... well they're undead. Fallen Naga would rise up and join the ranks of the scourge. As for a 1-on-1 between Azshara and the Lich King, TLK was augmented by Kil'Jaeden... but of course Azshara was turned into Naga by the Old Gods themselves, though that is no indication of greater power. My best guess would be that the Lich King would win, based solely on comments by Blizzard referring to the Lich King as having equal power as a demigod or even a god. ~ Peregrine

Azshara is also placed in that power bracket.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Reference? ~ Peregrine

[4] I admit, it's written from the angle that her fate is unknown, but since she's pretty much confirmed as alive in other sources, it's safe to keep her in that bracket. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The Alliance and Horde Compendium said the Lich king is the most powerful being ever walk upon Azeroth. In Alliance player s guide it said the Lich king is the strongest being in the world. So he is more powerful than not only Azshara, but also Archimonde. Joker 4 July 2007

What's the exact quote?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Alliance and Horde Compendium:

Arthas attained the Frozen Throne...and merged with Ner'zhul's spirit to become the new Lich King, the most powerful being ever to walk upon Azeroth....

Alliance player's guide:

And for the former prince, Arthas? He took the mantle of his former master, the Lich King, and crowned himself, becoming the strongest being in the world.

Joker 4 July 2007

RPG wise Aszhera as an Eternal, after she obtained demigod status is CR52 (as seen in Shadows & Light published after A&HC). The book gave her a higher challenge rating than the Lich King Arthas CR50 (as seen in Manual of Monsters, published before A&HC). What does it imply? When Aszhera "walked the earth" she was not as powerful as she is in her current demigod mutant form, she doesn't exactly "walk the earth" anymore, but rather swims or if she ever surfaces, "slithers".

I repeat Lich King Arthas only has a CR50 compared to Aszhera's CR52. So in the RPG Aszhera is slightly more powerful than the Lich King.

How they will turn out in World of Warcraft is up in the air, as the system used in the MMO is considerably different, and it more or less depends on which order the expansions are released, and if one or both are released.Baggins 04:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Lich King's data was in MoM, Bob Fitch said his data had some problems and he should be an eternal. Joker 4 July 2007

At CR50 he would be an Eternal most likely, :), its not much less than Aszhara's CR52. In anycase I suggest you read; WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Official_sources_of_lore for unpublished quotes from designers, blizzard employees, authors etc.

In anycase as I said Lich King walks, the current Aszhara swims and slithers. There is a big difference, if we are going to take potential hyperbole literally.

It would also really depend on if Zin-Azshari Instance was released before Icecrown instance or vice versa. If Ashara's palace was released first she'd be weaker than the encounters in Icecrown. If it was released after Lich King battle she would be more powerful to correspond with levels the players would have to obtain to battle her.Baggins 04:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"We don't really have a reference for Elune's power relative to any other being."

Actually if you went by RPG stats for use for comparisons, her levels and her challenge rating as seen in Shadows & Light are the highest in the RPG (in both versions of the RPG), bypassing as far as I know any other character in the game, as a level 85 healer, and CR92. However that really doesn't matter much as she usually never interferes and when she does its said that she is able to promote a sense of peace among all those warring, stopping the battles.Baggins 04:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, firstly CR only means how difficult they are when we players tries to challenge them, and it's all just GAME DATA. Second, even if Azshara is not include in "walk upon", the new book said the Lich King is the strongest being in the world, not Azshara. I really don't want to talk about Elune. Blizzard just give her some ALL POWERFUL background and use her as a tool to "give power" when the story can not go on, such as when Tyrande was captured. Joker 4 July 2007

First off, "Alliance & Horde" is not a new book. Shadows and Light was publishe after Alliance & Horde, and it isn't a "new book" either. I agree, it all comes down to "Game Data". MMO has its own system of "Game Data" as well. If Aszhara encounter happened before Lich King encounter in the World of Warcraft, Aszhara would be weaker and require less levels by the players to defeat. If her encounter was released in an expansion set after the Lich King encounter she would be more powerful than the Lich King, in order to create the next challenge. That's simply how the MMO works.

Additionally the RPG is often from an In-universe perspective. Brann for example in his books published after (Shadows & Light) calls Lich King and Asharara are both the most powerful beings in the world, depending on the source. He doesn't put one over the other in specific paragraphs (although one might say his opinions might be conflicting at times, though he often is giving other people's opinions not his own), although he treats Aszhara as an "Eternal" and doesn't seem to do the same thing for the Lich King.

So its possible what writer of the MoM writeup would have done (in hindsight) is not in agreement with how later authors of the RPG decided to take things.

As a side note neither Archimonde nor Kil'jaeden are Eternals in Shadows & Light, but rather "Lords of the Burning Legion". Considering he is not an Eternal the odds that he could "create" an Eternal is less likely. Sargeras is an Eternal, although he isn't the one that empowered the Lich King. Whoever wrote Shadows & Light had a different thing in mind for what were eternals and what were simply "demonic entities", or creatures created by demonic power.

"Elune is more powerful than Archimonde"

Indeed, again going by RPG stats as seen in Shadows & Light, his classes aren't given however his CR is only 59. He is more powerful than the mutant Aszhara, though he is not an "Eternal" but rather demonic force.Baggins 05:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition, remember that in WotA, Elune's protection over Tyrande prevented Archimonde from touching her, whatever he tried. Kirkburn talk contr 14:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It also seems Azhshara is treated as merely a legend, a myth. The average person in the warcraft universe does not worry about her, as she has never reared her head in 10,000-14,000 years (depending on the timeline used). Infact many don't even seem to think she exists. Arthas and the Lich King on the other hand are very "real", People have witnessed what they has done in their lifetimes, and they know how much of a danger they are, especially as one being.Baggins 15:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Alliance Player's guide is published in 2006, S&L is 2004. Because the book said Lich King is the strongest, not Azshara,and it's in the history part. I think it's meanless to argue about it again since Blizzard already gave us the answer. Joker 5 July 2007

Alliance Player's Guide is from Brann's POV, not "blizzard's pov". He has only had witness to current history. Again he tends to treat Aszhara as a myth and legend, on that may not "even exist". He isn't sure is stories about her are true or not, or even if she is still alive. If she is a myth, how powerful could she really be? (if someone believes something isn't real, then they are likely going to think there is no power at all). Thus he only quotes claims by others that have said she is one of the most powerful beings in Azeroth, although he can't confirm of deny those claims, he himself thinks Lich King is the most powerful as there is tangible and eye witness confirmation of his existence. He is not a credible source of knowledge for "how powerful" Aszhara is as no one mortal has ever witnissed her power in her current state. She is simply a mystery.

However in the end it all comes down to which expansion is released first.

If Northrend/Icecrown is released first Lich King will lower level fight than Aszhara. If malestrom/south seas is released first then Aszhara would be less difficult than later Lich King fight.

Which ever is the second expansion, would require more levels for to complete the boss content content. This is the system as things are currently done in the MMO.

Its also very difficult to compare the systems used in the RPG to what happens in MMO game mechanics. Case in point everyone's favorite boss Edwin VanCleef as far as RPG stat levels is similar to nearly every other major boss character in other zones in the non-linear progression system of the RPG, he has higher levels and is more powerful than stuff found in Burning Steppes for example, for example Gorn. Van Cleef is 13th level, gorn is only 7th level for example. As seen in Lands of Conflict.

However, in World of Warcraft he is very low level wise in the MMO due to nature of the MMO's linear zone progression. Gorn is far more powerful than Vancleef level wise.

If Northrend ended up being a higher level zone than south seas then enemies there would be more powerful than enemies found in the south seas. However if South Seas is released after Northrend, then the south seas will be a higher level zones than Northrend and the content in south seas will be more powerful than content in Northrend. Its simply how the progression works in World of Warcraft. Its a very linear progression system, unlike that used in the RPG. But I think you seem to be denying the fact that the mechanics are very different in both systems.Baggins 16:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"Indeed, again going by RPG stats as seen in Shadows & Light, his classes aren't given however his CR is only 59"

Nonono, you're thinking of Kil'jaeden. Archimonde's CR is only 50.

To futher add to the speculation regarding RPG power levels, Archimonde is only 50 while Malorne is 62. Despite this, it didn't take Archimonde very long to beat Malorne in The Sundering. --Austin P 17:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many of the challenge ratings in the book don't compare well (since the authors of different chapters seemed to use different formulas). They're not necessarily reflective of "who'd win in a one-on-one fight", anyway (the CR number is supposed to represent a level at which a balanced party of four characters could defeat the creature as a reasonable challenge, expending roughly 20% of their daily resources). You'd be better off comparing the creatures' actual statistics (or perhaps running mock battles) - having a higher CR (for whatever reason) won't help if one can't actually hit the other. Egrem 20:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

In anycase as far as it goes in WoW it looks like the requirements to take on the lich king will be level 80, where as Queen Azshara will have to wait for another expansion if she is to appear in the game, which means her levels would likely be upwards of 90 or higher. As mentioned before different games, different systems.Baggins 09:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

They said that players wouldn't stand a chance against Arthas until level 90. Does this mean they're making him weaker than they had originally envisioned? --Austin P 13:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently...Baggins 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If Arthas is going to be defeated in WotLK, I believe the actual raid event itself will have a couple of Deus Ex Machina to down him. It just doesn't seem possible that a raid of unknowns and probably 1 or 2 notable "mortal" characters to down the Lich King on his own turf. --Invin Dranoel 13:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It said that the Lich King is the second strongest being in the World of Warcraft universe,his behind the Titans and Old Gods —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ksergey (talk · contr).

Where does it say that?--Austin P 19:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

infobox title

"Evil Incarnate" does not work for the following reasons:

1) It does not give any information relating to the character.
2) It can also be applied to any number of villains, including but not limited to: C'Thun (and other Old Gods), Sargeras, Kil'jaeden, Hakkar the Soulflayer, Gul'dan, Cho'gall, Mannoroth, Tichondrius, Azshara, Xavius, Deathwing, Onyxia, Nefarian, Gruul the Dragonkiller (and other Gronn).

-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:03, 20 February 2007 (EST)

The Lich King in World of Warcraft

From a game perspective, players could expect nearly anything from the Lich King. His antecedent beings were both members of hybrid classes who switched to other classes. Ner'zhul, a former Shaman turned Warlock, merged with Arthas, a Paladin who became a Death Knight. Such a being would have command of nearly any power in the game-- thus if such an encounter is ever designed, game designers would have unprecedented flexibility in designing his powers.

I'm not sure what the author of these sentences meant by 'any power in the game'. Ner'zhul and Arthas' shaman/paladin powers went down the drain immediately after taking on their new 'classes', right? 'Godlike' or not, turn your back on the spirits and the Holy Light, your requests are as good as ignored. Super Bhaal 05:24, 2 March 2007 (EST)

What is meant by: "Ner'zhul, a former Shaman turned Warlock"?

Because Ner'zhul have always been a Shaman before he was turned into the Lich King. --Odolwa 07:50, 2 March 2007 (EST)

I think he did embrace a few of the warlock magicks in RotH. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:26, 2 March 2007 (EST)

In the RPG, Gul'dan had a mixed class including Warlock & Shaman classes, with skills and knowledge from each of them (although certainly not the whole gambit of powers open to a pure "shaman", or a "full" warlock). The Burning Crusade opened up the idea of a Dark Shaman class, for NPCs as well (although at this point in time many of the Elemental spirits are corrupt and more likely to help aid evil). What does this mean? Sure the "Lich King Arthas" might have a little of everything from past knowledge of both of his halves, but that doesn't mean he has access to "all" the abilities of previous beings open to him (but he might be able to use some of them).Baggins 18:28, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Accuracy

I edited it to be more historically accurate Rikshaw

Grow up. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Class Levels and Abilities

Though the Manual of Monsters does not explicitly state the Lich King's class levels, and stats for the non-merged Arthas and Ner'zhul were never officially published, Bob Fitch (one of the lead programmers on almost every Blizzard game, and the author of several RPG writeups) had this to say about them (in a forum post dated January 18th, 2004):

=== Ner'zhul ===

Fighter 1

He sensed a spiritual connection in himself.

Healer 4

He continued his spiritual advancement.

Shaman 10

He was corrupted by fel magic. Through epic power he was turned from a 15th level character directly into a 35th level Lich. He acquired 20 levels of specialist Wizard and the Lich template at the same time. Can’t get that with some ordinary wish eh!? =P

=== Arthas ===

Fighter 5

Healer 1

Paladin Warrior 10

Fighter 6

Somewhere near the end he acquired Frostmourne and lost his Paladin Warrior levels. Like a Blackguard, they were converted to Death Knight levels. (However, you should know there was no DK prestige class at the time. I made it up. But what I made was not what we’re going to publish because the real author of the DK was already at work on it when I needed to make up the class for Arthas. I don’t really care though because that Arthas was not going to be published. I only needed a DK Arthas version for the “combination step” that produced the new and improved Lich King.)

Technically there were some additional levels added to Arthas after acquiring Frostmourne because he was gaining energy from Ner’zhul in an epic, undocumented, story-driven manner. He started to weaken as Ner’zhul weakened, but got all the power back again and more as he neared the Frozen Throne. When he faced Illidan at the end, Illidan had already been weakened through battle throughout days of battle with Arthas’ undead forces, and Arthas had some “fake” levels acquired from Frostmourne and his proximity to Ner’zhul. Arthas was still a bit lower (almost 30 maybe) level but Illidan was nearly spent. It was a pretty close fight.

Lich King

I combined the Ner’zhul and DK Arthas characters I had created by stacking their levels. Arthas’ Ftr6 and Ner’zhul’s Ftr1 becamse Ftr7. Hlr4 plus Hlr1 became Hlr5. Arthas’ DK levels were transferred directly. Ner’zhul’s Necromancer and Shaman levels were transferred directly.

Thus, using the original Warcraft RPG class system, we get:

Ner'zhul (Elder Shaman): Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10

Ner'zhul (Lich King): Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10, Wizard (Necromancer) 20

Arthas (Paladin): Fighter 6, Healer 1, Paladin Warrior 10

Arthas (Death Knight): Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10

The Lich King: Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Wizard (Necromancer) 20

Converting that to the new WoW RPG class system, we get:

Ner'zhul (Elder Shaman): Warrior 1, Shaman 14

Ner'zhul (Lich King): Warrior 1, Shaman 14, Necromancer 20

Arthas (Paladin): Warrior 6, Priest 1, Paladin 10

Arthas (Death Knight): Warrior 6, Priest 1, Death Knight 10

The Lich King: Warrior 7, Shaman 15, Death Knight 10, Necromancer 20

Mr. Fitch admitted that 42 HD for the Lich King in Manual of Monsters was an error (it should have been 52 HD) and that he would've been written as an Eternal if those rules were available at the time.

Egrem 18:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, however "elder shaman" isn't even a class in the Warcraft or World of Warcraft RPG. As a side note alot of NPCs in early RPG were listed without "class" types.

In anycase since this comes from a source outside of what was actually published, it can't be inserted into the article as a "definitive statement of fact", as it can't be considered "official" but rather designer opinion. See WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Official_sources_of_lore. Secondly for the most part we try to avoid anything having to do with stat based information, Challenge Ratings, or HD or whatever. Although they are fine in the talk page, if people really want to bring it up. However thank you for giving us the interesting information. Hopefully it'll open up a discussion here.Baggins 04:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that elder shaman was a class or template; I was just using it as a title (to show which version of the character, orc or lich, was being referred to at the time).

As for the other characters in the Manual of Monsters that didn't have their classes listed, Kel'Thuzad was a Necromancer 25 (with the lich template) and Sylvanas was a Fighter 10, Sorcerer 10, Elven Ranger 10 (with the banshee template). As mentioned above, the Lich King was a Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Necromancer 20 - he had both the lich template and the SRD deity template (at divine rank 0), with the latter subbing in for the eternal template (which didn't exist at the time).

Another interesting part of the above quote is the mechanical explanation for how Arthas (Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10) was able to defeat Illidan (Sorcerer 20, Rogue 8, Fighter 7) despite the huge difference in levels/experience (which makes sense considering Illidan was 15,032 and Arthas was only 24). Arthas stopped leveling up normally once he acquired Frostmourne, and instead gained power from Ner'zhul through the sword (this is the same power he began to lose over the course of the Frozen Throne campaign). In the context of the RPG, I'd use positive levels to represent this (like negative levels but in reverse). Stick 10 of those on Arthas (after Ner'zhul recharged him) and consider that he was a very melee-focused character... whereas Illidan spent almost 60% of his levels on spellcasting classes (which didn't help in their last battle since neither cast any spells).

Egrem 22:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, however I'm not so sure S&L writers who wrote the section on Eternals, had the Eternal's template in mind for Arthas. The way they designed rules and how the template is applied lore wise according to the Eternal chapter of the book doesn't seem to fit Arthas at all.

All the Eternals in the book are literally originally gods, demigods created by Eternals, or creatures who were transformed by Eternals into Eternals from before 10,000 years in the past. Aszhara became an eternal due to Well of Eternity, a source of power from the Titans, as well as possibly influence by the Old Gods. Lord Xavious was transformed into an Eternal by the Eternal Sargeras.
Simply having immortality does not make one an Eternal.
Simply gaining power from an Eternal is not always enough to become an Eternal.
Eternals are beings only known in legends to the people of Azeroth. They are ancient powers. They are not often encountered on the mortal plane or haven't been seen in centuries (thus why they become legends). They are rarely seen but influence of the ancient powers is always present.^{S&L 67}
All Eternals were created before 10,000 years before World of Warcraft, and were rarely seen by most mortals after that time. During that time and after they have had either obvious or subtle influence on the long history of the world.^{S&L 68,69}
At the time S&L takes place no other Eternals have been created in recent times, however the possibility does exist. The book wonders, which great champion of goodor twisted practioner of evil will enter their ranks next? This points out there haven't been any recently created Eternals.^{S&L 69}

All this evidence makes me conclude that the authors of Eternal template, did not have Arthas in mind for Eternal status. They intended it to represent unique individuals that existed before the dawn of civilization. Now Arthas would likely get the "Elite" template however, as the rules for it are designed around modern day epic beings.Baggins 16:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Also of note the authors of the conversion document written after S&L didn't give Arthas the Eternal template either, so the template was probably not on those authors minds for that character as well..Baggins 08:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

That's not right, Medivh is eternal and he was born less than one hundred years ago... Also, Bob Fitch is the author of Eternal template, so what he said should be right.

Master3 14 Aug 2007

Its probably an issue where the author of Medivh and the author of the Eternal sections of the book didn't communicate with each other. Because the Eternal section itself says specifically that no Eternals have been seen in thousands of years, and asks the question of who will be the next one, :p...

Or its a gameplay mechanic to make medivh playable and not intended to be actual lore. As it is Medivh's never mentioned to be an Eternal in his lore, nor is it explained, its only listed in his statistics.

Actually the specific author or authors of the Eternal template isn't even mentioned in the book, is it? Not sure if the credits list who specifically wrote each part of the book, but the book was definitely was written by multiple authors.

Still the Lich King was never updated in future books, and infact the Eternal Template has never shown up in any other books other than old Warcraft RPG's Shadows and Light... Perhaps the rules were never updated when the World of Warcraft RPG was created?

Rumor has it that Lich King will have his stats updated in the upcoming Dark Factions, so we'll have to wait and see what the current RPG teams have planned.Baggins 03:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok an update according to the S&L credits^{S&L 2};

Tim Campbell and Bob Fitch both were the authors of the Eternals Article. Its unclear which parts each worked on exactly. Both also worked on parts of the Legends section as well (its unclear which parts they worked on exactly), along with several other authors including Bruce Graw, Luke Johnson, and Seth Johnson.

Its unclear which author decided to give Medivh the Eternal template. But it would seem either Tim Cambell or Bob Fitch or both had a completely different interpretation of what "Eternal" meant according to their article, than the person who made the stats for Medivh, in as much as they stated that all Eternals were created thousands of years before.

Since Bob Fitch now "claims" that he had always planned to use the Eternal template on Lich King, that would imply that the "lore history" behind Eternals was probably the work of Tim Cambell. Still one would think that if the two authors were working on the article together they would have tried to make sure they were in agreement. So perhaps Bob Fitch has just retroactively changed his mind, and you know what they say about hindsighte, its 20/20. However its still very important to note that the Eternals template wasn't only Bob Fitch's work, he shares honor with another author, Tim Cambell.Baggins 04:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

One more possibility, the Medivh section is mostly about the period of time when he was possessed by Sargeras, so its possible he received the Eternal template due to that. When Sargeras took over he literally became "Sargeras", and Sargeras is an Eternal according to the Eternal section. Of course Sargeras has existed since before 10,000 years ago, fitting the idea established history in the Eternal template article for existing Eternals.

Bagginstalk § contr

Lich King Arthas classes (or near-classes)

I've looked through MoM again. He isn't given straight classes, but he is listed as casting several abilities as certain classes, or using abilities that are equivalent to some other classes' abilities.

This includes this information;

He can use his elemental mastery skills the same as a 20th level evil cleric's undead mastery skills. (he isn't a dark cleric, his ability just functions the same way as a specific dark cleric ability.)

He casts undead mastery skills as a 42nd level cleric (this seems to specifically define him as a cleric, at least for this ability, opposed to just using the mechanics of that class' ability).

He can rebuke living as a 20th level cleric would rebuke undead. (This is saying this ability isn't a cleric's ability but uses the same mechanics as the cleric's ability)

He casts spell-like abilities, abilities that are psionic in origin, but are otherwise as the spells cast by a 42nd-level sorcerer. (this seems to say that he isn't a sorcerer, but casts the abilities in the same way a sorcerer casts his spells.)

He casts spells as a 14th level healer, with access to the shaman spell list, and as a 20-th level wizard. (these also seem to specifically list him as a healer/shaman and wizard as opposed to just having mechanics like those classes.) This makes some sense since Ner'zhul was a shaman in life.

He can Rebuke Undead/Outsiders as a 30th level cleric.(this also seems to say at least for this spell he is a cleric, although he is obviously different level of cleric ability than his "undead mastery" ability.)

In no way do these comments seem to be specific or definite listing of his classes (so they aren't worthy of inclusion in his infobox), but they do give some general ideas to class types he might have.Baggins 03:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As described above, his build in that book is Fighter 7, Healer 5, Shaman 10, Death Knight 10, Wizard [Necromancer] 20, as a combination of Ner'zhul's levels (Fighter 1, Healer 4, Shaman 10, Wizard [Necromancer] 20) and Arthas' (Fighter 6, Healer 1, Death Knight 10). He also has the abilities of the Lich template (as described in the Manual of Monsters) and divine rank 0 (as described in Deities & Demigods). This was confirmed by the author and can be verified if you reverse-engineer his stats (adding up caster levels, number of feats, skill ranks, etc). There are a few catches, though: 1) The death knight class wasn't available then, so he had to make his own version (with abilities like harm touch); 2) The eternal template wasn't available then, which is why he used divine rank 0 from D&D; 3) His HP, attacks, and saves are calculated as though he has 42 HD rather than 52 HD (though he retains all the feats, skills, and class abilities of his full 52 levels). Egrem 17:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually he doesn't officially have a true build in the book, beyond a few references I quoted above to his various "casting levels" above (20th cleric/evil cleric, 30 cleric, and 42nd cleric, 14th healer/shaman, 42nd sorcerer, and 20th wizard), though perhaps you'd like to me give the page numbers for those references, see page 184 and 185). Surprisingly the casting levels became actual class levels for most of the other characters in the books that received repeated class stats in later RPG books, for example Sylvanas, and Kel'Thuzad (both's caster levels became there class levels in Lands of Conflict, and had official conversions into WoW rpg mechanics).

Lich King Arthas was never mentioned with class levels in any other book, although he had plenty of chances. The team behind World of Warcraft RPG never gave him conversion data in the conversion document for some reason. Currently the Eternal template is partially outdated as it was never actually updated to WoWRPG rules. Although there were similar rules in existence under some of the stuff in the "elite" template and "Outsider Type" classification in Monster Guide.

Point of note this is pure speculation, but I think the future rpg writers and designers avoided using the Eternal-template system in later books due to the difficulty of actually finding a copy of Shadows & Light after it went out of print.

Also without confirmation, what Bob Fitch gave Arthas after the fact may be just that, a build designed after the fact. Its not considered as reliable as a published source by wowwiki lore policy, as it was not actually published fact, to quote the policy;

Comments by authors, artists, and Blizzard employees may also be of interest, but should always be clearly cited as such, and not taken as definitive statements of fact.

BTW, I don't think I've seen a link to Bob Fitch's post either to see how much of Manual of Monsters or the Lich King article he was actually involved with, or claims to have been involved with.

Again I point out that the authors who wrote the Eternal's rules and lore section in Shadows & Light specifically states that there has not been a 'new' Eternal in over 10,000 years or so. So who ever wrote the Medivh section either was referring to fact his Eternal power traits were given through the posessing Sargeras (which is implied by the article), or it was a mistake altogether. This implies that the either the author Tim Campbell had more to do with the Eternal rules and regulations article, than Bob Fitch did. ...or Bob Fitch forgot some of the rules that he co-wrote, or changed his mind somewhere after the fact.

As for a "Divine rank 0" I don't actually see that listed in my copy of the Manual of Monsters. What page number is that on. I also don't see the lich template applied to him either, care to mention what page number?

Also it doesn't look like anyone pointed this out, but those quotes from Bob Fitch were written almost a year before the release of Shadows & Light (he made his post in january of 2004, Shadows & Light wasn't published until well into october-november 2004). So what you have there are concept ramblings and discussion of a future released product, which can be considered outdated by the eventually released S&L product. Essentially this is the same thing as any ramblings one hears about Dark Factions by Luke Johnston, which may not be part of the actual finished product if it is ever released. Concept material is never as reliable as the finished product. Basically the finalized rules in Shadows & Light replaced any of Bob Fitch's earlier conceptual ideas for the template (its apparent that somewhere along the line someone changed their minds).Baggins 23:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Fitch's post was made on the old Warcraft RPG message boards (which no longer exist, having been replaced by a subforum on White Wolf's boards) shortly after the Manual of Monsters was released. He was the author of the artifacts and characters in the Villains section of the Manual of Monsters, and answered several questions about how he built those characters. I saved a few of those posts for future reference (such as the one I quoted above).

Nowhere in the Lich King's article does it explicitly state which class levels and/or templates were used to build him, that's true, but through discussions with the author and my own examination of his stats, I can guarantee you that he was built as I described above. :) See my talk page for a breakdown of his stats. Egrem 00:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Again I saw the dates of the posts you posted above, they predate the release of Shadows & Light by almost a complete year, and quite a few future released RPG books. So they are no more reliable than any other concept notes or artwork made before the finished products.

...and as said before, unless its published;

Comments by authors, artists, and Blizzard employees may also be of interest, but should always be clearly cited as such, and not taken as definitive statements of fact.Baggins 00:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Also I probably should point out the main reason why it seems future released books tend to avoid using templates from previously released books, is probably because of the lifespan of the previous books, they become out of print months after the release of the books, and become nearly impossible to track down. So for average rpg players out there it would be hard to use rules they don't have access to. Thus putting templates (the GMs have no access) onto characters in a later book just becomes confusing to the game masters. Instead they rely on whatever rules work best within that particular product itself, or as references to future products. The stats work best if they are only connected to special rules established within the book itself. If GMs have access to other books they can choose to apply templates to characters as they see fit. Its poor business if a GM is given essentially a "broken character" to use because they don't have access to all the rules related to that character, and how it interacts with other established rules.Baggins 00:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What I posted on my talk page doesn't say anything about what he might be like if he were revised now, though... rather, it details how he was built in Manual of Monsters (using what the author had available to him at the time). Just so people can get a better idea of why he was given the abilities, feats, etc. that he was. You can verify every step of it by checking his stats in your copy of the book. Egrem 00:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Point of note, some of the stats you have listed in the stuff on your page doesn't even show up in the book so its very difficult to verify anything you said by using Manual of Monsters. I've given some of the data from manual of monsters above, it doesn't actually match up with the stuff you have listed on your talk page very well. Also you claimed he got the "lich template" I don't see that listed anywhere in his stats in the MoM (it does list he has "independent" type however), nor is there any listing of "Divine Rank 0" in the book that I could find. All of that is purely invented outside of the book. Nor does he have some of the abilities you have listed, or at least not in the same way. The stuff in the book uses a very different system. To be honest I get the impression that he may have written the text writeup in Manual of Monsters, but the editors came around and adjusted things from what he had intended, before the release of the final product.Baggins 01:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

However, I think I see what your trying to say however, these were just ideas that went into designing him. Like I said concept ideas, whereas the book was the finished product after it went through the editors (and removed references to were certain things came from). There are a few places where the editors got things wrong perhaps, because there are certain "typos" where things won't work due to the math. and the ways the rules work.Baggins 01:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I was trying to explain the process that went into designing him (and I apologize if I haven't been clear). I know that the printed book doesn't actually say which classes and/or templates were used in his construction... but even without that information given, the abilities he gained from those sources remain in his stats. (For another example: if the line telling you that Kael'thas is a 15th-level wizard and 14th-level fighter was removed from his writeup before the book saw print, he'd still be a 15th-level wizard and 14th-level fighter for all intents and purposes... it would just be harder for readers to figure that out). Kel'Thuzad and Sylvanas are in the same boat - their class levels aren't given, but someone with enough d20 experience can determine how they were built by examining their stats.

That's what I was trying to do with the Lich King - work out and show which classes and templates and such were used to build him (even though the book won't tell you that), and make sure the final values match those in his writeup in the printed book.

I suspect that most of the confusion here is coming from those abilities that say he uses them "as a 20th-level cleric" or "as a 42nd-level sorcerer". Those abilities are not coming from his class levels, but from templates, items, or salient abilities. For instance, the Lich King's spell-like abilities (which are an example of a power inherent to the Lich King, not coming from class levels) are cast as though by a 42nd-level sorcerer. This doesn't mean that he is a 42nd-level sorcerer - he has none of the other spellcasting abilities, bonus feats, etc. to go along with that - but they still had to give the abilities some sort of caster level for the sake of determining level-dependant variables like spell range, for use during caster level checks, and so on. The rebuking abilities treat him as a cleric of X level for the same reason (even though he doesn't possess any of the other traits he'd get from having cleric levels). Egrem 06:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the thing is the other stuff , like clerics, dark clerics, sorcerers, and even higher level wizards, etc aren't even mentioned in fitch's concept material list of templates (but maybe it reads word for word in the original templates, I don't have access to that stuff personally). Its seems like that stuff cropped in once the editors got their hands on the initial material. Perhaps to balance some things. Like I said there there appears to be some distinct differences between what he may have initially designed, and what actually went to print once his co-authors/editors got their hands on his material. There may be more to the behind the scenes process than we'll really ever know.Baggins 08:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Overmind of Warcraft?

Similarly to how I pointed out that Sylvanas may be the Warcraft equivalent of Kerrigan from Starcraft, the Lich King shares many many similarities to the Overmind of the Zerg in Starcraft.

both were created as experiments to be used as a greater pawn for another race.
both eventually expanded their "magic/psychic" abilities to control their forces more and more.
both eventually also grew independent and their overseers tried to "pull the plug" but it was too late.
both eventually grew to become the largest threats in their respective mainstream universes.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venixer (talk · contr).

You do realize that they were made by the same people, and that material is always recycled, right? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

oh yes, obviously since Blizzard made them, more specifically, Chris Metzen has a huge part in the creation of both franchises, but I feel that the originality is severly lacking. Though I don't want an article made about how unorigional it is, just that there are many similaries --Venixer 00:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The way the you build scourge in warcraft III, was similar to a cross between Zerg, and protoss imo. Blight on which Scourge much build buildings is very similar to Creep. The way scourge summon buildings was similar to the protoss, way of transporting buildings to the construction area.Baggins 00:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not think you will need to crash a naaru ship into Icecrown to kill him though. Just 25 raiders.--SWM24 48 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That'd be a cool plot twist, in order to destroy the Lich King, Velen needs to crash the Exodar into Icecrown Glacier... ~ Peregrine

My prophet, we have finally repaired the Exodar and... Why did you teleport it over Northrend? Wait- AAH!--SWM24 48 22:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

En Taro Velen, brave sons of Argus. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Heh heh!!!Baggins 15:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That would probably also piss Kael'thas off a lot more than he already is about the whole Exodar thing: "Okay, lemme get this straight: They crashed it into Azeroth, then they fixed the damn thing, and then they crashed it AGAIN?! An'she, who lets these guys do the piloting?" --Joshmaul 11:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep the comments in-universe, please ;-) Yep. I think it's safe to say draenei piloting skill leave something to be desired. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The Lich King's Armor

I don't think the current speculation on the armor and Frostmourne makes any sense. If the Lich King would have created Frostmourne without Kil'jaedens approval, why would the agents of the Burning Legion (the dreadlords) use it to lure Arthas on their side? They surely were aware of these items, why shouldn't they have told their true master about it?

I think a more logical approach might be that the armor was the most probable approach to capture one's soul, as it has to be imprisoned in "some" item and anything else could have been to odd for a true king. Or maybe the armor was even meant to be worn by a powerful Legion officer later on, who could have been appointed by Kil'jaeden for this job?--Tulon 23:55, 4 August 2007

I think the demons knew his plan but were too overconfedent to care.--SWM24 48 23:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I find the whole "Ner'zhul forged the blade thing" a bit wonky, myself. Psionics are all well and good, but they can't allow a noncorporeal being to forge a greatsword. It's more likely that Kil'jaeden made it, put it in the Frozen Throne (perhaps as an aid for collecting souls or something). -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody said he forged it specifically, once Kil'Jaeden empowered Ner'Zhul he could most likely have created it with his thoughts. Besides, Frostmourne was a shard of the Frozen Throne to begin with, and I doubt Ner'Zhul would allow anyone else to come in contact with it. ~ Peregrine

The story section of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/ makes it clear the the armor and sword long predate Ner'zhul. Egrem 05:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Ner'zhul's spirit was magically shackled to a suit of ancient armor and bound to the mighty runeblade Frostmourne. To ensure Ner'zhul's obedience, Kil'jaeden sealed the armor and blade within a specially crafted block of ice collected from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether.

Ah, then the armour was there from before. That also will means that even that big "pinnacle" of ice wasn't made by Ner'Zhul "crashing" as others stated (not even the doors below but still the enslaved nerubians could do them before Arthas's arriving). Intriguing how Kil may play the strings in the next expansion. (when is "soon" by the way?)

Ravenore , the Necroshadowmancer 00:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Any Power?

"As a combination of Ner'zhul (a former shaman turned necromancer) and Arthas (a paladin who became a death knight), the Lich King may have command of nearly any power in the game." - Actually, he seized to be a paladin upon becoming a death knight, and apparently the devs themselves have stated that he lost his paladin-levels including the abilities, which would fit into what we know of paladin lore from the Warcraft RPG (a paladin loses his powers upon turning evil). That said, this section should probably be edited, as the Lich King would most likely not be able to call upon the Holy Light. Which would be strange, anyways, as this kind of energy only hurts the undead - it cannot help them. Any comments? -- Tulon 01:00, 7 August 2007

Will we fight him? If so, who will help?

If he's going to be a boss in the upcoming expansion, I wonder who might help us. Akama and Maiev participate in the battle against Illidan, so it makes sense that players would fight alongside other lore characters.

Akama and Maiev both had their reasons for wanting Illidan defeated. Who are the enemies of this Lich King?

Sylvanas is the most obvious one. She hates him.

Jaina, perhaps, given her prior relationship with Arthas and his responsibility for the fall of Lordaeron, as well as the slaying of Uther and Antonidas.

Finally, what if Illidan reappeared, having come to his senses and wanting a rematch with Arthas? Not as likely, but still something I'd like to see happen.--Illidan Rocks 19:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Uther's ghost?--SWM24 48 19:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sylvanas and Kael'thas would make most sense if you ask me. Though coolest would be if Illidan took his revenge on Arthas from the last duel! Or maybe Velen? If I were him, I would bear much hatred for Ner'zhul. We'll just have to see =) --Odolwa 00:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sylvanas (definately) and Tirion Fordring (possibly). Hell, both of them are gonna be in Northrend anyway (either temporarily or permanently, who knows?). One question, though: If Sylvanas helps to fight Arthas, will it be Horde only, or will she put politics aside in her quest for revenge? --Joshmaul 14:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Tirion Fordring, Ashbringer and the Silver Hand? I'd be surprised if they wouldn't show up for the showdown, considering Fordring's yelled challenge to Arthas. I'm somewhat disappointed that the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade don't seem to do business in Northrend from what we know up to now. --Tulon 05:55, 10 August 2007

We don't know that. Yet. There was an expedition of the Scarlet Crusade to Northrend; though most of 'em were killed, I'm willing to bet there are still a few about. As for the Argent Dawn...they were created to fight the Scourge, too - they had BETTER be there in some form. If not, then we'll just have to go grab our tabards and represent them ourselves. *grin* --Joshmaul 13:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if kael wont appear until the expansion i would think he'll be one of the lore characters fighting Arthas perhaps even of Kil'jaedens orders,ot maybe if he'll break away from the burning legion to join the fight against Azeroth's enemies

I heard Nihilum downed him yesterday :P. Eh by the way I think as many before me that Sylvanas will be included in this fight, because of numerous reasons. And the second one.. Tirion Fordring. Why he? Because he has Ashbringer and i think that ashbringer will play a very important role in this fight. You know Frostmourne vs. Ashbringer :). And i think this fight will somehow involve Burnig legion. Well.. Will Lich King be just 'another' end boss or will he be really one of the strongest beings in universe. Hm let just wait until its out, I think. --Axell

It's likely to be a very complicated fight. There might be different sets of NPCs fighting him in different stages. Most of the NPCs involved probably will be important lore characters. Sylvanas is obvious, Tirion Fordring, possibly, because the Silver hand definately is mad at Arthas. Jaina might be another one. Kael'thas might also take part in this battle, for the destruction of Quel'thalas. Illidan, if possible, though I think Blizzard killed him off for good. And It would be interesting if, as he dies, you can see the ghosts of all he killed, or was responsible for killing, in the scourge of lorderon. Though, will he die for good? --Tuatha@Garona 15:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If his entry in Manual of Monsters is any indication ( keep in mind that White Wolf gets all their stuff from Blizzard, including possible tactics ) this should give you an idea...

The Lich King leads off with a mind blast and quickened sound burst and a quickened telekinesis literally to throw his enemies into dissaray. While they struggle with the effects of these attacks, the Lich King sends various forms of undead to send them. Once the undead seperate the group sufficiently, the Lich King unloads all manner of violent frost-based spells. Anyone left standing must contend with the Lich King himself as he wields Frostmourne into melee combat. In WoW terms: Mind Blast, some kind of stunning sound, a knockback, a bunch of undead raising spells, lots and lots and lots of AoE frost spells, and a solid ass-whupping with Frostmourne. Not saying that's how it'll be, but if he's going to act like that then I can see some of our friends rushing in to help. Especially, you know, the Silver Hand to take some of the weight off the healer's shoulders and Sylvanas to back the hunters up. What'd really be funny is if Kel'Thuzad all of a sudden helped...they ought to have nice music playing too. --Super Bhaal 17:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

One interresting thing I read in Cycle of Hatred (the novel) was when Jaina reflected her thoughts about Arthas. It's written something like "One day she knows she will have to face him in battle". This may hint that Jaina will be one of the individuals aiding us against this evil incarnate. --Odolwa 20:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that Jaina will help Alliance parties, Sylvanas will help Horde parties, and Tirion Fordring and maybe some knights will help both parties (due to Fordring's previous ecperiences with orcs) ~Peregrine

Not to mention the possibility Uther's ghost might help everybody. As for Jaina and Sylvanas helping their respective factions exclusively, I could easily see both of them saying "screw our differences" and taking shots at him, since he's the common enemy and both have their reasons for wanting him dead. I'm pretty sure if representatives the Alliance came knocking on Sylvanas' door and explained themselves she'd accept their help ( and then probably kill them after ), and Jaina'd just accept help from the Horde because she's with Thrall on the whole "gee, I wish we could get along" thing. Hell, I'm sure Thrall'd come with her... --Super Bhaal 00:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Would be fun if someone semi-evil would help us in the fight against the Lich King. Maiev who helps against Illidan isn't exactly pure goodness for instance. Maybe some agent of the Burning Legion? Not very likely, but would be cool. --Odolwa 13:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've always wondered what it would be like to be fighting alongside a pit lord and an army of infernals.... of course that would also be one of those major "WTF" moments. ~Peregrine

So if Tirion Fordring should really be there (even if i think this is only a cameo like garona in the beta to create interest into the plot) what about a funny reunion with Eitrigg sent by Thrall? I mean a story based on honor and respect, somethink like "You saved my life once, now it's up to me" --N'Nanz 11:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Given that Ner'zhul was the orc that Kil'jaeden contacted first, I can see Thrall wanting to be a part of the Lich King's defeat. But It think Tirion, Sylvanis and Jaina would be more likely canidates. And to add to that Cycle of Hatred reference, it's stated in the Alliance Player's Guide that she hopes to put an end to the Lich King, partially because she blames herself for not being able to help Arthas. --Austin P 23:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hell, bring on Thrall, Sylvanas, Tirion, Jaina, Uther's Ghost, Bronzebeard's Ghost, Terenas' Ghost, Hellscream's Ghost, and just about every other famous Warcraft character who's had Arthas or Ner'zul!!!

Ok, I've really gotta calm down :) Warchiefthrall 12:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

What good would a ghost be? Uther was killed by Arthas. If he would have had the power to kill even after his death, why wouldn't he have used that power on Arthas instantly after his death? No, a ghost is a ghost.--Odolwa 19:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It's fantasy, and more importantly, Warcraft fantasy. Anything can happen! Warchiefthrall 20:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Points at... god there's so many cliches I don't know what to point at. *Points at [insert cliche here]*

Yeah. Anything can happen. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 20:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Well according to the White Wolf article written up somewhere, can't it be possible to actually have tons and tons of undead clashing with uhm.. knights of silver hand or something + racial leaders and the whole bunch of ideas named above "without the dead ones" and instead of music you hear the voices of the important characters killed by Arthas or died because of him while seeing shades of them appear and disappear everywhere without actually taking part in the battle just causing a cool feel of "we're fighting the strongest guy in Azeroth".. and if you defeat the Lich King the spirit of Ner'Zhul appears and thanks you and explaining himself to Thrall because of the interactions Ner'Zhul had with Thrall's father? I mean.. if you've read the novel "Rise of the Horde" Ner'Zhul wasn't the bad guy, he was just mislead and ended up saving the whole orcish race eventually..

~CaiuNariz 18:32, 10 Januari 2008 (UTC)

According to I think Chris Metzen, we will have a choice between either joining him or fighting against him, and this will be an available option to everyone, regardless of race, class or faction. And for the record, the idea of Ner'zhul thanking you for killing him is way too far-fetched, even by Blizzard's standards. Remember, as Ner'zhul states in Road to Damnation,"Let this be your first lesson. I have no love for you or your people. On the contrary, I intend to scour humanity from this planet, and make no mistake: I have the power to do it." There is no logic behind him thanking you for his death, as it would avert his intentions of human eradication. However, Arthas doing so would have a level of sense, as his spirit would be cleansed of the insanity he was put into. Drahauk 22:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So we would be able to join the Scourge? No, you must have dreamed that. That's not gonna happen.--Odolwa 22:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please proffer the reasoning behind us not being able to do so. I am merely stating what I have read. Anyway, we will be able to make a Death Knight, so why not able to join the Scourge? Drahauk 00:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Because it would mess up the game entirely? That would mean that all NPC:s in Alliance/Horde towns become hostile, and all Scourge mobs are suddenly friendly. Why would Blizzrad do something that utterly stupid? We will never be able to be part of an evil faction.--Odolwa 20:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It was explained a while ago that Alliance and Horde NPCs would have unfriendly dialogues with Death Knight PCs, and that faction leaders, while as disdainful of Death Knights as always, have decided that they're a "necessary evil", like the Forsaken being in the Horde; it's like their current position on warlocks: "fight fire with fire".

Of course, if we're talking about a new Scourge faction, that'll be a couple more months added to the wait just for a couple of cities. --Super Bhaal 02:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

How much has the new Lich King done exactly?

Arthas has been sitting down for the best part of five years. Probably in the same constant pose judging from the Wrath of the Lich King trailer (will he be like that during the raid?). Why did Ner'zhul ever merge with the somewhat more mobile kid if all he's going to do is sit around on his ass all day? Why isn't he personally leading millions of undead against the mortal nations and seriously kicking ass with those awesome powers?

And all he's managed is a half-assed invasion of a couple of dozen skeletons against the major cities. Nothing to speak of.

Is all his attention focussed on unsticking his keis

Wikia

Talk:Lich King

From WoWWiki

Contents

Changes

The Lich Kings weakening.

Lich King triumphant Mini-Merge

What exactly happened to Kel'Thuzad?

Lich king in Naxx

"godhood"

Revised

Godhood Reintroduced

Godlike?

infobox title

The Lich King in World of Warcraft

Accuracy

Class Levels and Abilities

Lich King Arthas classes (or near-classes)

Overmind of Warcraft?

The Lich King's Armor

Any Power?

Will we fight him? If so, who will help?

How much has the new Lich King done exactly?

Wikia

Talk:Lich King

From WoWWiki

Contents

Changes

The Lich Kings weakening.

Lich King triumphant Mini-Merge

What exactly happened to Kel'Thuzad?

Lich king in Naxx

"godhood"

Revised

Godhood Reintroduced

Godlike?

infobox title

The Lich King in World of Warcraft

Accuracy

Class Levels and Abilities

Lich King Arthas classes (or near-classes)

Overmind of Warcraft?

The Lich King's Armor

Any Power?

Will we fight him? If so, who will help?

How much has the new Lich King *done* exactly?

How much has the new Lich King done exactly?