Talk:Light

No churches?

What? The Church of the Holy Light has no churches?

-I don't think it was ever stated explicitly that they flat out don't go to church, so I removed that. I know it's more involved in practice than worship though, and the churches are kind of like libraries. -Kinst 22:01, 13 Nov 2005 (EST)

Dosen't Make Sense

Out of curosity, how can the Allaince Paladins, who follow and worship the Holy Light, use said powers against mambers of the Scarlet Crusade who also weild such power? I mean, sure, it may be a gameplay quirk but, there's also the fact both the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade want to kill the Forsaken, yet the Forsaken preists are also capable of useing the holy light. Has the Holy Light changed from a benevolent being, as it was implied to be in earlier titles, to nothing more then a power that can be tapped, like arcane? Hordesupporter 20:34, 26 January 2007 (EST)

Forsaken priests worship the Shadow. Their healing ability comes from knowledge. Troll priest abilities comes from tradition and ancestors (check the low level priest quests). As for Scarlet Crusade, they don't go against the Alliance or Argent Dawn, they have emissaries in a few Alliance towns and Light's Hope Chapel. They are just mislead and go around nab nonbelievers who venture into their territories. --Voidvector 21:49, 26 January 2007 (EST)

According to lore in a short story in HPG, and other articles in the same book, Forsaken are not capable of using the Holy Light, being undead. Instead, many have twisted what they originally knew into a belief known as the Forgotten Shadow. Forsaken's ability to use "light" based spells in game is merely a game mechanic, to make priests from various races equal for the most part (except for the racial spells).Baggins 12:21, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Someone said the Scarlet Crusade dudes nab non beleivers. I thought they were posessed by demons so thats why theyre crazy. Or is that just the SM dudes? (Mr.X8 20:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC))

No, no, no. They are basically fine, just mislead. The only one who is "possessed" is the main leader, who is actully Balnazzar. Acjpb 00:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

So, how did "it all start"?

Has it actually been explained how the people of Azeroth started to rever the Holy Light? To my knowledge, no. I personally belive that the Naaru (although without actually explaining what the Naaru are) appeared in visions to one person in Azeroth (think about Moses). This person became the first follower of the Light in Azeroth, who in turn started to spread what the Naaru had told him/her; the word of the Holy Light. Of course, this is just my humble theory :S. Regards, --Theron the Just 01:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good theory. It highly influences changes to my theory. I believe that a god-like being, possibily a titan, came to someone lke Alonsus Faol, and he spread the word. I think this person might've freed the humans out of tyranny or guide them. And I think the naaru are like angels that helped him achieve the word of the god. This could explain the old thinking of the light as a God. I hope, for the sake of my theory, that the god reappears to the church so it can rekindle it's old ideas. Acjpb 17:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Refernce To Real World

From What I gather, the Holy Light's organization is very similar to the Catholic and Orthodox churches. You know, the cathedral, bishops and archbishops. The Scarlet Crusade, the abbeys. The sybmol of the light which look like a stick with a two half circles on it is very similar to a crusifix. Can anyone point out more references? Acjpb 00:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

the organization of the church resembles the Catholic Church but the teachings heavily resemble Judaism User:Dunnsworth

It is true, their philosophy is very similar to Judaism or perhaps Buddhism but the Cathedral of Light has nearly all of the liturgical elements such as an altar and the cathedral design used by the present day Roman Catholic Church and perhaps the Anglican/Episcopalian Church as well. But as seen in Eastern Plague Lands, the Scarlet Basilica also is this same design and the Catholic Church is the only faith that still uses Basilicas. Other areas also resemble this particular architecture such as the chapels and the Scarlet Cathedral in SM. --Mellar (talk) 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Three Virtues

Three virtues are part of the Church of Holy Light, not holy light in general. Holy light belief system for the draenei is a bit different. Also there is no reason to have redundant information in more than one article. In anycase you can go to any article that discusses the three virtues and is always about the discussion of the culture of "Church of Holy Light" as far as I know, human, dwarves and high elf organizationTemplate:Cite, at least in World of Warcraft RPG and up.

It predates any knowledge of the drainei interpretations of the holy light. Its misleading to think that Azeroth cultural beliefs apply exactly the same to the draenei belief systems as established in the The Burning Crusade. That info fits better under more specific banner of the Church of the Holy Light. Infact the Alliance Player's Guide and Horde Player's Guide specifically states the three virtues are part of the Church of Light belief system.Baggins 23:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Which might be the reason for my mentioning of the "as revered by the Azerothian worshippers"-part, in case you didn't notice it before reversing the edit. Also note that no Draenei ever talks about the Holy Light, they simply talk about the Light. The Holy Light seems to be the name for the human Light-based philosophy.

Also, when someone wants to look up the "Three Virtues of the Holy Light", in my opinion it would be logical to look in the Holy Light article first. But maybe my logic indeed is flawed, as you already implied in the Scarlet Crusade discussion.

Whatever. But just go ahead. Apparently it's your wiki, and I've gotten somewhat tired of my contributions constantly and unrespectfully being reversed or deleted by you without even the slightest attempt to discuss things first. --Tulon 19:45, 22 November 2007

Actually humans call it the "light" too, perhaps a move to just "light"? As for discussion what do you think this is? Also don't take it personal, when I moved things around it had nothing to do with you, it was just a clean up to merge certain details that fit better in another article then it did this one. Church of Light and Cult of the Forgotten Shadow mirror each other, and therefore the articles fit better mirroring each other as well.Baggins 19:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Tulon, please don't mistake people editing similar articles being the same as tracking that person's edits. In any case, as for the article title, yes, it could make sense to move this to "Light" if that is the more general term. Kirkburn  talk  contr 20:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Blood elves

This article needs a bit more info on the blood elves belief system kept by their Blood Knight paladins, and priests.Baggins 20:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Does the Light advocate celibacy?

It has been said that the organization of the Holy Light resembles the catholic church. In that church, priests live in celibacy, that is, they foreswear the pleasures of the flesh and the intimacy of a family (hope I phrased that correctly, just meant as a description) to fully serve God and their community. And there are monks and nuns, who also chose celibacy. There are no priestesses, so that is an open difference to the WoW Holy Light.

We also have the paladins, originated in armored priests, for which I take the orders of the crusades as the real-life inspiration. These were warrior monks.

This is, of course, meaningless in the world of Warcraft. But I keep asking myself whether priests and/or paladins are expected to live in celibacy.

Opinions? Knowledge?

If there is any conlusion, the Light page may be extended by "There is no word on celibacy" or "Priests are usually celibates" or whatever.

Dimanche 21:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think celibacy is expected in paladins, because Tirion Fordring had a wife in Of Blood and Honor, along with a child. As for the priests, I'm not sure. This is a good question; I don't care about what it is in the end, but I was always kinda curious which religion it was moddeled after.  ?? Quest Giver Troy Frostwind, High Elf 02:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Star Wars? The Force isn't like the Light

Isn't the Force in Star Wars some kind of tiny animal that makes up everything, and by worshipping (or something) them they work for you? That doesn't sound like the Light at all!--Mannerheim 01:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the force is a thing in everything. It is not an animal, midichlorines or whatever is a chemical used to manipulate it. I do not think people 'worship' it. I have only seen the movies and a better fan could tell you more accurate stuff.--SWM2448 01:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Midi don't manipulate, it was more of something that allowed access to the energy of the universe. So the more mid the stronger someone's connection. Though they are kind of like a reverse mitochondria, :p.Baggins 02:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Elune?

Could Elune be the source of the Light? She is the only definitive "great god(ess)". Yeah, sure, the naaru are practically made of the Light, but could they be her(capital "H"?) messengers? Such as God and the angels in real-world religions? --Archmage Rodyn 1:34, 11 May 2008

I don't believe this is the case, seeing as certain quests and bits of lore refer to the Naaru as 'born at the dawn of :

creation.' It is more likely in fact that Elune is an Old Goddess. That isn't to say though, that she could be a source :of Light, however I do not believe that she is the source of all Light. I'm interested to know what makes you think she is the source of Light. -- Astus the Graven One

The Draenei

I find yet another piece of confusion in the suggestion that the faith of the Holy Light is non-theistic. If you read the conversation between Matis the Cruel (Blood Elf) and the Draenei at Blood Watch, posted in the article about Matis, you see three instances of treating the Light as a person.

1. Velen uses a variant on the courtroom line issued upon the sentence of death: "May the Light [instead of God] have mercy on your soul." 2. Matis refers to the Light as suffering. Perhaps he is referring to M'uru, but why use "the Light" as a synonym for one Naaru? That's a bit bizarre. 3. Vindicator Kuros refers to the Light as "not permitting" Matis to act. Few people react with such moral outrage to someone proposing to violate, say, the law of gravity.

Granted, this is one bit of the game, but it's still there.

Tiraline (talk) 05:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And this isn't a forum. Our RPG expert is away at the moment, so he'll cite this stuff (or not) when he gets back, or someone else will. In the meantime, the only thing I can suggest is the Draenei conception of the Light is different from the native Azerothian conception.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Cross

From what I've been able to gather, that cross-equivalent symbol you see in many places seems to be the symbol representing the Holy Light (like Christianity's cross or Judaism's star of David). Should a picture be added to the article? Xavius, the Satyr Lord 18:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

We have Image:Scarlet Crusade Tabard.jpg, but it has been the subject of some debate.--SWM2448 21:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

So it is agreed that the symbol in question IS the symbol representing the Holy Light? Also, I'm sure I saw it as a grave marker somewhere... Xavius, the Satyr Lord 23:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

[1]

Found it -- Astus the Graven One

The grave markers are everywhere. Sometimes pages just do not get updated per discussions... --SWM2448 03:36, June 6, 2010 (UTC)