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Initial discussionEdit

Heres my proof

1.Only a small minority in the forsaken believe in the light(a warped version too) the rest of the horde either doesn't care about the light(orcs,tauren,trolls) or abhor(forsaken and blood elves) it.

2.Orcs almost wiped out their favorite subjects the draenei,the Draenei still hold the grudge and I doubt the Naaru really care whether the orcs where tricked into doing its still not something one can forgive and forget about. Also Both Azeroths and outlands blood elves harass the Draenei

3.They probably heard stories of horde cruelty from the humans and Draenei.

4.Blood elves are tainted with demon energy,orcs still have their green skin from demonic corruption and the forsaken are undead. Thats 3/4 of the horde,that they wil be disgusted to be in the same room with. They can probably smell the intense amounts of corruption on the forsaken and blood elves and the smaller amount on orcs. Drsyc said if it wasn't for balance issues Blood knights would be kos in shattrah.

5.The army of light is the alliance. The horde is not allowed to join,Naaru blatantly ignore horde,they wouldn't give a damn if all orcs died off. Besides the races of the Army of light(the alliance) wouldn't even accept the tauren. Fordragon ordered the death of blightcaller(an old friend of his) for being dead he'd sooner cut tof his hand then shake hands with a forsaken. The horde does not follow the light and fought with the draenei and the alliance,and the naaru in Exodar are not at all friendly to horde. If they did care about horde races,then they would have told the draenei not to fight the horde instead they seem to encourage as evidenced by the fact that Naaru in Exodar are hostile to horde.

6.The naaru in Exodar attack horde players.. This is not balance,they could have the naaru in exodar friendly to all players.

7.Blood elves tortured a Naaru and stole its powers.

Course none of you noticed this since only like 3 or 4 people here play horde. Lets face it,Naaru wouldn't give a damn if Thrall and all the orcs were killed by the draenei,they wouldn't care if the Centaur wiped out the tauren they wouldn't mourn them,if all trolls were killed by wild boars they wouldn't blink,and they might even be glad at the complete destruction of the forsaken and blood elves. All the horde is to them is just a bunch of people they don't actually like who do occasional favors for them in exchange for a tip. Angry ogre

Then how do you explain the fact that neither the Scryers nor Horde players are vaporized upon entering Shattrath CIty? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:14, 9 February 2007 (EST)

The scryeys are probably only there so when they turn into demons due to the demonic energy they put in themselves. They'll be surrounded by Naaru and the aldor. The Naaru almost certainly support the aldor. And I never said the Naaru hated horde ,I just said they don't care about them or their lives,they'll accept a favors from horde,get them into them to do for their work for them,even give them a tip. But they don't care horde. If no one has any good reasons against it,this should be on the rumor page Angry ogre

What rumor page?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:00, 9 February 2007 (EST)

I'm saying we should add a section on that says Naaru don't seem to care about the horde especially since no one has provided a good counter argument against it Angry ogre

Angelic beings believe in redemption, naaru have no problem with shamans, and you seem to have forgotten that everybody in Exodar is hostile to the Horde because it is an Alliance capital and any Horde incursion there is stopped- all NPCs are programmed, regardless of lore. I notice that everything you've listed is a observation, and it not backed up by the comments of any naaru or sha'tar NPC.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:40, 9 February 2007 (EST)

Angelic smelic,Naaru know there is no chance of redeemption for demons,and they showed no real care for horde besides having them kill stuff for them.When did I say they had a problem with shamans(unrelated but it really shows blizzard favoring the alliance when they get true shamans but we get stuck mockladins). Actually some of the goblins in orgimmar are friendly to the alliance and don't attack them,they could easily have made the naaru in exodar non fightable like children or some of the goblins in ogrimmmar. Naaru have shown blatant alliance favortism and neglected the horde. Theres no Naaru protecting any horde cities,they only gave the draenei the power of the light,O'ros encourages Draenei to fight the horde to the point of even attacking them himself,and their paladin followers wish to destory the forsaken. There's even a possibility they'll turn on the horde after the burning legion and scrouge are finished. Stop denying the truth. Naaru don't care about green people. Angry ogre

Until you can quote me a naaru who says, "I love the Alliance and I don't care about the Horde at all," you aren't putting that POV trash into an article. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:14, 10 February 2007 (EST)
Was going to provide a counter argument to the above ogre comment, but the Head Bookkeeper hath spoken. Smiley // Montagg (talk · contr) 00:16, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Actions speak louder then words. For example,you don't need to hear Sargeras say he's evil to know hes evil. The actions of the naaru say that they adore the alliance and don't care about the horde. If they loved both sides equally,then O'ros wouldn't attack horde,there would a naaru guarding a horde city,a horde would given the power of the light,they would tell their paladins not to attack forsaken. See Naaru don't do that. This tells you more then simple words could ever do. Angry ogre

Depends. If a member of Metzen's lore team disagreed with you, then their words would speak louder than those actions (or lack thereof). Not that this is likely to happen, as I find remarkably few people who have this interpretation. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:36, 10 February 2007 (EST)

So this seems to this be added being added to the page(under a new section entitled rumors). Angry ogre

Over my dead body. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:46, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Provide a good reason. Frankly I think I encounter such opposition to this because 1.Few people here play horde or care about its lore 2.The few people who playh horde are denying because because they still want to believe that Horde is still noble. 3.People don't want believe Metzen lost his touch Face it Horde was basically given a huge middle finger in world of warcraft. Besides I still haven't gotten a good reason why this shouldn't be in the page. Angry ogre

Because it is an opinion. An opinion based on what may be facts, but an opinion nonetheless. This does not even count as speculation or rumor; it is POV, plain and simple, and POV is not allowed in articles. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:53, 10 February 2007 (EST)

The rumuor about blood knights is more POV then rumour and thats still in the page. Angry ogre

That's hardly a solid argument. There are plenty of things you could say about something with the absence of obvious statements. Kiljaeden, for example, is most likely not gay, even though I've never seen him romantically involved within the game's plot. The point is not that your argument is impossible, only that it is not strong enough (or in the absense of strength, widely supported) to warrent inclusion. (As a side note, I am a rabid Horde player.) // Montagg (talk · contr) 00:54, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Point 1, new comments go at the end of a page. You KNOW this. Point 2, how is this a rumor exactly? Currently it's just a biased selection of opinions. Other things to point out - there's only one naaru in Exodar. You're making up 'facts' that aren't supported ingame (well duh, the horde are specifically helped by the naaru aren't they). All you've proven is that some members of the horde have either directly or indirectly harmed one or more naaru. How you've leapt to the conclusion that this is reciprocated is utterly and completely beyond me. Note this was written earlier, but you lot write too fast!  Kirkburn talk contr 00:57, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Of course Kil'jadens not gay, its a known that he never could love and no one can love him. And it not a opinion due to the facts that I stated above. And where did I say there was more then one naaru in exodar? Keep in note that naaru never directly help horde,just accept help from them in combating the burning legion. At the very least they greatly favor the alliance over the horde. It seems like most of you are only opposing this due to contempt for me. For instance Ragestorm and kirkburn both argued against the fact that blood elves were evil despite the fact that they both said previously that the blood elves were evil. Angry ogre(EST) 02:47, 10 February 2007

roflyness. Angry Ogre, your name fits you well ;) You're highly biased, and making things up based on actions of single characters, that are not even fully percieved as hatred or a lack of care, only your biased assumptions of them. You opinions have no solid support, so there is no argument to put up against them. You've shown your biased opinions in full colour often and your ability to make up unfounded claims on several occasions, but there's no way those claims should be on the wiki as ragestorm as pointed out, until you find some real support and stop just coming up with biased observations. --Zealtalkcontrweb 20:26, 10 February 2007 (EST)
I'd like to find out exactly how Angry ogre got the opinions of all the personnel at Blizzard, as he implied.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:17, 10 February 2007 (EST)
Ogre: Please organize your comments, or do not post. It's getting to the point where it's not helping this article anymore. From this point on, I will begin removing your comments from this talk page if they are not constructive. // Montagg (talk · contr) 21:58, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Discussions on horde being screwed up have been moved to Talk:Horde. Anyway back to the Naaru not caring about horde. Angry ogre 02:32, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Actually, I have to wonder if, other than the Dranei,whom they have a history with, they care anymore for the Alliance than they do for the Horde. I would imagine that they would be above the petty politics of Alliance V. Horde. They are looking for help to fight the legion. That is why both Horde Players and Alliance Players are more than welcome to take assignments from them. Judging by their character, they would probably be impressed with the idealism and reforms that Thrall has introduced and I doubt they'd have any problems with Tauren. The other Races are a bit more shifty, but they've already taken a group of Blood Elves under their wing, and neither Forsaken players or Trolls have been unable gain reputation to the point where the Naaru of the Shat'tar don't revere or exalt them on grounds of race. They are benevolent, which would probably mean they are not racist, nor would they be prone to such idiotic logical fallacies as stereotypes other generalizations. Meneldir

I suppose my original post on this discussion page should have been posted under this header because it was in direct response to Angry Ogre's statement about the Horde and all that mess, but I'd like to add... of all the Horde (besides the Tauren), the orcs are not evil. They never were. They were peaceful, shamanistic while on Draenor when the Draenei first settled there, and the two traded with one another. The orcs were duped by Kil'jaeden, which face it, if you're going to point fingers... what race HASN'T fallen for the Burning Legion's promises? There are even bad Tauren... *gasp*, I know, it's hard to believe! But when some of them were smart enough to realize the mistakes they made... like Durotan, and Orgrim Doomhammer, that logic of orc evildom was completely lost. And now, as I said before, the demonic taint was removed from them by Grom's sacrifice, so just because they're still green does not mean they're EEEEEBIL. And the second thing I'd like to clear up, with hard facts instead of my own opinions and hopes, is that O'ros, the Naaru you spoke of in Exodar... the ONLY Naaru in Exodar... is not hostile to Horde, and cannot be attacked at all. So what was that about the Naaru not 'giving a damn' about the Horde? They apparantly give a damn enough to not slaughter them with their 300K+ mana worth of spells, or to not come to Prophet Velen's aid when Horde come to take him out. :) Lilyth 03:13, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

Angry Ogre, what about the Naaru in Outland that accepted the Scryers, A'dal? Saimdusan 07:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Just thought I'd throw out that a major Horde quest in Nagrand, the one where Thrall comes to Outland, features trying to help the Orc ancestors of Nagrand find peace. In this quest line, not one, not two, but THREE Naaru help (directly or indirectly) Horde characters in solving their problem. So no. Naaru in fact do give a damn about Horde. --Mikaka 08:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Also: response to 'Naaru in exodar'. Well, guess what. Goblins in Orgrimmar who are technically NEUTRAL are horde faction rather than Steemwheedle faction, and thus attack Alliance players. Pwnt. Saimdusan 22:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything the angry ogre sayd and i think he has a very good point there.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diablo0153 (talk · contr).

Horde and Naaru (follow-up, several months later)Edit

I don't want an epic argument here, I don't want an admin to close this discussion out of disgust, and I don't want angry ogre anywhere near this discussion but their are a few things I feel I should point out.

1. Some people have come to the conclusion that the blood elves have enslaved M'uru, i've brought a blood elf paladin to level 26 (as of writing) and none of the quests that involve M'uru imply that he is a slave, rather I believe he is meant to be a prisioner.

2. Some people believe that the blood elves torture M'uru, their is no random npc who attacks M'uru for no reason at a regular scedule, M'uru is not abused, M'uru is not beaten, the only things the blood elves have done to M'uru is keep him in silvermoon against his will, and use him to channel the power of the light into the blood knights.

3. angry ogre started a discussion (on this page, no less) that the Naaru don't care about the horde, however, their are a number of horde specific quests that involve Naaru, these quests (excluding the quests that involve M'uru) show the Naaru to be rather polite and caring to the horde, in the quest line that ends with Thrall meeting his grandmother, their is a quest to find a naaru to solve some trouble with orc spirits, when you find the Naaru he seems regretful and apologetic over the pain he brought to the orc's ancestors. Hordesupporter 23:34, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Yay, sensible points :) Regarding 1 and 2, we don't really know either way. To get the full picture I guess we'd have to ask the naaru, which isn't happening. As you say, there's no hard evidence of the 'real' relatonship. Though I have not played a hordie in Outland, from what I have found out, what you say in point 3 is accurate. Kirkburn talk contr 00:38, 11 March 2007 (EST)
My Belfadin is 67, and doing the horde epic pally mount quest requires you to fetch a heap of arcanite, sungrass, and runecloth. While the quest said I had to fetch them because the naaru had apparently tried to break free from it's bonds, or some equipment was damaged by some people who disliked the creature being there, nowhere did it say they had to expend extra energy to keep it, and there seems to be a total lack of any kind of arcane looking objects restraining M'uru. (My initial request for some sungrass from a guildmate was "A magister was hallucinating and broke his smoking device and burned several cushions. He requires some arcanite to fix it, and runecloth to sew new cushions with, and the sungrass to... well, I'll leave it to your imagination")
And I'm pretty sure the Naaru do care about the horde, just some elements in it they may disagree with. But you don't see them disliking the assistance of a blood knight that tries to fix the wrongs in nagrand, though. Hemical 09:11, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

How the naaru view the blood elves, and more importanly, the blood knights, I do not know, although I presume that their relationshio is... less then pleseant. Hordesupporter 01:02, 11 March 2007 (EST)

Well, it all comes down to how the Horde and blood elves are treated by the Sha'tar. This is a piece of evidence towards the "M'uru is a martyr" theory- if he's working A'dal's plan, then the Naaru have no quarrel with the Blood Knights. Of course, "martyr" is completely the wrong word in any case. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:57, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

The main thing i'm curious about is... do the naaru really allow blood knights into shattrath city, or is it just a gameplay mechanic? Hordesupporter 15:19, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Well, Hemik, my belfadin, has had his hearth set in Shattrath since he was level 20ish. Only place I couldn't go was aldor rise, but that's because the aldor don't really like blood elves much. Probably because they look like those filthy Scryers on the tier below them. And they tend to kick you out with a vengeance if you cause a ruckus (like killing the level 19 Aldor NPCs at the bottom of the aldor lift). So yeah, it's probably a gameplay mechanic, but who knows. Hemical 09:11, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Anyway, the main point I was making with points 1. and 2. is that we have no prove that slavery and torture is taking place, as for the relationship between the Naaru and the blood knights, well... even if the Naaru believe the blood knights could turn more benevolent due to M'uru's energy, they probably aren't too fond of the fact they (the blood elves) can use M'uru in such a way with peace of mind. Hordesupporter 22:28, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Um... Hemical, attacking the members of a faction will make nearby members react hostially towards you, it works that way with the magram and gelkis tribes in desolence, although they initially won't attack you, if they see you attacking their buddies they'll aggro you. Hordesupporter 20:46, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Um just asking but couldnt it be that the blood knights are allowed in shattrath in the hope that they will see the folly in defiling the light ways and attempt to gain the its holy strength through proper and faith-based ways? - Anuragsahay 17:45, 10 April 2007 (IST)

And the righteous of all factions shall be saved. That's the most plausible thing I've heard all day. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:15, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

I've been an avid Horde player since game release, and I completely disagree with anyone who dares say the races of the Horde are evil and beyond redemption. In that respect it sounds more like you wish them to be evil simply because it's "cooler than being good". Take a walk down memory lane, say, 10,000 years ago. Who helped defeat the Legion? Tauren. Jump forward to about 5 or 6 years ago. Who helped defeat the Legion? The Horde. In fact I watched two brave orcs slaughter one of Sargeras' main lieutenants, and I watched as they aided the Night Elves in staving off the waves of demons long enough to defeat Archimonde, yet another of Sargeras' main lieutenants. The orcs of Azeroth hate NOTHING more than demons. Grom's death saw to it that the orcs of Azeroth are free of demonic taint, except those that want to be tainted like the Searing Blade and other small uprisings of weak orcs. It's only been 5 damn years since that happened... and a lot of orc babies have been made since the orcs ventured onto Azeroth, so to think that their skin should immediately revert back to being brown like the untainted orcs is just silly. It is most likely something that is inherent within them now and won't be changing anytime soon. Also, to say that all Forsaken are evil is also just silly. Nothing has been proven one way or the other the true intentions of the Forsaken. No one can currently prove whether the Forsaken are searching for a cure for their illness or a plague to make all races Forsaken. They were former humans, for one, and by your definition that all Horde are evil, and Naaru work with the Alliance which must make them good (even though it has always been the Alliance races that directed the demon's attention to Azeroth), then Forsaken are also good. And I seem to remember the plague having been started by demons, so if Forsaken are pissed off about having been taken by the plague, which is what drives them to kill Scourge on sight, then they most likely are intelligent enough to know that they also must hate and combat that which started it all... the Burning Legion. Also, the Blood Elves were very recently High Elves, which were and still are allied with the "good" Alliance. They are not evil, they are imbittered because 1) Their city and lands were destroyed and defiled and many of their people were lost, and 2) Their source of magical energy was all but destroyed, which, if you take an addict's drugs away from them... are they not unfriendly to be around? It doesn't make them evil... it just means the withdrawals will drive them to unnatural behavior. Kael'thas is not to blame for the evil of many Blood Elves. His intentions were noble. He just wanted to bring magic back to his people, because face it, Quel'dorei without something to quench their magical addiction... they're just useless. Power-hungry Illidan made Kael'thas work with him under the promise that he'd give magic back to the Sin'dorei. It wasn't until much later that Illidan actually told Kael'thas the methods in which to get back that magic. Being the kind prince he is, looking out for what he thinks is best for his people, he has not revolted against the idea of sucking magic out of other beings. But many other elves have. Scryers, for example? Those people, you know, living in Shattrath, who never hated the Aldor initially. The Aldor hated -them-. The Aldor are prideful and try to best the Scryers and gain the favor of the Naaru. The Scryers want the Naaru favor as well. Why would evil beings seek the favor of the Naaru? The Naaru goal is simple. To gather an unstoppable "army of the light" to oppose the Legion. They don't give a shite who you are or what your ideals are... so long as you hate the Legion, you're in. It's the same reason why the Alliance worked with the Horde. Common enemy. Horde is not evil. They're just brutish and misunderstood. -- Lilythmageborn 17:33, 19 April 2007 (EST)

Only a handul of people say that the Horde is evil. Yes, there are in fact some people that beieve putting the Blood Elves in the Horde ruined it, however if you look deeper having the Blood Elves in the Horde is not so much of a stretch, the main thing that I want to know is, why exactly did the darkspear tribe allow the blood elves in, i'm sure they were venomesly opposed to the idea, although they are seemingly fine in the presence of the Blood Elves. Hordesupporter 19:12, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

There are quite a few explanations behind this. First of all, it can be argued that island trolls don't have a feud with the blood elves (only forest trolls do?). Even if they did dislike one another, since they're on separate continents, few Darkspear trolls (note: not Darkspear troll players) actually ever need to meet blood elves outside the battlefield story-wise. From a political perspective, the trolls would simply follow the Warchief's commands as they are loyal to Thrall. Sure, they wouldn't be the ones begging them to join but you must remember that the blood elves were offered a place in the Horde through the support of Sylvanas. Mr. peasant 22:00, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

All Trolls hate all Elves, i'm gonna assume the reason the darkspear tribe allowed the BEs in was because Thrall allowed it. Hordesupporter 22:10, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

furthermore, I was never reffering to the Troll players, I was reffering to Troll npc's. Hordesupporter 13:54, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

My notation regarding Troll players was not aimed at anyone in particular but rather to prevent any misunderstanding as Troll players will probably have to travel to Silvermoon at one point or other. Mr. peasant 17:18, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Jungle trolls = Hate night elves Forest trolls = Hate high, blood and night elves

It all goes back to the original fued between kaldori and trolls. That's why both of them hate night elves. Then, there's the forest troll's feud with high elves (troll wars). That's why they hate high/blood elves. Thus, jungle trolls have no reason to hate blood elves (well, at least not the Darkspear ones, the Stranglethorn ones hate everyone).

Saimdusan 22:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

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