Talk:Netherspite

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Contents 1 Beam Stacking 2 Proposed Strategy version b.1 3 unclear part of strategy 4 2.1.0 revisions 5 netherbreath / netherburn 6 Tested 7 Blue Beam 8 Netherspite Breath as of patch 2.1.2 9 Alternate Beam Notes 10 Demon? 11 Lore? 12 August 14, 2007 Update 13 Strategy with one person in red beam for full phase 14 Word of Warning for 2.3 15 Regarding the green beam... 16 Netherbreath is avoidable 17 Factual correction 18 Threatwipe when entering banish phase? 19 Corrections

Beam Stacking

Question: -All beam effects can stack up quickly up to 99 times. And the effect stay for how many time ?

Answer: Effect stays for 7-8 seconds after exiting the beam, depending on when you exit the beam.

From our experience (gotten yesterday), the buffs stay on the player for 20s, not 8 (Spotzel)

-from Sideburnz-

Green Beam - It wasnt clear to me that it also reduces the cost of rogue abilitys

Proposed Strategy version b.1

If anyone understands this proposal, could they clarify the table please? Does each column represent a beam? (In which case, no-one's in beam 3 before the first banish phase??) What do 1/2/3 and X mean as entries within the columns? --Mattlistener 17:18, 19 June 2007 (ET)

I have only done this fight 3-4 times, all unsuccessfully, but after discussing our experiences and reading up on the documented abilities, here is what we'll probably be trying next time. I propose this as strategy 1. Unfortunately, I'll be on vacation for my guild's next attempt. I humbly submit this to you all, please let me know how it looks.

y axis is listed in chronological order of 30 second periods. 
x axis is tank/dps/heal, numbered 1/2/3.
T stands for time out, because the debuff lasts 90 seconds after you leave a stream. 

Every third period is a "banish" period where there are no portals, and thus it serves as a spare 30 seconds to cool off. I suggest that people stand basically near the middle during banishes, because you only have 10 seconds to shift to a new portal, and all you'd need to do is "walk the line" up towards the portal, if you're standing in the middle.

This assumes that we have one hybrid class left over that can fill any role, but most especially the tank role. Their sole job is to fill in for someone who either dies or is caught in a void circle while holding the stream. Note: you should still be able to walk forward or backwards along the line to avoid the void spots, so this is only an emergency plan.

---1--2--3-

1|-1-------

2|-T--2----

3|-T--T--X-(banish phase)

4|-T--T--3-

5|-1--T--T-

6|-T--X--T-(banish phase)

7|-T--2--T-

8|-T--T--3-

9|-X--T--T-(banish phase)

1|-1--T--T- //rinse and repeat here, as the pattern repeats from start.

2|-T--2--T-

3|-T--T--X-(banish phase)

4|-T--T--3-

5|-1--T--T-

6|-T--X--T-(banish phase)

7|-T--2--T-

8|-T--T--3-

9|-X--T--T-(banish phase)

To be a little more concise, here's the order, excluding the banish phase periods:

1 then 2

3 then 1

2 then 3

repeat ad nauseum.

-end sideburnz-

unclear part of strategy

"Once the buff has been applied, take a small step to the left or right (roughly 3-5 yards) so that the beam jumps off of the tank onto Netherspite. Let the beam stack 2-3 times on him and then promptly resume your position in front of it. What this does is keep the health buff on yourself while also making sure that Netherspite takes damage during phase one, you don't want the buff on him getting higher than 4-6 stacks"

What exactly is the idea with that line? why does the red beam have to hit netherspite ?  - CJ talk / cont  07:17, 23 April 2007 (EDT)

For ease lets say your tank has 15k health coming into the encounter. After 45 stacks of the beam, he has a max health of 0. Therefore, in order to use only one tank per rotation, the tank has to control how many stacks he takes in order to never let his max health drop too low.

That part was obvious, but im thinking this part is unclear "while also making sure that Netherspite takes damage during phase one", why would netherspite need the buff in order to take damage? the buff "decreases" damage..  - CJ talk / cont  03:54, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

I think the idea is that doing 'on and off' is preferable to letting him get the beam for a long period of time (e.g. the tank gets to 30 stacks quickly, and then steps out), since that keeps Netherspite's anti-damage-taken debuff stack up more slowly and thus allow more damage to be done. Elfchief 22:57, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I am still confused here. It says earlier that a full phase of buffing is circa a stack of 50. It also says here that "If all goes well, by the time Netherspite banishes himself he will never have gotten more than 6 stacks of the buff at a time and the tank will have no more than 30 stacks of the buff as well." - in other words a total stack of 36. That's a big difference. Is there something to gain in the timing, i.e. it takes a while from the beam hits till it starts buffing? If that is so then the desired behaviour is to shift back and forth all the way through the phase, for that reason. If it is not the case it can be more easily done by taking 30 buffs and then move out to let Netherspite get the rest, be it 6 or 20. Please enlighten us. --Dreamshine 13:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

This would make sense if the buff on Netherspite times out after enough time out of the beam. 30+6+6+6=48, is that close to an accounting of a successful red beam phase? --Mattlistener 16:37, 19 June 2007 (ET)

It appears from the above discussion that this sentence should be edited for clarity: "What this does is keep the health buff on yourself while also making sure that Netherspite takes damage during phase one...". "This", referring to stepping out of the red beam, has no benefit related to making sure Netherspite takes damage. Instead, if I understand correctly, it should say something like "Since a certain number of ticks have to land on Netherspite to prevent 45 ticks from zeroing out the tank's health, it is better to allow those ticks to land early in the phase, so that the tank spends more of the time above max health." I'd prefer someone with more experience with the fight to decide they agree with me and make the edit. --Mattlistener 16:37, 19 June 2007 (ET)

How long is a tick, and how many beam buffs would stack if you stayed in the beam for the entire 60 seconds of the portal phase? Thoth 17:39, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe a tick is one second, I have around 50 or so when I finish my beam rotation (I rarely glance at it at the last second, too busy trying to stack dots.) Stillfresh 14:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

2.1.0 revisions

Going to revise this when 2.1.0 goes live, it looks like the addition of a door will make the LoS strategy impossible. -Stillfresh

Done, removed a lot of duplicative information. Stillfresh 21:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

netherbreath / netherburn

has anyone tested the range of these abilities?

thott seems to list ~40 yards...  - CJ talk / cont  05:04, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

Tested

As of last night (July 16th) in my guild I found (using the wonders of Thottbot, see http://www.thottbot.com/s38524) that Netherbreath only has a range of 30 yards, thus making him DPSable during banish phase by way of using 31+ yard ranged dps spells. However, please note that IF he targets off of someone within 30 yards, he will begin casting and hit EVERYONE inside the normal cone radius REGARDLESS of range.

We found that if we placed a tank on the opposite side of the dps/healer group with 1 healer on him, we could keep him building aggro so the ranged dps wouldn't grab Netherspite during the 5 seconds between banish and portal phase. Since Netherspite would try to randomly target out of ranged people he would usually be a sitting duck long enough to put the tank in place in his side without jeopardizing the casters. I'm going to edit this in, if you have a problem go test it yourself. :P

Veleon 16:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious to investigate this, now. Have you actually been able to position your entire raid 30 yards away from Netherspite, while those capable of DPSing continued, and Netherspite remained there, doing nothing? I know players tend to hide behind the windows, despite patch 2.1.0 stating that LoS will not affect Netherbreath from Netherspite, but it tends to function in our favor, so the range is a likely variable, rather than the window's LoS. I have been hit before, while hiding in a window, but it is likely, as you state, that a warrior in range was the cause of it. In addition, would placing your entire raid 30 yards away and continuing to DPS work? I've noticed that sometimes Netherspite moves during his Banish Phase or Crazed Phase, even chasing people and meleeing them. --Furi

Blue Beam

fixed a typo on the blue beam description, it only affects spell damage

Netherspite Breath as of patch 2.1.2

Average damage 4489 max damage 5291 (4500 - 5300).

Backup evidence: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ewoixb1abvvhy&ab=431

Alternate Beam Notes

• Green beam reduces the cost of all abilities, including rogues, warriors, and druids. This is handy for the off-tank to be able to do some dps while not in the red beam.
• The Green beam MASSIVELY increases mana regen with a couple ticks. About halfway through the fight, a healer can grab it in the beginning of a phase to steal it for a few ticks before turning it over to the normal green beam tank. (Make sure you don't steal it once the normal green beam tank already has it, since they will then have the debuff and not be able to get it back).
• There's no reason for the red beam to ever hit Netherspite. Most tanks can take the red beam except for the last 10 seconds, and once they step out, a pally or rogue can easily step into it and take it for the 8-12 seconds necessary. Their HP will be jumped up to 41k+, and while Netherspite *might* crit them for up to 20k (rogue), or 10k (pally), the red beam heals you to full every tick, so they'll easily survive 10 seconds in the red beam, and then Netherspite has no buffs in banish phase. The added 5-10% dps you get from this can shorten the fight pretty well.

Demon?

How come Netherspite is classed as Demon instead of Dragonkin? He's clearly a dragon to me at least. --Odolwa 10:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... unsure, it was that way when I came upon the article. Is that perhaps his class when you mouse-over his icon, even though he appears to be a dragon? Stillfresh 13:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ehum, I think you misunderstand my question. Yes, he is classed in-game as Demon, and I wonder why that is, since it would be more logical for him to be Dragonkin, like all the other Nether Dragons. --Odolwa 01:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps he's extra-dimensional, and thus a demon? His portals seem to indicate that he's actually from some nether realm, and is using them to support his existence here. That's my speculation, at least. Stillfresh 02:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

In my last Karazhan-visit, I saw that Netherspite is now classed as a Dragonkin, as he should be. Great!--Odolwa 12:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Lore?

Any idea as to why this guy is inside Kara? Is there a reason for him to be there beyond the easy purples? Briskman3000 15:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

August 14, 2007 Update

I took the liberty to go ahead and updated the strategy part which also includes a proposed beam assignment for a raid, as this has always been lacking in the article. I'm aware that some guilds use three-shift-rotation strategies and others like to use healers to block the green beam, but in my experience, the version I've posted is the best for raids new to Nethergroll. A four-shift-rotation with tanks also blocking the green beams has, in my opinion, the advantage that only two players need to concentrate on the job of getting into the right position for the most critical beams (red and green) at the start of a portal phase. They will be faster in becoming more skilled at this exercise than having three, four or even up to six different players in your raid being responsible for that job. Rondaru 14:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Page had been intentionally abbreviated from the long version to the previous short version. However, unless people complain about it being too long again, I'm just going to leave it as Rondaru changed it per this comment. I think it's way, way over-explained, but I hate to remove what is essentially accurate information. Stillfresh 21:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is a dilemma with Netherspite. He is a very complex encounter with a lot of "don't do this or we're all going to die!"-facts people in a raid either should know beforehand or have to find out themselves the hard way. But I accept the constructive criticism and will see if I can't shorten it a little bit in the next couple or hours or days. (UPDATE: Okay, here goes a somewhat leaner version. I also took the liberty to remove the resistance advice in the Banish phase. The usefulness of Resistance Gear should be rather obious in boss fights and I thought "completely negates" is mis-leading as resistance can never reach 100%. Also moved out additional-but-not-vital suggestions to a final section. Makes it more readable an easier for others to add more ideas without having to restructure the whole Strategy part again.)Rondaru 11:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That looks pretty good. Stillfresh 18:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Strategy with one person in red beam for full phase

The page is currently very nice but I do not understand why the strategy with a tank taking the red beam for a full phase has been removed? We use it a lot because we do not have many melee and they are already in the green beam most of the time.

The idea is the following: - red beam: one tank takes is for a full phase, dancing (strafing) in and out of it. A good tank can have a stack of up to 30-35 debuffs on him without problem, he will end up with about -5k max compared to normal health, which is still more than enough (especially with the highly increase defense). The tank should never leave the beam for more than 20s (or he will get the debuff) and should try to stay in the beam for at least 5 consecutive seconds so that Netherspite will lose the buff it got from the red beam when the tank wasn't in it. We have done this multiple times and the tanks never lost aggro on Netherspite even when out of the red beam. All in all the tank will be out of the red beam for 15-20 seconds, if possible in turns of 5 seconds at most. The only important thing to watch is not getting killed while out of the red beam, i.e. stepping in again as soon as health gets too low. - green beam: taken by other tank (or a rogue if available) - blue beam: rotating shadow priest and warlock

(this is assuming the tanks are warriors or feral druids, a paladin cannot go in the green beam)

During the banish phase, the tank who was in the green beam stays on netherspite, building threat and getting ready to grab the red beam. A healer stays back as well to heal him. Everybody else runs to the windows so as to be out of range.

We always do it this way and if the tanks know what they are doing it is a very easy fight.

Anathor 16:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't edited it in a while, but I imagine it was due to an attempt to prevent the entry from becoming an unreadable behemoth. Generally, we like to keep strategy pages a relatively straight-forward guide for the standard group, rather than exploring every possible way to beat a fight. Stillfresh 15:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I always do it with the old listed strategy. The new one presented here looks insanely complicated when it really doesn't need to be. Dance in and out of the beam... easy! :) Choir 00:10, 22 September 2007 (MST)

I suggest taking it up with Rondaru, who revised it last. Stillfresh 20:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

You can dance in and out, if you like - but that means that Netherspite will also receive the red beam's buff and takes less damage from the raid, making the fight longer than it has to be. Furthermore, Netherspite uses his regular aggro table if noone is standing in the red beam, so he might just turn and slay the poor guy in the blue beam. Rondaru 16:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Word of Warning for 2.3

This fight is becoming much harder for warlocks (and groups that use warlocks as beam tanks) in 2.3. The healing debuff will now work on drains, probably making it impossible for a warlock to stay in the beam for an entire phase. Stillfresh 15:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Along similar lines, the article currently says that an affliction warlock can easily surpass the nether burn aura if there are more than 6 affliction dots on the target. I am a demonology warlock and found this to be the case without the soul siphon ability, and was able to dps most of the time in the blue beam with only intermittent drains required. Any warlock should be able hold their own as the blue beam is currently configured with a decent amount of +spell dmg, which would make the 6-dot requirement a bit misleading. In fact, even when the healing debuff applies (patch 2.3), a warlock chain-draining for the entire duration of the portal phase in the blue beam should be able to keep their own health topped off. --Jejunus 16:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about that. As an affliction warlock with 1000 +dmg, I can barely drain through the end of the phase, due to 6000 point aura ticks. The problem is, you have to break at some point to throw the DoTs up there. Stillfresh 18:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah ok, must be the +70 resist all from the felhunter - my ticks were max of 3600 from the aura, and healing ticks were 1300 each, so only a few seconds to refill the damage. --Jejunus 20:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Besides resists (Which would be at 120 SR base for you, with Shadow Prot Buff) you are probably also getting 20% mitigation from your Soul Link. Also, it appears that as of 2.2.2, your resilience may mitigate his aura (Can't verify.) Stillfresh 18:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I (Affliction 'lock without Soul Siphon) was able to sustain the entire blue beam duration tonight, of course with getting thrown heals (although a little under half of my healing [51k as opposed to 41k, the first person under me] was from me). Exor674 08:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the green beam...

1) According to an earlier comment, the green beam reduces the cost of Rogue/Cat Druid abilities as it stacks. Is this true?

2) Does the green beam have any effect on a Rogue/Cat Druid's Energy Pool, as it does the Mana pool (rapidly-lowering maximum)?

3) On the SA forums, a poster had this to say about the so-called "increased regen" of the green beam: "It doesn't increase regen at all; [...] the beam actually decreases your maximum mana pool, so as a percentage your mana may see like it's increasing, but your pool is merely getting smaller." Is it true that regen is actually unchanged, and it only APPEARS to be higher because of the decreasing maximum (and therefore lower time-to-full)?

Ledneh 19:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Self-reply: further replies on the forum confirm the following answers:

1) Yes. Everyone, including those classes without a mana bar (Rogues, Bear/Cat Druids, Warriors), gets the benefit of the reduced ability cost. Which basically means a Rogue in the green beam will have their DPS go from Good to Hilariously Lol for their green beam time, with no ill effects besides the beam exhaustion afterward. However, a Druid in Bear or Cat form will still have their mana bar affected, which will be reflected when they shift out.

2) No, Energy/Rage maxima are unaffected.

3) In reality, mana bars are refilled to full each time their maximum ticks down, similar to the effects of the Red Beam on health. So "increased regen" or lack thereof is completely irrelevant.

That is simply not true. Please get your facts straight. Rondaru 16:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, I've been informed that anyone with a mana bar whose maximum reaches zero will cease to take the green beam immediately (with hilarious results if no one else is in its path, of course). Rogues and Warriors can take the green beam indefinitely; in addition, Druids in Bear or Cat form can also take the green beam indefinitely, even if their (hidden) mana bar is reduced to zero. If they shift out to a zeroed-out mana bar, however, they cease to take the beam like any other mana user.

I'll edit these in.

Ledneh 19:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

To further answer number 3: I believe the "increased regen" isn't really regeneration, either, but is actually just a method of mana conservation. When casting heals, you lose mana, and if you have a deficit of 2000 mana from the maximum, due to healing well, you could essentially hop into the green beam, stacking the buff up, until your mana pool removes that "already removed" 2000 mana. In addition to that, any further healing spells you cast will heal for more health and cost less mana. So, before you lose the buff, you can cast better, more mana conserving heals, and then repeat it, "refilling" the new lost mana and continually boosting your +healing and reducing the mana of your spells. Simply a tricky way to take advantage of the beam's buff without actually staying in it obliterating your mana pool. Comparable to how many tanks hop in and out of the red beam so they do not receive too many buffs, which would become lethal to their life (similar how green is lethal to our mana), except someone is there to hold the beam for us until we would like some more "buff". -- Furi

So how do you explain that players with completely depleted mana pools have jumped into the green beam for five stacks and came out with around 3000 new mana? Certainly not from 'conservation'. The green beam gives you a temporary mana regeneration boost. And that's a fact. Rondaru 16:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's just weird to me that, for the entire lifetime of this article that I've seen, people seem stridently opposed to the act of putting healers in the healing beam. As the owner of multiple healers, each with over 9K mana, I can say from experience that green is a complete power-trip. You cannot run out of mana as long as your maximum supports the overall decline, and the boost to your heals greatly offsets the hurt being put on the blue beam holder (who can also stay in the whole time if the green beam healer is alert). Of course, when Exhaustion sets in, you will be relying on the 5-second rule to recover your mana, but another healer will be ready to pick up your slack.
The best place for a healer to stand, other than in the green beam, is right in the center of the boss. This almost guarantees range on your targets, since they will have to be close enough to hit Netherspite. JIM 11:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The oddest thing for me about reading this stra is that the group I've done KZ with for the past 6-8 months or so has always used a rotation of two healers in the green beem, with a third healer as backup. These are KZ/primal mooncloth/Arena/start of ZA geared healers. The healers all say that they enjoy the extra healing the beam gives them and the mana issues aren't a big problem. I find it very odd that this article has such a strong prohabition on healers in the green beam.--Karpenl 09:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Netherbreath is avoidable

EDIT: This is Falos, the breath now continues tracking the aim setting player through the charge up as of 2.4 =(

I haven't thoroughly tested the claims of infinite, or at least cross-room range of Netherbreath, but it can be said that players against the (right) wall were reached by Netherspite from the center of the room. The max range is at least half the room.

The mechanics of the attack seemed to be lacking in the article, however. He will...

1) Pick a random player

2) Face that player

3) Begin casting Netherbreath

4) NOT change direction from #3

5) Complete cast

6) Launch the projectile at anyone inside the cone at the time of #5

Platformer video games have been doing an attack of this fashion for ages - a long windup that blasts in an determined direction. The visual mechanics of classical Doom's BFG are similar - a giant fan of green projectiles was too much, but the gun actually launched a huge cone of 52(?) invisible shots that trigged once the main blast landed.

Visualize, if it helps, Netherspite rearing back in place during the 2.5sec cast, and spewing out a giant cone of purple, instead of lobbing projectiles at anyone in the cone when the cast completes.

He uses a player to pick his direction, but like cone of cold, it's targetless. Consider Lethon's Shadow Whirl. Simply sidestep the thing, my guild find Netherbreath laughable because they crowd around him, then simply run through him towards his tail when he begins casting. The point is, no one ever really needs to get hit by Netherbreath, unless they're very far away and were aimed at, or lagged. A raid can down Netherspite without anyone getting hit by a single one. --Falos 14:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

We tried to do this once, but gave it up. I think he actually does pick the players he's going to shoot his breath bolts at the time he starts casting - which is also consistent with the way non-instant spells work in the game. So even if they run straight through him, the bolt still hits them while they are standing in his back. Rondaru 17:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, Falos is correct. —Pzychotix (talk · contr) 15:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this still true 2.4? Because I was watching the fight and wow, Netherspite is ROTATING during his casting phase. Is this a graphical glitch, or is he still locking down like he used to? Moleculor 02:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, since 2.4 the player used to set his aim for windup will be followed as he casts. Lame, but what're you gonna do? Checking to see if the strat reflects this, you can try reacting to his target but it's too tight, the best bet is probably to spread out ranged to cut losses, and melee continues to dodge breath hoping they're not the aimed target.

Also, I've noticed melee sometimes not hit for a ranged target that's the same angle, going against the cone theory. Could just be latency or whatever, but not sure yet. --Falos 08:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Factual correction

In the article the following tactic is displayed:

"Warlocks can sustain a full duration of the Blue Beam by keeping themselves healed with Drain Life, since drains are not affected by the decrease in healing effects and the increase in damage done is almost as great as the increase in damage taken from Nether Burn. Warlocks with 2 points in the Soul Siphon talent can even surpass the increase in Nether Burn damage when there are 6 Affliction debuffs on Netherspite. (This is going to be changed in patch 2.3 according to PTR release notes)"

However, this was changed in 2.3 as reported. Could someone change it? (I don't have sufficient knowledge of Wikipedia formatting to do it myself)

~ Valtuda 09:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I removed it. Stillfresh 19:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Threatwipe when entering banish phase?

I've tanked the fight a number of times, and I'm bothered by Netherspite picking other targets for the occasional melee swings between breaths, at least at first. Watching the ToT, I'm actually seen him eyeing a (searing, was it?) totem before. I've banked rage for when he changes to banish and warn my ever obedient DPS over vent prior to the swap (maybe half listen) and try to crank out hard threat when he changes, but it doesn't seem to be working. There's definitely some kind of threat wipe, I keep the roof well over top DPS's head during the portal phase. --Falos 10:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Corrections

I made the page much simpler, corrected poor wording/grammar, and most importantly corrected factual errors. Netherbreath does not have an infinite range, the Void Zone creation information was incorrect, the targeting information for Banish phase was wrong, etc. Also, some of the strategies (though possible) were just too confusing (and unnecessary) to include in the main explanation of the fight and I think that this new layout will be much more beneficial to readers. If alternate strategies are to be explained at such great legnth, they should be put under a serperate heading so that they dont take the explanation on a wild tanget.--Litearc ta co 03:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I've had reports of people against the walls hit by netherbreath, so I still have doubts. --Falos 08:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)