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Talk:Northrend giant

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Deletion vote

Votes

Delete
  1. Delete Wige (Talk - Contribs) 15:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC) - (This page refers to an outdated name, and numerous other reasons for deletion have been provided by other users on this page.)
  2. Delete Jormungand Image:IconSmall_Rogue.gif talk · contribs 15:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC) - (All the content on this page is also on the Giant page, so there's no reason to keep both.)
  3. Delete slxception (me/speak) 15:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC) - (Included in other pages already?)
  4. Delete Siradys (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC) - (http://www.wowwiki.com/Giant has EXACTLY the same info with the addition of bone giants not to mention each of the Wrath variants are marked with a Wrath logo making this entirely redundant. Even if you kept this page, you'd have to delete the giant types section from the giants page and link it to here anyway, why not just have both on the same page entitled Giants? I'm not arguing that the info isn't valid just that it exists in full already.)
  5. Delete Bobalobabingbong (talk) 15:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC) - (This seems like a category, more than a page.)
  6. Delete Grynd (talk) 02:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC) - (It's redundant in the state it is now, and should be merged with one of the other pages as suggested. Either way it is a stub and need some work.)
  7. Delete Lakoto (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC) - (No point to this page.)
  8. Delete Scifischizo (talk) 00:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC) - (As has been stated, it's rather redundant information, people are more likely to search "Giants" first, and the title suggests there is some sort of separate race who call themselves the "Northrend Giants")
  9. Delete Zzzach467 (talk)00:07, 17 April 2009 (UTC) - (I have switched my vote over after reading the entire debate and realised that deleting it would be the best solution.)
  10. Delete Baggins - (no comment)
  11. Delete gOurra[T҂C] 20:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC) - (Changing my mind. The list is already on Giant, and this so-called "Northrend giant" doesn't seem to exist.)
  12. Delete Veobahamut (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC) - (already a page whats the point of this one.)
Keep
  1. Keep Lon-ami (talk) 11:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC) - (I think they are a different type of giant, and that they deserve their own page like Mountain Giants deserve their own one.)
  2. Keep Farcaster (talk) 13:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC) - (Useful as a disambiguation page, not sure who'd be desperate to know all the Northrend Giant Types, but it can always be useful, especially for new Northrend players.)
  3. Keep Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (T•C) 09:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC) - (I'll go ahead and vote, but see comments)
  4. Keep SWM2448 20:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC) - (But not in this form. WTF. Recap:"Northrend Giants" exist.[1][2] Some people say they do not for some reason (I thought such as well at one point). This page was turned into a list. The point of this page was lost. This page's purpose has changed back and forth so much that I am not even sure what this vote is for. This vote got screwed up somewhere...)
  5. Keep Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC) - (I will switch my vote because they are a race mencioned in two sources given by Sandwichman.)

Comments

This page isn't for the giants of Northrend. It's for the types of Northrend Giants that exist in the Warcraft Universe. Northrend giants can be considered a subrace of their own, which has nothing to do with Mountain giants, and that, like Mountain giants, is briefly showed in Giants page.

Northrend giant is a placeholder name, until we know their name or we decide to organize them all under one of the subraces.

I hope this short explanation leaves things clear for voting, just because some of the arguments have nothing to do with the topic.

--Lon-ami (talk) 18:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC) (This page should be named as it formerly was, anyway: Northrend giant)

Considering this deletion vote started before this article became a disambiguation page, this vote should either become invalid (due to changes) or a new vote be started, for same reason. I personally think it should stay, with a little cleanup, since it is a disambiguation page. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (T•C) 08:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
From the research I have seen on the history and mythology of the Warcraft Universe it does in fact seem that these humanoid Giant types in Northrend originate from a different source as the more elemental seeming ones found in other areas such as Outland and Azeroth. In theory one can propose that the Mountain Giant types were created from a substance (such as earth, air, etc.) and are more constructs that are sentient,while the Northrend Giants seem more humanoids potentially descending from elder races (such as perhaps the Titans). While the elemental constructs such as Sea Giants and such were believed to be created by the Titans, there is no definitive evidence of the same origin for the Northrend Giants as of yet, and for that alone one should not assume that they are exactly the same. While the general category of "Giant" does apply to both, I personally think that from what I've read the elemental constructs or "Mountain Giants" and the humanoid giants currently referred to as "Northrend Giants" are not one and the same. Seems to me it should be one general page on Giants in general but emphasizing the difference, with a section within said page pointing out the differences in the humanoid and non-humanoid types. In the end they're all Giants, however I feel the info on the Northrend Giants page (or an updated better phrased derivative thereof) should be placed within the Giants page, with proper categorization separating the Mountain Giants and their derivatives from the humanoid giant types (Storm Giant, Flesh Giant, etc.). --Darqueness 1:23PM, 1 April 2009
Well, I changed thisw page a few weeks ago so that the controvercial term, "Northrend Giant" was not present in this page, and I cleared it up by saying, "There are many types of fearsome giants that live in Northrend," It was previously, "There are many typesw of fearsome Northrend Giants." I felt it was a lot less controvercial when the term Northrend Giant was removed, because that term makes it sound like they are another race, which they are not. (The phrase 'Northrend Giant' was, in fact, the old title, but it was changed, so I believe the phrase should be removed from the page alltogether.) But someone changed it back, and I do not agree with this change. What do you all think?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zzzach467 (talk · contr).

I actually, after reading this entire debate, have found the best idea WOULD be just to trash this page and tag these giants with the Template: WotLK. I withdrew my vote and am switching it over to the deletion side. You have all convinced me that that's the best solution. Zzzach467 (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Northrend giant isn't a race, its a description used to describe giants native to northrend. The only reference that gives uses the description northrend giant specifies that there are "multiple types". That alone points out that it isn't a race. No one would say there are multiple types of "Bronzebeard dwarves". Its simply describing the fact that there are multiple types of giants from northrend being used to create flesh titans. Nothing special about it, no clarification as to what types of giants are being used. Yes this page could easily be deleted, it serves no point reallyBaggins (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
It's not Bronzebeard dwarves, it's dwarves in general.
--Lon-ami (talk) 19:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
That example might work if you could prove that "Northrend giant" was a race in and of itself. But that hasn't even been confirmed.Baggins (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, SWM's quote is useful in that it at least suggests that Blizzard had the idea of releasing something called Northrend giant in concept art. Did it make it past the drawing board? Does the references in flesh giants being made out of different types of NorthrenDdgiant actually refer to the concept creature, or is it simply a description of them being made of different types of giants from northrend? Trying to link those two quotes is a bit difficult. Furthermore it would be pure speculation to state that all currently listed giants are the originally intended "Northrend giant" from the oconcept art. Seems that the entire page is based on both speculation and unfinished concept material. The accuracy of said sources would be in dispute as a source of lore.Baggins (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I still say they exist. I edited it to show the best of both worlds (The list and the passages). They may have become Storm giants, but that is not the point here.--SWM2448 20:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a big difference between "existing" and being limited to "concept" material. Lamia appear in concept art, but do not necessarily exist.Baggins (talk) 20:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

After the preview info page was merged with Storm giant (Per below), it was turned from a redirection into a disambiguation list. People fought about what should and should not be on the list, the term "Northrend giant" was deemed "conrovercial", this link tried to add something, and the list itself was deemed redundant and nominated for deletion. A mess. Now the debate seems to be if the concept still exists in WotLK. I think it looks like a proto-storm/ice giant, and the flesh giant page seems to say it is a general term.--SWM2448 20:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Why don't we let the information from the official WoW site and put the template Template:Removedfromgame, Template:Removedfromgame or a note that it never make it in-game? Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 22:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Northrend giant

It seems this new type is going to be far more human-like, judging from the concept art. ---- Image:Battlegroup_RoundIcon.pngVorbis Talk Contribs 13:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Have not heard about this kind of giant for a while. Are they still gonna show up in WotLK? Chaos of Warcraft (talk) 18:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Considering that pieces from them are being used in flesh giants, it seems likely.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Storm giant

As there is no other source for the name of the article, together with that they are likely Storm giants, I've suggested to merged this article with Storm giant. gOurra[T҂C] 20:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well the preview was likely a vague term, Storm Giant uses this model, and Gymer says it, so I agree. Though, the term was used here as well. Now, what of their 'icy' form that the pencil art is of?--SWM2448 22:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The term "Northrend giant" would not mean that there's a specific type of giant called "Northrend giant", but a giant that is in Northrend. Makes sense.
Of the art work, I have no idea. Maybe a different giant we've yet to see. gOurra[T҂C] 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Flesh giant articles states that they are made out of different varieties of "Northrend giants".Baggins (talk) 19:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thiassi the Lightning Bringer is brother to a living Storm giant, Gymer. What does "different varieties" means? Like an abomination they are various part of giant stitched together or that every kin of giant can become one? The fact is that only storm giants seem to bear the Curse of Flesh (some vrykul too). The other ones being some kind of elementals, no?--N'Nanz (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Apparently some flesh giants are created from different giants, and some are created from a single giant.Baggins (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I feel the content on this page shoule be moved to something like List of giant types in Northrend, as 'Northrend Giant' is an official, if not early, name for what are now called storm giants.--SWM2448 21:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The content on this page *is* on the the page Giants, which is a perfectly sensible place for a list of types of giants. This page is redundant and useless, and should redirect to Giants. (A couple types listed on this page are currently missing on the Giants page, but I'm adding them right now.)LockeZ (talk) 23:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I concur; this page is redundant, since there is no mob class "Northrend Giant" separate from "Giant." It would serve people better to tag the giants in the list on the Giant page with the WotLK icon Image:Wrath-Logo-Small.PNG (and, for the same reason, tag the Burning Crusade -only giants Image:Bc icon.gif). -Mozai (talk) 16:22, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sons of Hodir

Aren't they more of a faction than a race?  Image:IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 05:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Another race

Seriously, I believe they are another race, who has nothing to do with mountain giants.

Mountain Giants seem to be elemental related, and they can be found at Outland, too. I believe the "Northrend Giants" are the titan-created giants, and that the mountain giants are just another thing.

--Lon-ami (talk) 17:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what you discuss. Northrend giants in some context have referred to the storm giants. In other context such as model names its referred to the stone giants.Baggins (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, I don't feel they fit in Mountain Giant's page. They all are related between them, and have nothing to do with Mountain giants, so they need their own page.
We could add them in Storm Giant's page, like HERE is done, but we aren't sure if the Storm Giant is the main subrace. Anyway, with Vrykuls we did that, so I would agree in focusing on Storm Giants. The RPG; I'd just ignore it.
--Lon-ami (talk) 18:46, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
For a little context, the "Northrend giant" was mentioned in an insider interview as a new type of giant[3], and the WotLK bestiary entry for Flesh giants mentioned that they were made "from multiple types of fearsome Northrend giants."[4] (Hinting that there was more than one type of giant applied to the term). Per the discussion above, the info was merged with Storm giant, and this page was moved to "List of giant types in Northrend", as that is what it had become. Now the page is deemed useless...--SWM2448 18:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
But look. This page is not titled, "Northrend Giant." It is titled, "List of Giant Types in Northrend." It's not they that deserve their own page because they're their own race. It's that this is a quick reference to people to know what races and species of giants live in Northrend!Zzzach467 (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that info on Storm Giant page :S.

Also, this page was formerly named "Northrend giant", Baggins just moved it to "List of giant types in Northrend".

We are speaking as a race, like "Mountain giant", which has inside all the subraces.

--Lon-ami (talk) 14:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not feel that a list of giants who live in Northrend is needed, as all it does is repeat information found on Giants as a whole. And if people want to find out what the different types are then they will tend to go to Giants first, so it makes sense to keep that list rather than sending them here. Of course if there's an actual race called Northrend Giants, which is not simply another name for a known giant race, then that should be created separately and not used as an excuse to keep this article. Jormungand Image:IconSmall_Rogue.gif talk · contribs 15:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Why was it merged Northrend giant with Storm giant?

Looking at the history of the article I saw you merged the original information of this article with Storm giant, however I don't see any reason to merge them, first of all there is no source that state them as being the same and also their descriptions and apparences doesn't match. Maybe this page should not be deleted and just split the information of northrend giant from storm giant article. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 01:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Added Grizzly Hills Giant

I think they're not "Northrend giants". Yeah, they are giants of northrend, but this disambiguation page is for the other race of giants, which is unnamed. Grizzly Hills Giant's race is Mountain Giant.

--Lon-ami (talk) 12:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Again (vryul?) Seems people doesn't understand at all what this page is about.
Northrend giants, not giants from Northrend. We're speaking of a race, like Mountain giant. Inside this race, we have fire giants, storm giants, etc.
Not vrykul nor subspecies of Mountain Giants.
I'll repeat it again. This isn't for giants that you can find at Northrend.
--Lon-ami (talk) 19:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
There are actually "different races of Northrend giants" according to information from "flesh giants". To be fair since flesh giants are made out of only flesh-type giants that would imply they could only be pieced together from half-giants like vrykul and storm giants. So northrend giant by itself isn't even a race, its a description for several different races. But it doesn't really matter, this page is going to be deleted soon enough.Baggins (talk) 19:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Also by your same arguement, most of the things listed in the page such as fire giants, stone giants, etc, should be taken from the page because they aren't confirmed to be "northrend giant" by your definition of the term. Only flesh giant would be left since it makes reference to Northrend giants. Storm giants and half-giants could stay because they are flesh based giants. Although they wouldn't necessarily be confirmed to be the source of pieces for flesh giant. If bone giants stay, so would half-giants vrykul. Bone giants are the bones of vrykul.
Otherwise everything would have to go, and that is one of the reasons the pages is being deleted.Baggins (talk) 19:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Also looking at model for Grizzly hills giant its just a standard "mountain giant" which as we know are not native to Northrend and can be found all over the world.Baggins (talk) 19:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty ironic with all those useless pages around. Also, votes should be revised somehow, you know. Everything has changed thousand times. No need to restart everything, just make sure everyone has his vote in the right side with the last events.
Also, I would leave this category only for the giants. VVrykul are big, but don't match with the sizes of these giants, and have their own subspecies and all. The objective of this page was intented to be a disambiaguation page about this "race" of giants. Call them as you want, but it's clear they aren't the same as Mountain Giants.
The point is that all those giants listed have some equal characteristics. They are not like the Mountain Giants and they're heavily related to titans.
And naming them Northrend giants doesn't imply they are exclusive to Northrend.
--Lon-ami (talk) 19:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
What I think is that these was going to be an enemy race in Wrath of the Lich King but the idea was taken out of the game at the time of it's release. I think this article should't have any of the giants in the list except if they are sourced as Northrend giant in a quest or an official source. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Outdated Deletion Vote?

With the last edit to the page, it's pretty clear Northrend giant exists.

So, this deletion vote should be changed to just an edition vote, to decide whether to have all the other subraces in this article.

--Lon-ami (talk) 20:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Lon-ami is right, when I voted for deletion was when I saw a list of the giants in Northrend but now that I see a concept art and an official source changed my vote, and as Lon-ami say the vote should be for deleting the list not the article itself as we have official sources. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Technially the use of "northrend giant" in the concept discussion is part of an article entitled the "Giants of Northrend". A description that implies that "northrent giant" is a description rather than actually being a race name, and that the proper description is actually "giants of Northrend" as per the title (but both descriptions are useable). Infact its from an article that is so old that it predates any of the later ideas blizzard created for "giants of Northrend". This suggests early on Blizzard only had the concept to create one new type of giant for Northrend. But since them they created a plethora of northrend giants. In other words the older article is grossly outdated, Blizzard went about creating other giants of Northrend. If it was the only type, then there wouldn't be any problems, but that's no longer the case.Baggins (talk)
The flesh giant page says there is more than one type. They may be grouped as one race/group.--SWM2448 21:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The flesh giant page was created much later, when there was concept art or released information for various different types of "giants of Northrend/northrend giants"; ice giants, frost giants, stone giants, half-giants, etc etc. There is no honest way to connect the use of the term "Northrend giant" from the later source when multiple types of Northrend giants exist to very early source when there was only one type of "giants of Northrend". It simply is misleading interpretation of the sources. You have to take production history into account.Baggins (talk) 21:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Then if they two pages are not talking about the same thing, what are they referring to? Storm giants (Like it was merged to)?--SWM2448 21:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Flesh based giants... That could be a combination of storm giants or vrykul... and since its also pretty early information it might have been referencing so-called fjord giants, and the Northrend "frost giants" concept art that seemd to have been flesh based creatures as well. Neither of which made it into the game. Its not clear, and may never be clear. Quest text from the game might clarify things. Can you think of a flesh giant with a backstory?
In addition if you go to the file names many of the new models found only Northrend have the "Northrendgiant" in their model names, including some of the more mountain giant like stone giants IIRC. Showing that blizzard had apparently changing its mind as to the meaning of "northrend giant" and had created more than one-type of "giant of Northrend" than it originally envisioned early on.Baggins (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Your reasoning seems to have some speculation as well. Anyway, Gymer's quests talk about Thiassi the Lightning Bringer. Kreug Oathbreaker is called a Ymirjar, but when you throw Frost vrykul into that mix, no one seems to agree what a Ymirjar is, and he only adds to the confution.--SWM2448 22:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
So ya Thiassi, he isn't made out of different types of giants, he's made from a single storm giant.Baggins (talk) 22:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Like in the "Merge with Storm giant" discussion? This page needs a fate.--SWM2448 22:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Seems to me that merge into storm giant would work. The only good example of a flesh giant was as undead storm giant. Said lore for that being never described him as a "northrend giant". There is no evidence of any "northrend giant" race actually existing. There are cleary more than one type of "giants of Northrend" but its a description it while they may have intended for it to be a single type, the final game shows there to be many different types, and primarily for fleshy variety its only the storm giants fully confirmed. Merging it into storm giant wouldn't be much different than merging Northrend "frost giant" into ice giant, and I think fjord giant was merged into one of the vrykul related pages.
You also remember we merged a few creatures that do exist beyond the concept state, Northrend wendigo and Northrend ghouls into wendigo and ghouls pages respectively.Baggins (talk) 23:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Should there be a merge, or a note on how much it exists?--SWM2448 23:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
A merge with a note at the bottom of the storm giant page. Either that or may just get the full deletion treatment like "fjord giant" received. If it wasn't deleted the page would be moved to "giants of Northrend" as per the article title from the website. But no need to do that yet, since its going to be deleted.Baggins (talk) 23:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
People voted, but things keep changing. It could be changed to a redirect. What an odd circle that would be.--SWM2448 23:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd say sounds like redirect will be the final outcome.Baggins (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
...however there's no real reference to that the Northrend giant actually is the storm giant, even with the description. The art doesn't even resemble it... --gOurra[T҂C] 15:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
True story. I think they were a previous thing, that they later decided to transform in all the giants we have in this list.
--Lon-ami (talk) 16:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
While the picture isn't a perfect match there are a couple of details that match, both storm giants and the artwork have shields around their shins, both are flesh-based creatures (at least the concept art looks flesh like). I agree with Lon-ami, and its what I mentioned above, they started out with the idea to have a single type of "giants of Northrend", and then things simply multiplied from there. If we look at other concept art it looks like they had a few more ideas that didn't make it to release, a different type of "frost giant" (see Ice giant), and the fjord giant[5].
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