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See also relevant discussion at Talk:Old Gods.

The Forgotten One

"I can hardly beleive that the Forgotten one killed by Arthas is an Old God. Arthas didn't have "an army of undead" with him, he just had a dosen or two soldiers and was in a very weak state when they reached the Forgotten one (he was losing his powers). And remember that the Old Gods were able to fight with the Titans themselves. And how powerful the Titans really are? You can see from the fact that Sargeras ALONE was able to defeat Eredars and the Nathrezim EASILY. Thats including Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. So there's no way a pack of undead soldiers with two heroes (one of them very weak) was able to kill an Old God, even if he was in a weakened state (not to mention there is no proof that he really was in a weakened state). And C'thul was defeated by many HEROES, not ordinary units. Also there is a sugestion that C'thul was weakened because he was wounded by the Titans (they thought tey killed him), which doesn't mean that the other Old Gods are also weakened. So whatever that was there's no way it was an Old God." - Daki91


WoW PCs are much closer in power to regular units (footmen, grunts, etc.) than they are to hero units - you can't take on the likes of Thrall or Tyrande one-one-one and win, can you?

It takes 40 level 60 PCs to defeat C'Thun. It also takes 40 level 60 PCs to defeat Anub'Rekhan (though he is somewhat easier than C'Thun). Anub'arak is much stronger than Anub'Rekhan. It's not much a stretch to assume that Anub'arak could defeat C'Thun by himself. Arthas was weakened at the time, but he was still a peerless swordsman with an artifact weapon - even in that state, he'd most likely be more than a match for any 5 or 10 PCs. They also had around a dozen crypt fiends with them (likely all level 60+ elites).

Old God or not, the Forgotten One could have been much more powerful than C'Thun (in his weakened state) and they'd still have been able to take it down. -- Egrem 18:30, 18 April 2007 (EST)

Remember that their is a fine line between game mechanic facts, and lore facts. Hordesupporter 16:06, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Just a retcon?

I think that this thing is C'thun, but in an early stage of plot development. The forgotten one may have been ment to play the same role to the nerubians C'thun does to the Qiraji, but long before AQ was even thought of. With the idea of the aqir split and given the lack of lore on the two, his location (and slaying) may have just been retconned. Any thoughts?--SWM2448 17:25, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Also I think that if it is not a retcon, this is a projection of C'thun (as guessed above). When the trolls split the empire, and then the split was made perminant by the sundering, the Nerubians wre cut off from C'thun's influence and developed their own twisted/cruel, but not genocidal to all non-insect life, culture. C'thun made this projection to re-enslave the Nerubians. That explains how a small army of undead led by a weakened Arthas could kill a projection of an already weakened old god.--SWM2448 19:12, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Complete rehash

To say this article needs a major facelift is a gross understatement. We've got people disagreeing on numbers, zealots trying to prove the Forgotten One is an Old God, a "speculation" section on why the Forgotten One isn't an Old God, and about seven different definitions of "Faceless." This article must be fixed, or removed. --Ragestorm 21:27, 17 December 2006 (EST)

Agreed, i considered doing so, but i just don't have the time today. -- Zeal Vurte 03:23, 18 December 2006 (EST)
It constantly repeats itself.--SWM2448 22:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Time Rift

In relation to reason for the changes in [1], i'd like to point out that it is speculation. War of the Ancients never makes it clear what caused the timerift. It is more plausable it was an action in the future, otherwise it would have always happened that way and never had been a timerift. Old Gods, even though they have little concept of time, do not live outside the bounds of it. I agree the changes were correct, just not the reason. It probably should be added as speculation in this article. --Zeal Vurte 07:59, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Nozdormu doesn't specifically state that it's the Old Gods, but he does state that the disturbances in the flow of time originated prior to the War, as he "sent Krasus to the time period where he believed the threat originated", meaning that the escape plan would have originated then, not during the events of RoC or TFT, thereby nixing, in my opinon, the possibility that the Old God Arthas faced (if is was an Old God) was weakened by using the time-rift. --Ragestorm 09:04, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Snakes..... Why did it have to be snaes!?

Does anyone else notice a lot of snakes involved with the Old Gods? The wailling caverns are crawling with them, the Naga have snake aspects of snakes as do some of the fire creatures serving the Firelord. Perhaps Snakes are big thing for the Elder Gods. Or maybe just one of them. C'thun doesn't seem to have any ties to snakes, he's more of a bug guy. Maybe there's one who's all about snakes. Meneldir

Ula-tek, the troll snake god is perhaps one of them. Hakkar is snake-like and perhaps one of them also. The RPG says this.--SWM2448 20:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
It's also possible that the use of snakes in the Wailing Caverns was coincidental to Hakkar's snake-theme. The Druids of the Fang were always Druids of the Fang...they just weren't always evil. Then again, it's possible that they were susceptible to corruption because their totem matched that of Hakkar's. Dwoedin 14:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Why Azeroth?

When the old gods were imprisoned in the elemental realm (Eh are the elementals and the old gods the same thing?) which happens to be on Azeroth. Maybe it has to do with the well of eternaty as by chance it could be the only one of its kind (Besides the sunwell)in the universe! Plus if the old gods sealed them in that realm. They would need a door (In other words in order to lock someone in a room you must open a door so they can enter).! and werent the Legion in there *Insert high number of invasions of planets* using the well to get to Azeroth like a portal?(If my sources are correct AND I HAVNT READ THE WAR OF THE ANCIENTS TRILOGY)The old gods might have well would of excaped using it but now cant (SINCE THERE IS A HUGE DEAD TREE ON TOP OF IT) --The last Alterac 07:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

As i feel sorry for you now, because apparently no one is daring to touch this, i'll give you a blunt answer. Go read those books, or even the relevent wiki pages relevent to what you're speculating as you seem to have no understanding of what you're talking about. For the record. Old Gods are not Elementals, they were not sent to the elemental plane, which in turn is not located on Azeroth. --User:Zeal/Sig 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Elemental Plane is not "on azeroth" its shares a seperate plane of existence in the same area as Azeroth. It more or less overlaps Azeroth but is not part of Azeroth.Baggins 18:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

one under maelstorm?

If one was under Maelstorm that would mean the titans burried one under the Well of Eternity which wouldn't make any sense at all. Geeko 07:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Except that in The Sundering, an Old One reached from the Well of Eternity to attack Nozdormu, as well as manifested at the end to attempt salvage the summoning of Sargeras. Dwoedin 14:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning

This section...

"Avatar of the Old Gods?
There is much controversy surrounding the fact that Arthas, alone aside from Anub'Arak, and severely weakened, managed to kill an Old God. This leads many to the belief that he killed an "avatar" of an Old God, an extension of it, a sort of disposable body... while the Old God's mind was occupying said body, the actual god was still deep in its prison.
Some may argue that they were defeated so easily because they were in a regenerative state, and this is entirely possible, however all alternatives must be considered.
Following this theory to its logical conclusion, we can now wonder: did we actually kill C'Thun? Or was it just another fake body, another extension of its mind? No clear evidence exists to justify nor nullify this theory... so it remains a mystery, for the moment."


...is entirely redundant to what is said on the page beforehand. I think it should be deleted. Dwoedin 14:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Round Two

Cleaned up the page again. No substantive edits. Added bullet points. Arranged by topics and subtopics, so that the page flows better from Existence -> Location -> Abilities -> Factions -> Influence -> Future. Dwoedin 17:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You man want to look over the main old gods article to make sure things are consistent between the two (I.E. that this article is taking everything into account).
Also per policy speculation should only use posted if and only if it can be supported by lore of some kind or by quotes from Blizzard employees (citations are a must), and speculation must not actively conflict with known lore (I.E. speculation should not knowingly ignore established lore).Baggins 17:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
That's the trouble with this page. I didn't write a lot of the information on this page, but I hesitated to outright eliminate a lot of the false information unless I had a clear and convincing reason to take it out.
Compounding my reviewing difficulty is that I discovered the "cannonical" Blizzard lore on this matter keeps changing. An archived version of Blizzard's "Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth" says that of the five old gods, four were imprisoned beneath the earth. Now, that page says all five were imprisoned. Also, the original references to Hakkar the Soulflayer, who was the "Ancient Blood God," might have simply meant that he was worshiped in ancient times by the Trolls rather than being an Old God. However, players interpreted "Ancient Blood God" as a synonym for Old God--which we know is now a term of art referring specifically to the five lords defeated by the Titans. The RPG manuals carried that interpretation on, however, and the RPG manuals seem to be semi-cannonical. But then they also say that Ula'Tek is an Old God, and that corpse of Old Gods are in Desolace...if these claims are true, then there are more than the original five Old Gods, and Cthulu-inspired theme only holds true for C'Thun. Dwoedin 22:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Round Three

Took your advice, and got a bit harsher with cleanup. Removed a lot of stuff that seemed entirely unsupported, which made further organizational changes necessary. Dwoedin 22:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One issue, I notice, the speculation on about "old god" lower case. As far as I know it has only been spelled that one in one instance ever. It may not mean anything.

As for your comments on canon, I must warn about our canon policy. The policy is that we do not allow it to be used in pages. If you read the article on Warcraft RPG you'll see that it is indeed considered a valid source of lore.Baggins 03:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As for how many were "imprisoned" depending on the source, some say, all 5, sometimes only 4, other times only 3 :p, flavor lore perhaps?Baggins 03:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Compiling the references to 'Old Gods'

To keep track of all references to Old Gods, I'm putting down all the direct references to the term. I may add indirect but possible references later.

In times of legend, when the Titans first arrived on the world of Azeroth, they found it in the grip of cruel beings called the Old Gods. These entities and their elemental servants opposed the Titans. The two forces clashed; the war was long and violent and ripped Azeroth into new shapes. The Titans triumphed in the end, and they constructed a prison plane in the Twisting Nether to hold their immortal enemies. This world is the Elemental Plane, and it still holds the elementals and their dark masters.Template:Cite
Revenants are minor elemental creatures who once served as foot soldiers for the malefic Old Gods when the world was young. When the titans defeated the Old Gods and chained them beneath the cold earth, the wicked revenants and their greater elemental cousins were banished to an alternate dimension. Locked away from the world they once ruled, the fire of the elementals’ hatred for the titans and their creations burned with increasing intensity.Template:Cite
Troggs are a barbaric, almost “caveman-like’’ race with very low intelligence but a great capacity for violence of all kinds. They were the titans’ first attempt to create life from living stone, but the experiment was a failure. Dwarven scholars postulate that the experiment went wrong due to the interference of the Old Gods. (The successful second attempt gave rise to the dwarven race.)Template:Cite
Though humans may have previously had access to divine spells through worship of the Old Gods or early cults that would become the Church of the Holy Light, once they meet the elves of Quel’Thalas they will finally have access to arcane spellcasting.Template:Cite
In all my years wandering Azeroth, I have never failed to follow a rumor of an ancient city in shambles or the entrance to an underground temple to the Old Gods.Template:Cite
Long ago, the trolls here attempted to summon and control Hakkar, an old god of theirs.Template:Cite
The Cauldron is an enormous excavation site...I was not able to determine for what the Dark Irons are digging. Probably titan or Old God artifacts, but I cannot be sure.Template:Cite
I believed these ruins and odd, stepped pyramids remained from the days of Zul’Aman’s empire, but they could be much older. Titan or Old God remnants, perhaps? I resolved to look into the matter. ...They worship ancient deities, though whether these deities are the mythic Old Gods or some strange creation of their voodoo witch doctors, I do not know.Template:Cite
Ula-Tek, apparently, is a serpent goddess. One of the Old Gods, perhaps? Obviously, this information is bad news, but the Ironforge dwarves are particularly concerned:they have seen the devastation that an elemental lord’s rebirth brings, and a bona fide Old God must be even more powerful.Template:Cite
Yet he inadvertently summoned Ragnaros, a blazing Old God whose birth tore the land asunder. Dark Iron dwarves...Their eyes glow with orange flame — one of many gifts from their Old God master.Template:Cite
A shadow hunter might venture onto grounds consecrated to the Old Gods and spill his own blood to entice the forces of primeval cruelty to come and visit their worst afflictions upon him.Template:Cite
Very few mortals know of the Old Gods, and fewer still consider them anything more than a legend. Before the titans came to Azeroth, the malign Old Gods -- colossal beings of elemental fury -- rules the world and the savage elementals dwelt upon it. The titans defeat the Old Gods and chained the raging beings deep beneath the earth where supposedly, they remain to this day.Template:Cite
To the west of Darkshore stands a mysterious monument, a massive adamantine glaive buried in an unmovable boulder called the Old God Skull. The night elves consider this a sacred area, as they believe the mysterious titans, creators of the world, are the only ones who could have wielded the gigantic glaive.Template:Cite

--Baggins 04:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I love you. If you'd help tag the flavor lore too, I'd have your children. Dwoedin 04:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
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