Talk:Race origins

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Contents 1 Draenei 2 Cenarious 3 What about the other races ? 4 Trogg v Earthen as Titan Helpers 5 Centaurs 6 Ursol, Ursoc, Furbolgs and Pandaren 7 troll/elf picture 8 Tauren 9 Human/Dwarf Lineage 10 Azotha 11 Another Thing 12 Purpose 13 Dark Iron Dwarves 14 Undead Gnome 15 move 16 Draenei/Troll speculative lineage 17 Silithid 18 gnomes 19 WOTLK, Uldum, Ulduar, Iron Dwarves and Vrykul 20 Dwarves & sea giants? 21 Statues in Uldaman 22 Rumors 23 Emerald Dream. 24 Wretched 25 A General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor 26 Humans and Gnomes from Troggs/Giants? Seriously? 27 Humans and Gronn: We are family? 28 Draenei Lineage image 29 Fact vs. Speculation 30 Second General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor 31 Why so much redundancy? 32 Origin of the species evolution line icons are missing

Draenei

-someone will have to do something about the eredar, new draenei, and the broken and lost one levels of corruption. But don't look at me.--Wowguy

Hum. That must be a job for ...

LEMON BABY lmao--Kirochi 14:01, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Well the tree goes something like this. We have the original Eredar(infact Draenei 'Exiled Ones') are part of this original group having avoided the demonic corruption

Those that stayed on Argus were corrupted by Sargeras(being turned into ginormous demon warlocks). Those kind fall under the corrupted category, as we currently break origins down.

Then Draenei have 2 known subspecies (both created by magical and demonic corruption).

Akama's tribe started out as the lost ones variety, then turned into the broken. But it might work both ways as well, some that went straight to Broken style but converted to lost ones style, as the devolution chart implies...Baggins 17:50, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Hum, actually there are three subspecies : Lost Ones, Broken and Demons. The first was created by the passing of the Portal, the second because of Draenor's collapse at the end of WC2:BDP and the third because of demonic corruption. So I think that someone (LemonBaby if he still feels involved in WoWwiki) should create a new tree with Eredar ancestors of Eredar demons and Draenei, whose children would be the Broken and the Lost Ones, then update the demonic corruption tree.--Kirochi

I'll do it within the next hours :-) LemonBaby 18:36, 11 May 2006 (MEZ)

What you said above is exactly what I said, :).

"The first was created by the passing of the Portal"

Actually we need some citation for that claim, other sources stated that Lost Ones were initially mutated in Draenor by the destruction of the world, but not necessarily mutated by the passing through the portal. Plus new info says that some began mutation during the 8 year war of genocide with the Orcs. Because of all the varying released that explain different things that mutated, citations are definitely going to have made, to keep track of each varying source of information.Baggins 10:46, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

To LB : thanks man you rock ^^ To Baggins : Sorry, if that's so I didn't read well enough what you wrote. I agree that the causes of Draenei mutations stand unclear at the moment, and we shall not write stuff we aren't sure of.--Kirochi 13:35, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I think Broken style comes before Lost ones, since it looks more like the original draenei form and because it comes before the Lost ones in the official devolution chart. Akama and his tribe's appearance as Broken despite their lost one appearance in WC3 could be just a retcon, like the Sargeras involvement in Eredar/Draenei history (also the description of the draenei as small green humanoids we had before.)-Wowguy

Cenarious

Concerning the lineage of Cenarius: in WoW, you can take a Horde quest to go to Raynewood and kill Ordanus, said to be a son of Cenarius. http://www.goblinworkshop.com/quests/ordanus.html He's not quite in the same league as Remulos and Zaetar, but where would he fit in? --Turanghar 08:13, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

It is only a blood elf, who said this. I don't think, she knows that exactly. It may be, that she takes her information from some old myth or stories. I think, that could explain it... --LemonBaby

There are many creatures who are simply called "Son of Cenarius" in northern Stonetalon, Ordanus is just a named one of these. I believe they are sort of the male versions of Dryads.

What about the other races ?

Does humankind comes from apes (and do apes even exist in WoW ?, answered), are Tauren descendants of a horny cow and a crazy peasant and Gnolls sons of a pervert hyena and an innocent human virgin, do (answered) Draenei, Ogres and Orcs have a common ancestor, are there (answered) any other races from Outland, are there (answered) dwarven, (answered) night elven, tauren or (answered) troll undead, (answered) did the undead exist before the raise of the Scourge, has anybody seen (answered) another Blood Elf than the one belonging to the Shadow Council ingame and why aren't there more human ethnies as in the real world ?--Kirochi 18:17, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

We really don't know about any of the other races, and that's why they're not listed here. =p --Kakwakas 18:22, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Found an answer for Dwarf undeads : there's one female forsaken dwarf apothecary at Undercity.--Kirochi 20:36, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Really? I've never seen her. O_o There's also a male gnome there near the plague manufactory, by the way... And don't forget Sylvanas. ;D --Kakwakas 21:01, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)

Didn't know for the Gnome, thanks. May you know his name ? The Dwarf Undead is Apothecary Brightflame Masjenal whose job is implantation of the new invented plagues after their testing by Apothecary Oni'jus (fun fact, the only Undead Half-Elf female known in the game) and their creation by the good ol'fellow Faranell ^^. Also found that the Grimtotem are VERY friendly to the Forsaken. By the way, I never forgot about Sylvanas, but she's a High Elf, not a Night Elf, so you'll find that I never asked for it d-: --Kirochi 19:28, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

Yeah, but you'll find that you didn't ask about undead gnomes, either. XP I can't remember his name, though... Just go by the plague-making machine in the Undercity. Is that undead half-elf in the game or not? If she is, could you maybe take a screenshot when you go to check out the gnome? XD --Kakwakas 19:57, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

To answer one of the initial questions; yes, there were Undead before the scourge. Death Knights in Warcraft II could raise two skeletons from each corpse with a spell call, suprisingly enough, Raise Dead. Rutkowski 20:28, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)

Well, there are gorillas in Un'Goro and Stranglethorn. That's apes for you. It's mysterious that we have no human myths or legends, except their Holy Light religion. As for Taurens, I'd think they believe themselves to be created by Earthmother, though that doesn't explain a lot ;)Potbasher 18 Apr 2006

Lol ! Ok, when I have time to reroll as an Undead I will :P And yes, Oni'jus, former half-elf and now is seen, just next to Faranell and Masjena.--Kirochi 07:37, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

I'm next to Faranell and you can't see either Oni'jus or Masjena there... As far as I know those can only be seen as D&DRPG characters, and are not in the MMO game as of yetBaggins 15:37, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

You're right, sorry. So who can you see there ? Does the undead gnome exist ?--Kirochi 12:08, 21 April 2006 (EDT)

The undead gnome does exist, he just uses a leper gnome skin. --Adonzo 16:11, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

NEWS ! The Surgical Assistants, while classified in Humanoids look like Undead Gnomes. Game mechanics will always blow my mind Oo--Kirochi 02:32, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

NEWS ! Foreman Thistlenettle is an Undead Dwarf. He anyway uses a ghoul model.--K ) (talk) 11:34, 15 November 2006 (EST)

Trogg v Earthen as Titan Helpers

"When the Titans were shaping Azeroth, they created the Troggs to assist them." - Origin of the races (as of Feb 12, 2006)
The Earthen (not the Troggs) were the creations that assisted the Titans. The Troggs were the first destabilization of the Earthen.

"There are two potential results when the Earthen's synthesis matrix destabilizes." - Lorekeeper of Norgannon
~ Dohgrath 10:53, 12 Feb 2006 (EST)

Hum. Looking at the Gnoll page, it appears that this race is alsoan offshoot from the Earthen. Some more info to add(-;--Kirochi 18:17, 17 June 2006 (EDT)

That was User:Charred But Alive making subtle changes throughout the wiki to try and validate his Gnoll Rumor. --Adonzo 00:24, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Shouldn't the gnoll be removed from the tree then? AzraelOpacus 00:23, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

I don't know. I'm sorry I made this picture and changed it in a hurry. As we lack information, can we let it until we get some more from Blizzard ?--Kirochi 04:20, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

Centaurs

Other legends state that Cenarious may have had bastard children of his own that may have become Centaurs.

Which legends state this? The only info I've ever heard on the origin of the centaurs is the Maraudon quest line that states they were the offspring of Zaetar and Theradras.--Aeleas 12:38, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

Ursol, Ursoc, Furbolgs and Pandaren

Sooo... how are these guys arranged? Surely they're all pretty much family... --Vorbis 13:08, 13 June 2006 (GMT)

Although it seems likely, there is nothing to suggest that Pandaren are related to Furbolgs aside from their appearance =\ --Adonzo 16:08, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

Dude... Pandaren and Furbolgs look nothing alike. Atleast not normal Pandaren, the wierd easteregg Beastial Pandaren do tho.

idk in WC3 they even used the same 3d file just with different skins. not counting (pandarn brewmasters)

troll/elf picture

I felt it nessecary to point out that the new troll lore info blizzard let out points out that the night elves were once trolls of the Amani Empire and that particular empire was a forest troll nation, thus meaning the elves evolved not from dark trolls as the picture shows but from forest trolls. DJ talk

Ok. I think no one's against this point of view since it's clearly written that if the Elves descend from Trolls, it's from Forest ones (speak now or just don't). Start to make own picture unless someone arises against.--Kirochi 11:46, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

i've finished the picture but I'm not sure how to move it onto the wiki for some reason it won't let me upload to from my pictures if anyone nows how please tell

DJ talk

What? It doesn't say forest trolls anywhere on that page. It also does not confirm the connection. Therefore, no, you shouldn't change the picture. Not unless you can provide a quote :) -- Kirkburn 13:53, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

if you go to the trolls racial page it says that if the night elves came from trolls its the ones from the amani empire who are clearly stated in several place including worldofwarcraft.com to have been completly made of Forest trollsDJ talk

Since the official site lists Sand Trolls as a seperate branch of trolls, shouldn't they be include din the tree? -- AzraelOpacus 00:28, 16 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmpf, and Elune, a goddess, would just take on the look of an night elf and an entire race (Cenarius and his kids) would do it.... why? Because they like them? No, related.--- Celebant

Something for everyone to think about... when high elves moved away from the waters of the (eternal well?), they shrank and their skin took on a pinkish hue. the obvious cause is that they were not being effected by hte magic of teh well. so if they were related to trolls, then why would this happen? trolls are not influenced by the magic of teh well, so why do they stay that size? because trolls are trolls, and elves are not. well maybe, maybe not. something very important though that certainly should not be overlooked. -- Drag-5 22:40, 26 march 2007 (GMT)

Perhaps when far from that cursed last Well (made by Illidan), as stated on the discs of Norgannon, the elves "destabilized" and turned more mortal and weak as it happened with the dwarves when their "Earthen part" gone "corrupted or weakened" somehow (despite it enhanced their original Earthen intelligence...). Just a suggestion, because afterall, the Well is a creation of the titans, and the elves fled under "extreme pressure, stress and anger" :P -- Ravenore 17:26, 22 july 2007 (-1 GMT)

well they also started going out in the sun and got a normal skin color lol. but they did take some water from the well of eternity and made the sun well as a sourse of power. the high elves were now being influenced by a new type of magic which you think might have been weaker than there old (being the well of eternity). nut scince when did they actually get smaller? i think there relitivly the same size. i could be wrong about all of this... idk user:stormrage1313666

One other error I noticed, it says that the ice trolls are descended from the forest trolls, whereas the Troll Compendium on the WoW headsite states that they are descended from the Zandalari. user:Nicholas

Tauren

I got it ! The official genealogic tree for the Tauren ! Here it is.--K ) (talk) 04:19, 1 October 2006 (EDT)

>_> -Kinst 15:53, 13 November 2006 (EST)

What ? Ain't that funny ?--K ) (talk) 15:56, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Yeah. Just very dirty. -Kinst 16:01, 13 November 2006 (EST)

nice!!!☺ what if it all started with a tauren and then it split thru binary fision and created a human and cow!?!?!?!?!? perhaps they are like gods to you pathetic humans... and cows user:stormrage1313666

Human/Dwarf Lineage

The problem with the theory that humans came from an unknown Dwarf faction or even from troggs is that they, according to the Human page on this site, existed before the Well of Eternity erupted... but the Dwarves came after it erupted... so, there's a problem here... --GeekOfDeath

Very true. Azotha(primitive humans) existed alongside elves, earthen, trolls before the sundering. - .Baggins 11:45, 18 November 2006 (EST)

Never heard that theory before. I've heard one about azotha coming from earthen directly, maybe you got confused between them. But now it seems that they are related to vrykul, and the vrykul were another creation of the Titans. Jormungand01 (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Azotha

Speaking of Azotha we don't know much about them other than they were war-like and their culture was almost like the trolls. Nor do we know what they look like exactly, though its implied they don't look much different than they currenlty do. There is a possibility that some Azotha still exist in modern times, and there is a hint of a lost tribe or at least ruins in Stranglethorn(discovered by the Explorer's league, in Lands of Conflict). Now if you really want to be speculative there is possibility that the tribe that Night Elves decended from was possibly Azotha, rather than trolls.Baggins 12:01, 18 November 2006 (EST)

We can start speculating that the old azotha came from vrykul branch. They are half giant half... well, "human". Perhaps after centuries, the azotha come to being like lesser vrykul after being isolated on a more warm continent, lost height and muscular mass and all that evolutive stuff regarding the size of the body and to live on the cold northlands :S See those http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/images/artwork/ss5.jpg http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/images/artwork/ss6.jpg -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 21:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiosity where does it say what the other half of the half-giant is?Baggins 07:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Seeing the early cultural similarities, I think it may be possible that the Azotha evolved from trolls. Both were bloodthirsty hunter-gatherers, and Azotha civilization originated in what is now Stranglethorn Vale, homeland of the trolls. This may just be my opinion but Azotha even sounds like a troll name, as does Arathi (note the similarity of Arathi to Amani, Gurubashi, Drakkari, etc.) Perhaps the early kings of the Azotha were even named Jin'Zotha. Julzwinfield 07:09, 02 October 2007 (UTC)

Another Thing

Also, Shen'dralar elves are missing from the Troll lineage tree. They may be Night Elves, but they're non-mutated highborne Night Elves that practice magic. Certainly they need a place for themselves. --GeekOfDeath 11/20/06

Um, no. In fact, making a difference between Highborne and Starborne is quite racist, because it implies that they are not from the same species. They belonged to different castes, and the racist theories of the Highborne and Queen Azshara have led to what we can now call the "War of the Ancients", thus to the Burning Crusade Warcraft's World has been so rightly named after.--K ) (talk) 16:30, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Purpose

What is the purpose of this article? Majority of it contains information that isn't speculative, just to show source, but isn't even used to explain the speculation. That stuff particularly, should be (and is) in its respective article. The speculations, should also be in their articles too, or a sub-page of the respective ones. Even if you wanted to group up these speculations based on what they are about, this articles name is incorrect for it. Even then, they should have their own articles and Origin of the races speculation should be it's category..

So i ask the question.. why does this article exist? It has no purpose to justify itself.

I'm going to start moving some of the information here were it belongs, but i won't remove this article until after that is complete and people comment on why they think it should exist. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:25, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Yeah, I agree the non-speculatory info should really be on the articles about the race itself.  Kirkburn talk contr 09:57, 9 January 2007 (EST)

I was talking about the whole lot. Plenty of speculation here, but no explanations for them, things that could be written as one sentence on the race articles they are relevant to. :p --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 22:52, 9 January 2007 (EST)

The existence of this article, along with some of the same information refrenced in other articles doesn't hurt anything. Especially when it it discusses 3-4 races that may be connected and how they are connected together. You can't have a wide ranging article covering disparent refrences covered in more than one article. Especially where they wouldn't fit well in those topics.Baggins 23:14, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Well i've talked to you on aim about it, but i'll rexplain myself here. This page, cannot contain all theories on the origin on the races. The in-universe speculation belong in the race articles themselves (troll-elf lingeage), though if they span a great deal of articles (3+) or are too large to (more than a paragraph), they probably deserve being mentioned then linked to on a seperate article for them, instead of being in relvent articles. Fan speculation on the other hand, should only be mentioned in the relevent races articles, under a speculation section, and then a link to the theories, explaining their details and allowing discussion of them in their talk pages. These theories are not explained here, nor are any of the official ones sourced. They can't be explained here, and they can't be discussed here. That's not feasible. I would like to see you manage to fit 10x User:Zeal/Lore Theories in here, plus the discussions on them. Each theory needs their own article, simple as. This article just tries to encompass too much. It's like trying to contain all quests in one article, when each quest really needs to be it's own article and then grouped in a category.

So i repeat, this article has no reason to exist. I'm still going to be copying most of this information and sourcing it in articles where they belong as i said.. Certainly won't be deleting it until i've completed that though. --Zeal (talk - contr - web) 00:03, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Dark Iron Dwarves

One thing I noticed was that in the origin of the races, the dark iron dwarves are nowhere to be seen. At least in my opinion, they are fundamentally different enough from normal dwarves to justify adding to both the picture chart and the text. I mean, if you are going to add blood elves, there is no reason why you shouldn't add the dark iron dwarves.

yah blood elves are awsome... kinda. actually only the ones that follow illidan and kael are cool in my oppinion

sign your posts, but yeah dark irons deserve a spot IMO.Xlel 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Undead Gnome

I just found out that the Surgical Assistant's that you call "Undead Gnomes" really are Leper Gnomes that have been a bit more mutated. Look for yourself: --Oscararon 09:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)

...No, official word that they are "leper gnomes" as far as I know. Although yes they are humanoids. That is we don't how those gnomes ended up the way they were... True leper gnomes are limited to radiation victums in gnomeregan. If these surgical assistant's were plague victims on the other hand they wouldn't be leper gnomes.Baggins 10:13, 5 March 2007 (EST)

They look more feral than diseased/leper imo, but that's rather irrelevent. It's like a trogg got it on with a gnome, lol --Zealtalkcontrweb 11:15, 5 March 2007 (EST)

The third one is an earlier leper gnome model. Is it in-game?--SWM2448 17:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

ya, in naxx.Baggins

Eww.--SWM2448 17:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

move

don't move somethign this big without a reason. also why move it? it's name was exactly what it was. RESKAR^(Contr)

Draenei/Troll speculative lineage

There's some more information. Any thoughts ?--K ) (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

mmmm beastiality --Adonzo 17:15, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Nah, looking at the ears, I think it's more likely that the Troll ancestors were Night Elves and not Draenei. But in either case, it's still gross. It's like having a Gnome doing it with a Mechanostrider. Mr. peasant 18:28, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Peasant, that's a very odd thing you've just said. We KNOW that the Trolls were more ancient than the Elves... Get a clue of what you're talking about by looking the article before.

And besides, the horns could've given elekk ears the length of Troll ears, with a limb-mixing mutation. And look at Draenei ears, they're also pointy.

And finally, a kinky Gnome could maybe "do it" with an organic being, but definitely not with a machine...--K ) (talk) 10:59, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

The reason I chose Night Elf instead of Draenei was simply to poke fun on the whole Trolls are related to Night Elves debate by reversing the relationship. The Gnome bit was meant to show how disturbing it is. Somehow, inter-species hybridization feels wrong when one of the races involved isn't fully sentient. And if you want to speak from a lore perspective, should I mention that the Draenei and Elekk have only recently come to Azeroth? Mr. peasant 11:57, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Nay, the Draenei have been playing around with space and dimensional traveling ships for twenty-five thousand years now... And as they're able to find a decent stop even to crash, imagine how they pleased themselves when they could use freely the Naaru ship. An already born primitive Elekk/Draenei hybrid creature could've hopped on the ship to flee his taunting comrades... And have founded the Zandalar civilization on Azeroth.

However this just intended to be fun, and I'd be, though pleased, astounded if it proved true.--K ) (talk) 12:38, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Holy humping gnomes! Hope Metzen is looking to other way <.< Boy... I do preffer to think trolls descended from a creature created by the Elder Gods, then mutated ad libitum by titans just to spice a bit the land of Azeroth. Anyway... This is like to say trolls are draenei but just with the horns stuck into their mouths O_o (this theory cracked me up, lol) Ravenore 18:26, 22 July 2007 (-1 GMT)

DUDE elekk+ dranei= hot steamy sex party!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stormrage1313666 (talk · contr).

Um, mind reading this? :D--K ) (talk) 17:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, to reheat the debate, sentience is defined as being able to feel and have senses, such as seeing, hearing etc. that would make elekks sentient, but still making draenei+elekk disgusting. Sliver Slave 02:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Silithid

I just wanted to ask what you folks think about this alternative theory of the Silithid/Aqir relationship and evolution:

The Aqir existed independently of Silithid and independently of C'Thun. When C'Thun decided to create avatars in his image, he created a new race (later to become known as the Qiraji) which was absorbed into the Azj'Aqir empire. When the empire finally split, C'Thun remained in control of the Qiraji, while the Nerubians went their own way and eventually ended up in Northrend after the Sundering.

See, there's one thing that really bothers me about the other two theories - if we accept that the Aqiri were, in one way or another, a creation of C'Thun (as both of the theories suggest, from what I understand), then I don't understand why C'Thun would have ever allowed the split of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-Nerub. The conduct of the Qiraji during the War of the Shifting Sands and their sheer determination (as evidenced by them working for thousands of years to build an army capable of wiping out all opposition to their rule on Azeroth) suggests that C'Thun was able to dominate a race/nation he controlled with relative ease. If he created the Aqir, then he would have naturally been in control of the Azj'Aqir empire and would not have allowed it to split into two factions (why would he lose half his potential army?)

Another thing - there are clear differences between the shapes and appearances of the Nerubians and the Qiraji. One way to explain it is through the ensuing process of evolution that forced the Nerubians to adapt to living in the harsh climate of Northrend (as well as by the possibiliy of C'Thun's continued tinkering with the Qiraji to perfect them as a warrior race). However, an alternative notion would be to assume that the Qiraji and the Nerubians were biologically different from the start (the Nerubians having evolved naturally and the Qiraji have been created by C'Thun). Thus, the Nerubians are the descendants of the original Aqir. Such differences would also justify the dissolution of the Azj'Aqir empire into Ahn'Qiraj and Azjol-nerub.

Well, that's about it - let me know what you think!

G C 15:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

gnomes

anyone else think the gnomes are kinda pointless... no offence but they all the sudden appear to add a new race to wow. i mean they could have done somthing they allready had... pandaren for instance (cuz pandas kick ass). but i just find it odd that out of no where come a race of beings smaller than the dwarves and all the sudden they just assimalate into wow history. user:stormrage1313666

What?Is there a problem with us?-- Airiph/T/C/B 22:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, if WoW can have blood elf paladins, gnomes aren't remotely a stretch. Besides, the goblins needed someone their size to fight with. I think draenei were added so tauren have someone their size to fight with. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:53 AM PDT 2 Nov 2007

Your first point was about WCII, the second was about WoW. Goblins are not playable.--SWM2448 20:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh Heh nice sig Fandyllic.And gnomes were in warcraft.-- Airiph/T/C/B 20:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You do know that gnomes originated in Warcraft II right? They didn't just come out of "nowhere" like you said. They argueably had more screentime and involvement than pandarens.Baggins 06:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes and without us,our fat friends,the Dwarves would still have just discovered gunpowder and all that stuff. Airiph/T/C/B 17:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you're not a gnome!!!!

  Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am,Im a midget in real life so I could be a Gnome. Airiph/T/C/B 22:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not politically correct

  Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you,a politition? Airiph/T/C/B 22:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It can be taken as an insult.--SWM2448 22:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Being politically correct doesn't mean you're a politician.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 22:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Lol Im just kidding man,any ways,I dont act like myself on this site,mostly like my Gnome Airiph/T/C/B 22:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

WOTLK, Uldum, Ulduar, Iron Dwarves and Vrykul

We now know that the Howling Fjord area of Northrend is home to an ancient race of dwarves connected to runic magic, the iron dwarves. We also know it's home to a race of "half giants" called the Vrykul, and they were hinted to be part of the human creation myth. In addition, "Uldoom", presumably "Uldum" was mentioned as an upcoming dungeon in the expansion, and it is known that in the Storm Peaks area of northrend, a third titan vault, Ulduar exists. I believe the Vrykul will somehow link the humans to the titans, probably through the giants, anyone else have opinions on this? Omacron 06:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Dwarves & sea giants?

They look like each other, I guess. Is it only because they were both created by the Titans, who lacked imagination?--K ) (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Statues in Uldaman

I've been through Uldaman a few times and I don't remember the statues of Trolls, Tauren, Mountain Giants and Sea Giants mentioned in the intro of the "Elf and Troll Origins" section. Can someone give a link or post a screenshot of them? --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:51 PM PDT 24 Aug 2007

Okay, on further investigation this whole note about statues in Uldaman appears to be either bogus or misunderstood. There are no such statues, but projections from the Discs of Norgannon in Uldaman. Also, the races shown are not Trolls, Tauren, Mountain Giants and Sea Giants, but Earthen, Troggs, Dwarves and possibly Giants. So, in short, I'm removing these statements and the following ones because they appear to be based on a false premise. It sounded fishy when I first read it, but now that I've researched it, I'm pretty confident it should at least be removed until better evidence arises. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:11 PM PDT 24 Aug 2007

These exist in the model files, removing is good, but that is where this came from. Uldaman was supposed to be more elaberate I think.--SWM2448 21:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you think those statues will be appearing in Ulduar then?Xlel 02:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Rumors

I think I rather read it on WoW forums or found it on here, but I believe Trolls some how evolved from snakes and Gobs from Spiders. Anyone know about this? Rannulf 04:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No idea about the trolls, but goblins came from beings that acted like spiders. See Spider-eye goblin.--SWM2448 17:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Emerald Dream.

Kinda a wild idea but anyone think its possible? (Though enythings possible in Azeroth) That the "animal like" races could have came from animals in the Emerald Dream? Many came from ancient and destroyed portals to Azeroth? Ideas? Airiph/T/C/B 01:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean?--SWM2448 01:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Like all of the Animal like races originated from the emerald Dream.- Airiph/T/C/B 01:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Extinct ones sill exist there... --SWM2448 02:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Wretched

Maybe we could add the wretched specy in the Elf and troll origins part, as they are transformed blood elves. If not, we could at least add them in the Corrupted species part. Veher18 12:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would it be all right to add the fel elves from 2.4 aswell then?Xlel 02:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Add them!--SWM2448 00:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

A General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor

I have created a large chart in which I tried to include as many of Azeroth's sentient races as possible and some of the Draenor and Argus races that eventually migrate to Azeroth. They are organised chronologicaly and acording to their heritage. However, I have kept many speculative lines out. Also, many of the races are not acurately positioned due to the existence of little information on their origin.

Do you think it is useful?

And do you recomend any alterations? --Richeron 00:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please add new section to the bottom of the page. It is very useful, but we know where ogres came from (Gronn then the Ogre lords) and there is some repeat info.--SWM2448 00:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, sorry about that. I shall add the information about the Ogres soon. And I would expect there to be plenty of repeated information, considering that it is suposed to be a 'general' chart. Rather than give a vision of specific (and most speculative) lines, I hope that it gives a larger (and less speculative) vision of the evolution of species on Azeroth. --Richeron 00:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I think I only just realised what you meant by repeated info. Yes, I placed the races that migrated from Draenor to Azeroth on both, but they mark different things. The ones on Azeroth mark their arrival on Azeroth and the ones on Draenor mark their arrival or growth on Draenor. --Richeron 00:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: Added Ogre and Cenarius ancestry. Added Vry'kul, Iron Dwarves, Tuskarr. Also added possible ancestries to Elves, Azotha and Vry'kul. Corrected Ice Troll and Undead Troll ancestry. Corrected colours in Cenarius ancestry. --Richeron 13:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE2: Added a few more things and corrected others. --Richeron 21:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Weren't the orcs brown until they came to Azeroth and over time turned green? Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 04:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Er.. didn't I correct that already? --Richeron 10:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks pretty good! It probably does need spacing out a bit for clarity, but I really like what you've done. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE3 Added and corrected a few things. Spaced out some more. Still missing Dragons and there is still free space to space out the races some more. The possibility that the Azotha were dark-skinned has also been raised. Anyway, anyone know if this Chart is any good for this page? Or perhaps if there is a page where it might fit better? --Richeron 18:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Looks very impressive Looks like some hard hours ;-) But the harpys are only speculated to be the doughters of Aviana. Officially they are still cursed night elves. Also seeing the Eredar in that graphic would be cool. About the Dragons: We don't know much about their evoultion. I read somewhere that wyvern are related to them. But again: The picture is realy cool! --LemonBaby 19:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The picture looks awesome! You did a phenomenal job! Arator is as good as we're gonna get for half elves... unless you use Kalec's "unique" model. Just one question... Why are the undead human and undead elf connected? Are forsaken females half-elves?--Blayaden 23:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The Troll Wars was after the Sundering, the thing your thinking of is probably the time of The Twin Empires -Rovdyr 10:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that chart goes really well with this page. A few questions, why are there two Tauren species? You are probably refering to the Taunka, but neither of those pictures corresponds to a Taunka. Also, Highborne are missing in the chart. I've read some people think that is racist and Highborne are just a class, but if we think about it, Blood elves are a separate species from the High elves due to their consumption of magic, and they have been split for just a couple of years. The Highborne, specially the Shen'dralar have been split from the Night elves for thousands of years, and feeding of magic this whole time. Plus, this wiki classifies the Highborne elves as a different race (see chart of Sentient races and species). So this whole wiki considers the highborne a separate race, and I don't see why they should not be included on the chart. Other races missing, the Ogre Mage and the Treants. And the last one, MAGNATAURS, are the most amazing race in Azeroth, and although their origin is unknown, they deserve to be in that graph (possible origin, Annihilan or Centaur). --Huayanay (talk) 14:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. First, yes they are the Taunka, but no, they aren't real Taunka models, since I probably won't have access to them till WotlK comes out. You raise a good point on the Highbourne. I shall add them to my new chart. I shall also try to add the Ogre Mage. I have already added the Magnatuar to the upcomming version. As for the Treants, I'm not sure if I will add them, since they are closer to arboreal spirits than anything else. If I add them, there is a whole range of races I would have to include. There is only so much I can add. It's looking pretty bloated as it is! --Richeron (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Humans and Gnomes from Troggs/Giants? Seriously?

I came across this today, and I really think someone needs to look at this section ("The creations of the Titans"), because this is total fan-theory here. The justification used for Humans coming from Earthen/Troggs include:

-Rhonin being called a "tall dwarf" in the WotA books

-A made-up faction from the RPG books that happens to be able to use "Stone Skin"

-The word "Trogg" being derrived from "Troglodyte" which apparently has some connection to cave dwellers.

Gnomes are justified as being related to Sea Giants because "they kind of look like them."

The Gnome one is just rediculous, and the Human theories are very, very, VERY weak. The Rhonin one is just a matter of the Night Elves never having seen a human before. The RPG faction, aside from being relatively speculative whether it even exists, only has the connection that they can use Stone Skin. Since when is this ability necessarily 100% exclusive to Dwarves (and apparently those related to Dwarves)? The third one doesn't even make sense and has absolutely nothing to even do with WarCraft.

On top of this, there is a chart next to the section that pretty much says (with no "theory" tags) that they came from these races.

It's one thing to present plausable theories since the origins of these two races are a mystery, but these particular theories are very weak and not really supported by the actual lore. --WarlockSoL 19:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is explicitly for the exploration of ideas behind the origin of the races. We don't have a proper origin for the humans, so the dwarves are currently the best bet - some citations are better than none. I agree the gnome one is really rather tenuous, and could probably go. I've added "speculative" to the image captions, they should indeed have been there. Kirkburn  talk  contr 16:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Stone skin is said to be heritage from the titans. There are quotes that call gnomes and dwarves cousins though possible titan heritage. Books that say humans probably have a titan heritage as well. Actually it seems that human/titan heritage is going to be confirmed in someway in Wrath. Also as far as I can tell a sister of steel is only a class not a faction.Baggins (talk) 05:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't worry. Removed incorrect info (for gnomes), it pretty much only leaves the obvious and simple (and suprisingly well supported) answers anyway. -- 

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  19:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Rhonin was called a "tall dwarf" because the Moon Guard used spells to find out what sort of creature he was, and all the evidence showed that he was somehow related to the dwarves. As for the gnomes, they will have had to come from somewhere. Right now the giant theory is the best we have, and until Blizzard releases more information it will remain so. Jormungand01 (talk) 17:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, just seen the bit about Mechagnomes. Jormungand01 (talk) 12:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Humans and Gronn: We are family?

I am not sure if anyone has talked about this subject yet. I think that somehow Orcs and Humans, and any other hybrid species, must have had a common past. For instance Lions and Tigers are two different animals but can have offspring together. They are called Ligers or Tigons depending on which is the male and which is the female. Since there are half-orcs that exist, wouldn't that mean that somewhere Humans and Orcs had a common ancestor? The mystery would be how that is possible if they are from two different planets. An easier example to contemplate are half-elves. These are Human and Elf hybrids. This would support the theory that Humans and Elves were once one people. Also they both exist on the same planet. Another theory says that Elves and Trolls were once one people. I don't think they were since I have not heard of any "half-trolls" running around. Half-ogres exist and they are hybrids of Ogres and Orcs. It is also believed that Ogres descended from Gronn, and they both live on the same planet. This brings us back to the title of my entry. If Orcs are descended from Ogres, and half-orcs exist, wouldn't that mean that Humans and Gronn share a common past? Once again there is the question of the two different planets. That answer lies in the reader's thoughts. Rolandius (talk) 04:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I blame the titans personally. There seems to be evidence of their work althought a bit more subtle on Draenor. Humans, dwarves, and gnomes are all supposed to have titan connection. Also, you missed, half-human half-ogre.Baggins (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The Titans are starting to remind me of the Xel'Naga more and more. I wonder if the Diablo, Starcraft and WoW storylines are in the same universe but just different ages of time. Hey I just noticed the word Naga is in the word Xel'naga. I know the Dwarves are thought to have descended from the Earthen and the Gnomes from Giants. Since the Titans created the Earthen and Giants seperately I didn't connect them to Humans. I was trying to show more of a family tree connection versus influence connection. For example, the Titans probably had influence on the Dwarves, Gnomes and Humans. Currently there aren't any hybrid of those three races though. That is why I only focused only on hybrid evidence between Humans and Elves and then between Humans and Gronn. I was just showing that I don't like the Elf/Troll theory. I didn't put half-human half-ogre because ogres are allready in between Gronn and Orcs, but yes that is a good one too. I am not sure how to make those cool family trees I see on the Origin of the Races page. It would be nice to make my own version. One connection just shows a Titan next to some white dragon and underneath that the dragons we know today. I am not sure what the white dragon represents. Rolandius (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well there is Jessi Falrevere who is the daughter of the human Duke Falrevere and may have dwarven heritage. Also, note mongrelmen, more in species. -Baggins (talk) 08:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh I never saw that person mentioned before now. That is interesting. It may mean Dwarves are connected with Humans much more than I thought. The theory of the Earthen being the ancestors of Dwarves, Troggs and Humans is reinforced. I did see the mongrelmen page but it sounds vague and too general. If Humans are connected to Dwarves, that complicates my whole Human/Gronn theory I had. It would have to mean that the Earthen and Gronn are connected. Rolandius (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

While troggs and dwarves are certainly derived from earthen directly. You might want to avoid the idea that the earthen are the "missing link" to all other breedible races on Azeroth. Its is also possible that the titans just use the same base sequences for whatever the protoraces are for each of the the world's races. I.E. they each share the same uh "DNA" (for lack of a term) structure but were designed in different molds. So basically maybe troggs and dwarves evolved from earthen. Humans and vrykul maybe evolved from stone giants which are taller and more human like. But both stone giants and earthen are genetically (geologically?) similar.Baggins (talk) 09:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have read about the Vrykul. They are stated to be ancestors of the humans but "slightly evil". I guess the stone giants and earthen could be genetically similiar. They are also both made of rock like you said. It seems the Titans, who were made of who knows what, needed races that could work in extreme conditions, sometimes underground or near lava. They could have been used as soldiers against the Old Gods who used the elements of air, wind, fire and earth. Rolandius (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Vrykul aren't said to be the exact ancestors of humans but rather an offshoot from the same ancestor that humans evolved from. That is they both evolved from the same titan proto-being.Baggins (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, what is said is "And what these guys were is almost like the progenitors of the Human race in Warcraft lore. They were part of the Titan's early plans for creating a race that ultimately became the humans." [1] 3:54-4:06. If he hadn't said "almost like" they would be be direct ancestors of humans yes, but he did say it, so it's not known currently in what way they're related to humans. It's clearly very close, and it confirms that humans were created by the Titans, but nothing more just yet. -- 

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  23:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Draenei Lineage image

Requests being made for the rather outdated and speculative Draenei lingeage image. See Image talk:Draenai.jpg

Hmmm.. I could try redoing them all myself. Then they could all be visualy consistent with my general chart. -- Richeron (talk) 11:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While i like your one big image, the seperate ones make for easier reading and understanding as contextual images. Only suggestion i'd make to yours is if you could please label each race (perhaps just in small text under the model) so it's a little clearer with some of the more obscure/similar models which races you mean. -- 

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  15:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I did mean make the seperate ones. I agree that only having a big one can get confusing. As for labeling, that is exactly what I am currently doing to my latest version (which is actually a lot larger and more complete than the current one.) -- Richeron (talk) 16:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact vs. Speculation

A lot of the information on this page consists of speculation. But there is also a significant amount of information that is confirmed fact. How do we distinguish them? Wouldn't it be useful to restructure the page in order to make the issue clearer? For example, each race section could be divided in to two subsections: Fact and Speculation. This way it becomes easier for anyone to come to the page and take accurate information, rather than a mix of truth and wild guesses. Also, isn't it about time we start cleaning this Talk page? I get a huge amount of lag when I try to edit it. --Richeron (talk) 19:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Second General Chart of Races of Azeroth and Draenor

I present the second version of the General Chart I posted above. It is structured in a slightly different way, and includes many more races. The broken lines represent uncertain information and influence connections (in the way the Naaru influenced the Draenei). All criticism is welcome, so that I may correct any mistakes or imrpove any weakness.

--Richeron (talk) 16:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks awesome! Although, I think drawing influence connections is pushing it too much. I don't think it requires that much explanation, and it makes the chart look much messier. The harpies should be connected to the night elves, since they are either night elves cursed by Azshara, or night elves once devoted to Aviana, and of course if you decided to eliminate the influence lines. But for example, the Furbolgs, or Quillboars, you kind of do need some reference to their origin. Besides, you would need influence lines for the undead (Kil'jaeden) and green skinned orcs (Mannoroth). I would say keep the ones that are not too far away or making it look messy.

Another thing is, if you include the Nathrezim, why not include all the burning legion species. And the dragons, why not include the treants, and the Sporeling, or the other giant species. I think it's just a matter of what to put up. Maybe it would be even easier to split the graph in two, or even three, with species of Azeroth, Draenor, and Burning Legion. I might start working on that.. Oh, and Ogre Kings are actually called Ogre Lords (I think). Anyway, you did a great job. --Huayanay (talk) 11:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Why so much redundancy?

Why is there so much redundancy? In just three sentences you say "10,000 years ago". It is like saying "1+1=2. Oh and its not 3 or 4. Oh and here is the citation for that. Oh and the citation means this." Wow.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 03:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

By the way you are messing up the page. With all your edits, you are breaking links and disrupting the flow of the sentences.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 03:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm paraphrasing from several sources. Remember paraphrasing is preferable to copy and pasting quotes. Also the quote isn't saying "exactly 10,000" years ago. Context is important. The note adds context. Other people would be confused, such as you were to begin with... I haven't altered any links.Baggins (talk) 03:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It is common sense.LOL 10,000 years ago. Okay it doesn't say "exactly 10,000" years ago but it doesn't say "around 10,000" years ago either. You haven't alterted any links but you broke some and messed up some sentences.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 03:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Its called "paraphrasing" The sentences don't have to be exactly like the original sources.Baggins (talk) 03:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay why don't you just say "around 10,000 years ago". It is easier than saying "couldn't be too long before 10,000 years ago and couldn't be too long after 10,000 years ago".  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 04:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with Rolandius on this one. That first sentence is hideously redundant and needs a lot of work. I'll see what I can do. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote the first sentence to be more concise, but I noticed that the following paragraph contains pretty much the same information only with more detail. Someone should probably do something about that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well technically the second paragraph was Rolandius' redundant copy paste of Warcraft III/History of Warcraft Website that he added to the article. I added additions to it, established in other sources.Baggins (talk) 07:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I completely rewrote the elf section to remove the redundancies, as well as expanding on the night elven situation since the War of the Ancients and excising some information that was just flat-out wrong. I think I lost a few of the citations in the process, so feel free to reinsert them if you find any that are missing. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I cannot fix any citations even if I wanted since the page was "Protected".  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The page isn't protected - you mean an edit conflict? Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I guess there was an edit conflict, because when I tried to edit the page it said "Protected", no editing.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 10:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, you are correct - it was protected. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Not "wrong" perse, just an alternative legend/history portrayed throughout the RPG it seems. Before you argue on which is "more right" see, WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore.Baggins (talk) 08:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you really need more than 5 citations for one sentence only?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wait a second, the second paragraph was yours that you put in after seeing my information. I put the quote in because I knew you would say "cite that source". I added onto your paragraph after you threw in 3 RPG sources to show my WorldofWarcraft.com source was not "right".  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless it is in the RPG it does not count.LOL Really, if something came out today and it disagreed with something from your RPG what would you do? A) Replace the old information from the RPG with the new information. B) Leave your information from your old RPG in and put the new information "somewhere". C) Ignore the new information.

Let's hope you pick the right answer.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Turning purple and getting taller isn't in Warcraft III manual, nor is it in the History of Warcraft on the officialsite, and just vaguely saying "on the official site" is not a citation, an actual link is required. Also if you want to keep on attacking me, and accusing me of being "biased" I might have to give you some "cooling off" time. So calm down.Baggins (talk) 09:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What am I supposed to do when everytime I put a quote you tell me to cite it, which I do, but then you tell me im still wrong and I should calm down? I am not making this stuff up. Both the Warcraft III manual and the WorldofWarcraft.com site says thier skin turned different shades of violent and they grew taller in stature. What else can I say?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 10:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Which pages and what links? (If it's in the edit history, I'm not going to search). For the other question - is sources contradict, we post both versions. A limited amount of analysis as to which is more likely is possible, but we don't discard old info unless it is obviously intentionally superseded. Edit: by "discard", we still mention it, but say it's "old" in some way. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to make any admins mad since I know there are users who edit blindly. I don't know if this information is right or wrong, but when I see something relevant to WoW I try to put it in. I put the citation for the manual allready but who knows what ha