Consecration Aura RemovedEdit
- Consecration Aura - Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, dealing damge over time to any enemy in range.
This is not an aura. (It is an instant AOE DOT gained from a talent. It lasts 8 seconds.) Removing it, and adding Concentraion and Sanctity auras. --Slabgar 16:33, 21 Nov 2004 (EST)
- Since the release of Burning Crusade, Consecration is now available to all paladins regardless of spec. --PallyEleana 23:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Slabgar, I've only played a Paladin up to level 4, so anything you can add to it is great! -- Goldark 16:37, 21 Nov 2004 (EST)
After a long discussion with a longtime lvl60 Paladin yesterday, I was shocked to learn that Paladins are generally unpopular among the higher levels. Their healing is useful and I know they are popular for instances where they can do the tank, heal and resurrect work but they appear to be treated as a convenience for the other players, not a valued team member. By all accounts the Paladin class was good during the Beta but since the retail release, it is "broken".
The Paladin can only stun opponents who try to run away and the stun spell only has a short range. If you've already used the stun to give yourself time to heal, you're SOL as your opponent can retreat while you lumber after them. The total lack of ranged ability seems planned as pallys can't even use ranged weapons (I'd give up my shield for a ranged weapon any day). The quote-of-the-day from the lvl60 Paladin: "A Paladin can only kill someone who wants to die"
- This information is very badly out of date. Among more intellegent players (eg end game raiding guilds) paladins are considered invaluable. Their healing is on par with both priests and druids in terms of quantity, and their mana conservation is sleightly better (free crit heals and mana/5 based regen, as opposed to spirit based). Their healing is limited in two ways though, poor burst healing (Holy shock as opposed to swiftmend or PW:S) and no heal over time (renew, rejuvenation etc). As mentioned above though this is made up by the ability to constantly cast FoL and HL throughout the fight and rarely run out of mana. As far as the pvp comments go, they are also way out of date. JoJ rank 2 prevents someone running away at faster than normal walking pace and Hammer of Wrath is like a ranged execute (although the damage doesn't scale too well in the latter levels). And finally as far as your quote of the day is concerned : "A paladin can only be killed if he wants to die" --MrCeeJ 9 Feb 2007 (GMT)
"Too bad no one player of equal lvl and exp. can take a half decent pally."
Dude your totally on the point , paladins are getting bitched at all the time by people who dont appreciate their skills and as for the ranged weapon idea , awesome , I mean my views cant compare to a lvl 60 paladin as i am only a lvl 25 --Srbluman
- Heh, can you imagine Paladins with ranged weapons? We would be completely overpowered. Hell, as it is, no matter how many players spit on the Retribution spec (yes, prot and holy are welcome, but most guilds will not take you unless you respec if you are ret) I still come in second or first on the dmg meters in raids... Haha, I learned several new swears from the mage that day.
- Anyway, my point is that Paladins with range would completely overpower us - I mean, we already have means of stopping enemies fleeing, like Judgement of Justice (makes it so an enemy cannot flee), Hammer of Justice (6 sec stun), and Hammer of Wrath (can only be used if enemy is at 20% or less - hurls a hammer at them). And I'm fine with it the way it is. ~ Peregrine
Holy Warriors? Rather Priest in Plate Edit
Despite Paladins being traditionally known as Holy Warriors, Blizzard’s game mechanics have formulated them more of ‘Priests in Plate’. This has been disdainfully referred by many that the class should not be called Paladins, but Clerics.
Many started Paladins (myself included) anticipating to play a Holy Warrior, a strong character with combat moves, but also having the ability to heal. Reality kicks in post-40 when there is a significant lack of combat options. Play style of Paladins are limited to ‘auto-attacking’, i.e. clicking on a seal and hoping that effect procs. Paladins have no melee moves on demand, and are dependent on chance. Hence the creation of the acronym PROC (Paladins Rely On Chance).
This is not to say that the Paladin is not a good class. It has its strengths. A Paladin truly shines in a small group of 5-10 man, where it can deal decent damage, offtank and support healing. However, Blizzard crafted the end-game content to be centralized around 20- or 40-man raids which severely limits the Paladin’s role to being a cleanse-, buff- and heal-bot.
- I dunno. Healing wise they don't seem up to scratch with Priests, so "Priest in Plate" might be a bit of a generous term. I've never really gotten why people play Paladin... it seems like a bad warrior combined with a bad priest, to me. That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but let me put it like this; if you were running a party (forget what your own class is right now), and you had the choice between having a pair Paladins, or a Priest and a Warrior, which would you choose? Me, I'd go for the Priest and the Warrior every time... A Paladin's only strength seems to be that he's virtually impossible to kill, which would be good if he could just get some damn aggro first. (Darien Shields 18:56, 26 Feb 2006 (EST))
.......i agree with some of what you have said.... although we aren't as good as warroirs at tanking, or as good as priest at healing. but we arent awful at either. we're actually pretty decent but if we incredible at both then Nobody would use the Warr. or Priest classes because of the perfect hybrid . But the real reason i am editing this is because of this statement "A Paladin's only strength seems to be that he's virtually impossible to kill, which would be good if he could just get some damn aggro first." This is untrue, ( with a holy or retribution spec build) with the right PROTECTION build, a paladins holy damage can aggro mobs over 100% they also have a move called Righteous Defense that can pull up to 3 mobs off any certain team member. using the right buffs my 29 paladin can run an instance, and keep all aggro with the help of my AoE. i have no problem keeping aggro, i am not as good as a warr, but if needed i have the right biuld to be a Fairly Decent Tank.....i mean honestly, we can die like 3x and still be alive if we can survive long enough to bubble, seal of protection, and lay on hands. we are Very a Tough class, and not many can compare in a 1 V 1 pvp battle.
- It's been said once that "Jedi strength increases exponentially. Fighting fighting 2 is like fighting 4, fighting 3 is like fighting 8..." -Star Wars: The Approaching Storm (Novel) . The same can be said about paladins. Given time to spam out their buffs to each other, are practically unstoppable. Piroko
I dont agree with the statement "A Paladin's only strngth is that their virtually impossible to kill" I play a Lvl 52 paladin and some of our best spells dont even work on most people or monsters. A Paladin is only really impossible to kill if he as quite a few potions. We only have 1 stun, 1 fear, and lay on hands wont keep us going 4ever, remember, it does have a 20min cooldown. Apart from that, you might have heard the saying "a mage without mana is a dead mage", this qualifies equally for paladins. Since 3.0.2, pallys are much weaker because so many seals have been taken out. It used to take me a few seconds to kill an orc warrior in AB, now it takes me a few minutes with another pally helping. And Piroko your statement is only true for sensible pallys because most pally's will use blessing of might/greater blessing of might which no sense at all since our strength is to last, NOT to be quick for the kill. We'ere not warlocks. -Dracomace the Great
I agree that we are not "clerics" as it has been said, holy warriors do have relitavley good healing spells, but they cannot match a good holy priests. We should be up there doing DPS and tanking, priests have much higher mana than us, so therefore i think we should be spending our mana in keeping aggro or harming people, not healing. -Dracomace the Great
This needs to be updated Post-BC (7/20/2007). And please, nobody who is not a well geared 70 needs to add. +Healing gear has made Paladins the best single target healers in the game. I am in constant demand to heal in Raids. Paladins are now tanking any instance up to Gruls lair and where the social order accepts, beyond. We are still not DPS kings but we have enough to hold our own and be viable in grinding/5-mans.
As for no combat moves....HoJ...SoCr..Judg...SoRight...trinket...Avenging wrath...Consecration...Holy shock...judge SoRight...HoJ(with equip and talents its a 35 sec cooldown)...Your dead.
Comparison to Warrior was unfounded Edit
Comparing paladins to a warrior with heals is a bad analogy. Blizzard claimed the same thing initially, and it's this disconnect that has made a lot of paladins unhappy. Paladins are more like a very durable priest with blessings that has the option to engage in melee combat. I think claiming paladins are similar to warriors does the reader a disservice.
I agree the only trouble i really have against in PVP is mages and warlocks only because of there abilities. I think paladins are better then warriors because paladins can be back up healers and tanks example: you have a warrior and a paladin plus lets say a druid, shaman, priest take your pick the main healer runs out of mana you can back off from helping the warrior tank and start being the healer till the main healer gets mana back. paladins are a win win for me.
Once again this needs to be updated post-BC. Paladins were so powerful in PvP that we now have had nearly continuous nerfs. I have been beaten by Paladins doing DPS with a Shaman Healing! Very, very fun.
Seal and judgement sequencing Edit
I see some auras in there, along with blessings. If there's any aura or blessing, they should appear at the front, unless you want one particular blessing at once, and then to replace it later. It just doesn't make sense to have Might midway through the sequence unless you have another blessing mentioned before it. Similar situation with auras.
Basically, I think the whole thing is written very poorly, and could be a little more legible in an outline format perhaps, and maybe some (better) explanation as to why you'd cast it in a certain order. I concede that I didn't read through it very well, but from what I did read, it was all poorly written. Could someone rewrite this or explain to me why it is written the way it is? Schmidt 15:00, 22 March 2006 (EST)
Point taken. The auras and blessings are there because I was considering a sequence that will end with the optimal setup starting from nothing. The two conservation methods imply long fights and baring any specific consideration for enemy spell classes (i.e. fire or frost) the concentration aura is more generally applicable. The order only matters in regards to the seals and judges. The blessings can go at any time but getting the target judged as quickly as possible seems paramount so I put the blessings at the end. --Klarn.Crushridge 18:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)
End-Game Expectations Wrong Edit
The section titles "End-Game Expectations" has a bluntly incorrect statement in it.
Paladins cannot decurse. Poisons, Diseases, and Magics we can remove, but not curses. I'm not end-game yet, but I know we can't remove curses, so it wouldn't be expected of us.
- Decursing is a term used to define dispelling any debuff, not just curses. --[User:Adonzo|Adonzo]] 00:04, 24 May 2006 (EDT)
"I am not in end-game yet"????? Then why are you posting? There are fights in Karazhan that specifically require a Paladin(Moroes/Maiden of virtue)
This part is complete garbage.
This whole article needs to be updated post-BC by people who actually play well geared 70 Paladins.
""I am not in end-game yet"????? Then why are you posting? There are fights in Karazhan that specifically require a Paladin(Moroes/Maiden of virtue)" First sign your post, secondly he posted as he spotted as mistake as pally's can't dispell curses no matter what level wether he is end-game or not you can look through a trainers list of abilities and see none of them let you remove or dispell curses. Joeking16 18:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Technically, he is correct. Paladins cannot remove curses, and the term "decurse" is misleading. To all others posting here, remember to sign your posts and please indent your posts using the : key. I can't tell where the original post ends and the reply begins. ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 20:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)70
- Who gives a d*** if he's not 70 and raiding Kara if he's only pointing out that Paladins can't remove curses? Is there something in Kara that says Paladins can't remove curses that isn't said anywhere else in the game? Felindre
Who gives a d*** whether or not he's
The Team Player Edit
The issue of the Paladin runs into PVE vs. PVP. The reason many Paladins cannot kill in PVP is because they're speced for PVE, because no raid wants a PVP speced Paladin.
The interesting thing I find is that Paladins do well in 3 things.
1. Solo PVE, here we kick ass if speced right. The level grind to 60 is fairly easy. Most of the way we're able to take 2 or more mobs at a time or if not have the ability to get away fairly easy.
2. Group PVE, with all the abilities at our disposal we're an excellent addition to any Party. A switch of an Aura and a switch to Shield and One-hander and we can off tank. A switch to some INT gear and we become a decent healer. A switch to some STR gear and a 2 hander and we can do some decent Damage. Along with our Buffs and heals and Blessing of Protection, we can turn the tide of any battle.
3. Group PVP, same as with PVE in a sense with our support abilities. What many people don't realize is that you cannot just put one Seal up and expect to do well, you have to constantly switch them up for be affective. If you're fighting a caster or chasing a runner down then get Seal of Justice up for the chance to Stun. If you see a team mate trying to run with a slow down effect, cast Blessing of Freedom on him. If the Horde try to kill you first do your best to survive. In the meantime you're allies will be killing them. If they don't try to kill you then Attack them and keep your friends healed. It's a win win situation.
In most cases it's not an issue of Paladins being underpowered we're just a hybrid class, We can't be the best at everything. But the one thing we can be the best at is being a team player.
- In every game, hybrids stand out by offering a special feature no other class has. In this case paladins may not be the best healers or tanks, but their blessings and auras make even an afk paladin usefull. --Stfrn 11:06, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Seals and Judgements of Wisdom and Light Edit
One thing I've never been clear on is the proc rate for these. Are they a fixed ppm, or do they have a fixed proc-per-hit chance? If it is a ppm, how does that work with multiple attackers?
I've looked around a bit, but mostly everyone (myself included) seems to assume that they're some fixed pph rate - I haven't seen any tests done to see if, for example, a faster weapon will proc a Judgement of Wisdom more frequently.
Also, the section under Mana Conservation seems confused - a Seal of Wisdom give you mana when you *get* hit, not when you hit something else.
- The judgements are a straight % chance on hit. Thusly a player dual wielding, with fast weapon speeds, using various speed increases, will see many heals from JoL. And a faster wand is better for JoW.
- Seal of wisdom is correct, you gain mana when you hit a target.--Stfrn 11:06, 2 November 2006 (EST)
How I Play My Paladin Edit
I guess I play mine a little different than everyone else. I play mine (in Group PvE) as an off-tank/off-healer (level 19). I help where I can and do what people ask of me. I have all of my talents in Holy. Whatever the situation asks of me, I am there ready to take the challenge. In Group PvP (Warsong Gulch) I basically do the same. I see someone fighting an enemy, I heal them, buff them, and get in that fight to finish off the enemy. I see something that needs doing, and I do it. That's how a Paladin should be played. You do not excel in any one area, so you do your best in all of them. Seems to work out for me: I usually have the least deaths of my teammates at the Battlegrounds. Henkman 22:08, 18 September 2006 (EDT)
That may be how you play, doesn't mean it's how people should. Being level 19, you probably haven't had much experience with instancing (VC is really hard, ain't it.) Try healing primarily for ZG in green, it works. Try to be a little more seasoned before you go and write up a template for how people should play. Tolu 00:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
- There are probably hundreds of variations on how to play a Paladin. Some prefer to live in PvP, others, like me, go for a more, "kill as many as I can before I am inevitably ganked into oblivion" mentality. It would be impossible to list every way to play all 3 specs. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 00:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Moving Sections to other pages Edit
- Move the Seal Sequencing section to the Tactics page. Sinces its more "howto" than "howdoes" I think it should go.
- Move tips to tactics
- Move End Game to Tactics
- Move Gearing up for MC to tactics
Sharlin 10:56, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
Page Vandalism Edit
- Paladin's page has been vandalized, all references to Paladin has been changed to "Useless Freaks".
- A lot of helpful links, and how too's have been removed.
- Obviously a very childish immature WOW member
- Someone upset with his own character not being able to match the paladin's skills
- Probably someone with a character class inferior to a Paladin (Horde)
- We should keep a constant eye on this page and get the backup copy re-posted. There is a lot of useful info in this page that has helped many of us excel with this versatile character.
- Remember, blood elves are coming if you ever intent to start a horde paladin you will need this page, sad but true, a horde relying on alliance knowledge to play a new character.
- Oh by the way, I hope whosever vandalized this page is reading this post, its just too bad that you have come here and try to "beat/gank" paladins outside the realms. Don't be a coward like all rouges out there and stealth your way into a public page, do some damage and then at the sign of danger stealth our of harms way. If you have a POV (point of view) please refer to the discussion pages and make your self heard. It's ok to rant, but please don’t destroy the info that many of us have work hard to post to help others play the game. Keep the hate and release you anger in the game.
Eternalyalive5:37, 2 November 2006 (PST)
- Next time you see vandalism, check the page history to see who did the changes, and then report them on the Known Vandels page :)
- If only one vandel has edited the page, and no one since, it's trvial to view an older vesion of the page, and save it as the current version, but do that only if is nessecary.--Stfrn 11:06, 2 November 2006 (EST)
End-Game Expectations Edit
End-Game Expectations, should be split off from the paladin article, and moved to its own page, with a "guides" category attached to it. -08:12, 4 January 2007 (EST)
- i see this has been suggested before though.. - 08:13, 4 January 2007 (EST)\
I think the first part of it needs to be removed for being expected to heal is not an end-game expectation. That really may only apply to 5-man PUG's. No guild who knows what their paladins are specced and running end-game 10-man to 25-man instances is going to expect a protection or retribution paladin to heal. Paly 1 20:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The latest version of Decursive is alive and well. While it doesn't auto-clear debuffs... it works very nicely and is very light-weight in the UI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yithnal (talk · contr).
- While it maybe be true that Decursive the addon still exists, this article refers to an addon that on click or keybind selects target and decurses them. The new Decursive you have to click on an actual button. It works, but its not the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buttink (talk · contr).
- Indeed, I no longer use Decursive, it's pretty defunct of any use. Creating a simple Mouse Over Macro will work just fine, especially with a Raid Display like OzRaid, where it will display who has a disease/magic/poison you can dispell, simply mouse over there bar and hit your macro - bind it to a key and you have spammerific dispelling right there. 04:39, 20 April 2007 (EDT)
Paladin primary stats Edit
Hey, this article is missing which stats are most important for a Pally. For example, the primary Mage stats are "Intellect, Stamina, Spell Damage, Spell Critical Strike rating, and Spirit (the order of importance varies with the player's role)." I don't play a Paladin (yet), so I don't know. :-) --ComputerSherpa 02:51, 23 April 2007 (EDT)
- I added a section on that: Paladin#Paladin's primary stats. Hope it helps, and more, I hope it's correct enough to be agreed upon by others. Schmidt 20:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Please folks, if you're going to try to edit this page, at least spell the class name right. It's not "palidin" or "paladen" or anything like that.
- Thats correct...its pallyden. =) User:Coobra/Sig3 21:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The BE paladin lady in the picture has a sword. Does anyone know what its called? Mr.X8 00:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Fat trimming needed. Edit
- Paladin Abilities go in paladin abilities. That page is there. We don't need half of this page taken up by a list of each and every blessing, seal, spell that they have to offer.
- Paladin tips probably don't belong here. Better to integrate these tips into other articles where they belong.
- End-Game Expectations needs a long overdue makeover.
Pzychotix 17:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd also appreciate a better color for the tables. This is the only class-based article where the tables are not in the nice blue color, but pink. Looks quite dumb to me. --Tulon 20:30, 14 August 2007
- I'd appreciate a suggestion as to what color should be used. Personally I like the idea of class colors used in appropriate tables. If no one else agrees, that's fine by me. I don't feel like it's necessary, but it would be nice, imo. That said, anyone can suggest any color they want (preferably something in the realm of pink for pallies, maybe a darker color). And if everyone thinks that idea sucks, by all means, say so and we can revert to the non-class colors. And as far as that goes, I was hoping to develop appropriate colors for all the other classes too. Schmidt 02:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's cool! 03:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Did you destroy my Retribution Paladin tips? It took me like an hour to write those! (:O meh I'll go into history and copy+paste ~Peregrine
Paladin as tank Edit
Drakesong recently made many changes in the article in which he shows that he does not think that paladins can be good tanks. We have killed every Karazhan boss with only a paladin tank, and he and the healers have no better equipment than T4 and self-made items. This way paladins will never get accepted as tank. The difference between a good and a bad tank is the player behind the character and not if he is a paladin or a warrior/druid. At least not since 2.1. Of course there are things that a warrior tank can do better than a paladin tank (like bosses that fear - Nightbane), but there are also things that a paladin tank can do better than a warrior tank (like Illhoof or pulling the whole CoT2 instance trash and kill it all together). Paladins are NO worse tanks than warriors or druids - at least not until Gruul (I cannot speak for later instances). --Nalumis 07:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- I have reverted the changes. 14:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- We have a completely unbelievable tank in our guild--Grihgmock. We can do Shattered Halls in 30 minutes with him tanking, and he can take on just about any boss in Kara. While it is true that some bosses need a warrior tank, a pally tank can be completely underrated.
- Firstly, please remember to sign posts. Secondly, I agree, Paladin Tanks are definitely viable. I still wouldn't want to have a pally maintanking nightbane or gruul, but they are extremely viable secondary tanks and very useful in 5-mans - in fact, I prefer pallytanks to warrior tanks in 5-mans.
- Please remember, people, neutrality must be kept at all times - this is an information source, not an opinion source. ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 18:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- We killed both Nightbane and Gruul with a paladin MT. --Nalumis 07:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Really? Well then give that Paladin a major thumbs-up from me.
- Don't misunderstand me. I should have said "on average" somewhere in my previous post, I mean on average retribution paladins ARE undergeared with crappy damage. There is the rare oddity like Orissa or whatever retpally it is that has full lightbringer (soooooo jealous), or the ones like me who put out good dps, or would if we had the right gear.
- My apologies, pallytank community :) ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 00:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In Real LifeEdit
Does anyone know what a real life paladin is? I'm guessing like maybe a medeival knight or something. Besides Warcraft and WoW, I have seen it in real life (Paladin Press, they work on magazines like "Guns and Ammo" and "Leathernerck"). Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 01:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- You have acccess to the internet don't you? You do know you don't have to ask us questions about real life, when you can google the information for yourself, right? :p...
- However, I feel like being helpful, from Webster's dictionary;
- Main Entry: pal·a·din
- Pronunciation: \ˈpa-lə-dən\
- Function: noun
- Etymology: Middle French, from Italian paladino, from Old French palatin, from Medieval Latin palatinus courtier, from Late ::Latin, imperial official — more at palatine
- Date: 1592
- 1 : a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
- 2 : a leading champion of a cause
--Baggins 02:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- I can shed some more light here: The paladins were the knights serving under Charlmange (and his forebeares and descendants) in the unification and early years of the frankish reik, which eventually became France. They attained their reputation as holy wariors since Charlmange was the one that stopped the Moors from taking France and so all of europe (the battle of Tours i think). If the moors would've won there would be no christianity today.
i heard on the forums a few days ago(ill try and get link) that Blizz wanted to make paladins "what they were originally intended to be". can ne1 verify this quote? and what do u guys (if the quote can be verified) think this means?
Dunnsworth 04:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Could mean anything from Bliz...Since both factions have pallys and shammys, both classes could essentially become more powerful, without having to change the other to compensate. User:Coobra/Sig1 04:52, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
- Having been here since Beta, I can assure you this means one thing: Paladins were originally described as "Holy Warriors". Goodbye Healbot, hello DPS Machine. =D ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 00:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Peregrine is correct. As one can see with patch 2.3.2 and now the patch 2.4 changes, Blizzard is doing away with spell damage completly on all BC retribution gear and replacing that stat with strength and critical strike stats. My current DPS damage is very good on the damage meters and with this new change I will make some other DPS classes very jealous in my guild. Paly 1 04:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also true... although in all honesty the new Lightbringer is geared waaaaay more towards Blood Elf SoB users than Alliance SoC users. Dam haste :'( ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 20:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Intellect is nearly useless to Retribution Paladins. Expertise is also a very large DPS increase until cap so it is a major stat for Retribution pallys. I have reverted both of these changes. I'm not completely sold on the Agility being a primary tanking stat. It is 25 points of Agility per 1% dodge for Paladins (at level 70) versus 18.9 Dodge rating for 1% dodge, making pure Dodge far superior per itemization point in terms of avoidance. I didn't change this until I get some real clarification. Flyingtoastr (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
How do you plan to use Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Hammer of Wrath, and Hammer of Justice with no mana? ie Intellect. A Retribution Paladins abilities are all tied to mana so to say Intellect is useless is stupid. When my mana bar is red and not blue then Intellect will be useless. Paly 1 (talk) 03:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Concerning the the agility for tankadins issue, of course 1 dodge rating provides better avoidance than 1 agility. (The difference is actually smaller than you might think with Blessing of Kings.) If, says, when we need to choose from a +8 dodge gem and +8 agility gem, the dodge gem is definitely better. But 1 agility (with Blessing of Kings) nonetheless provides slightly better avoidance than 1 parry rating, so it is misleading to omit agility completely as a beneficial stat for tankadins. WakemanCK (talk) 10:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, agility seems fine with me, you make a good case. As for intellect, it has been repeated over and over again that it provides almost no benefit if you are gearing intelligently. You need 16 Intellect for enough mana for one additional Crusader Strike, while that extra 16 Strength (for example) would have provided an additional 32 attack power (38 assuming Kings and 5/5 Divine Strength), which would have increased the damage from all your Crusader Strikes by 8.2 (9.8 assuming Kings and 5/5 Divine Strength). Intellect is a waste of itemization points. Flyingtoastr (talk) 03:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please refrain from changing the section in question until we can arrive at a consensus regarding Intellect. If you can provide one piece of evidence that Intellect results in an appreciable DPS increase point-for-point when compared to the other major stats (Strength, Attack Power, Critical Strike Rating, etc) I will concede. I am not looking for childish "I have a mana bar" arguments. Flyingtoastr (talk) 03:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Wow Toaster you are a piece of work. Are you always this grumpy and argumentative? Putting comments "I am not looking for childish ..." is childish in itself. Go take a vacation or get a girlfriend. You have a lot of frustation to take care of. Paly 1 (talk) 04:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not grumpy and I am happily married, thank you. Ad hominem aside, this wiki is based on fact, not assumptions that because you have a mana bar you are required to stack Intellect. Unless you can prove otherwise it is general knowledge that Intellect provides almost no benefit to Retribution Paladins in terms of sustained DPS when compared to real DPS stats (Strength, Attack Power, Critical Strike rating, etc.). Again, if you have mathematical proof that Intellect can and does increase DPS as well as the other stats then it is worth mentioning in the article. If such proof can not be found than it should not be included. Flyingtoastr (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
A lot of people ridicule Paladins as priest warriors or priests in plate. I guess that has to do with the way they are in the game. From reading the WoW books though it is stated that a Cleric is a warrior priest and that a Paladin is a holy knight. I think Priests just were normal people in historical views. The Cleric was a priest that could heal and defend against attacks. They, along with Paladins, would initiate new Paladins. Also when Stormwind was under attack they would be sent to defend the city walls. Due to the heavy lose of Clerics, Paladins were created. Paladins also had powers of healing but were skilled with weapons like warhammers. They were warriors of the Holy Light whose mission was to heal wounds sustained in combat and restore the faith of the people with the promise of freedom from tyranny. Rolandius (talk) 03:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Point of note even paladins have been described as warrior priests in lore as well. The term "paladin warrior" conjures that viewpoint as well. Sometimes paladins are described as "holy warriors". Its not surprising if you go back to warcraft II manual lore and notice that many clerics as well as knights actually became the paladins. Although on the other hand some descriptions of the clerics doesn't have them "warrior"-like but somewhat less powerful than actual "priests", with the priests being an upgrade to the clerics. Just read the description for "holy lance" from Warcraft I which describes clerics as not actually using physical violance (the opposite of what a warrior actually does). Warcraft II manual discusses that clerics were "...ill suited for combat." and the new order to replace the clerics had to be able to defend the people rather than just healing them. Thus they took up arms to become paladins to fix that problem. Also it should be noted that a knight is a "mounted warrior". Clerics are hardly brought up in the RPG other than past references to lore, but in one example cleric is used as an alternative title for the original rpg healer class (which was far from being a warrior). Sometimes cleric is used as an alternate description for just your average "priest".Baggins (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Now I've got a question, and I hope someone can answer it: Do Paladins, as they tend to be under the authority of the Church, qualify as clergy? I'm sure there are a fair few RPers who would like to know that, particularly if they're looking for an officiant for a wedding or other service. Tiraline (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
The references section is quite jumbled, and needs cleaning up.
In addition, I've been adding WotLK information recently released by blizzard. However, I am clueless as to how to insert references, if someone could help me out I would appreciate it. the reference is http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=10360.0
I have no clue about how to insert refernces. HOwever, I don't think that you should have put in the WotLK info into the endgame expectations section, as this content isn't even in WoW at the moment, and thus has no current practical value. THere was a section for what to expect in WotLK, so that should have been there, though it seems to be absent for some reason. Warden Shadowsong (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Please do not add anything to the Paladin page that is not in CURRENT game play. WotLK info for paladin changes belong in the future patch notes. And make sure you sign your changes by using 4 ~ Thank you. Paly 1 (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, I forgot to put my name in, always forget. :)None the less, at the top of each and every page since the beta started, "The NDA has been lifted; please add information!" Unless I get a good reason to not re-insert the information, i think it is clear that the administrators want the new info here. Dantheman102100 (talk) 04:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the NDA has been lifted. However, any info related to possible FUTURE game play is to be put in the WotLK articles and not in articles pertaining to CURRENT game play. I got warned once for doing the exact same thing you did (for I was new) from the administrator's and trust me you do not want to get on the administrator's bad side. Paly 1 (talk) 05:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- ...so instead of simply moving the information, you completely removed it? This is a wiki, removal of relevant information is tantamount to the unforgivable sin. I'm adding the information back but I will mark it out much more clearly as WotLK information. Dantheman102100 (talk) 14:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Sigh. :( You still do not get it. If you have information pertaining to possible future game play put it in the Wrath of the Lich King changes section (which is now a new addition to the page at the BOTTOM and was not there before) and NO WHERE else in the article. Information on the rest of the Paladin page is for CURRENT <---- (read that) game play. Paly 1 (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- I understand you perfectly, aparently you are the one who is missing the message "PLEASE ADD WOTLK INFORMATION TO TEH WIKI!!!!" at the top of every page.
- And fyi, I did put the information in the wotlk section. Actually take a chance to look at the article before you say I'm editing the article wrong. Kthxbye Dantheman102100 (talk) 16:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
No you did not. Go back and check. You had put it in the End-Game Expectations section. Which is for CURRENT game play. Had you put it in the WotLK section we would not be having this arguement. Paly 1 (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- "...Sanctified Retribution, increased casting and melee haste rating by 3% with Swift Retribution." Only sentence I added in that wasn't in the wotlk section. Every thing else was in the wotlk section.
- None the less, I was refering to the re-inserted information. All this is besides the point now that the information is back where it is supposed to be. Dantheman102100 (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Paladins as caster DPS Edit
Where in the world does this come from? I'd never take a paladin as caster DPS in an instance, and any who are should be ashamed of themselves. User:Gourra/Sig2 14:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- I put it in the Edit summary. Okay people are saying they read the Edit summary, then reverting my edits, then ask a question when the answer is in the Edit summary. That does not make sense. Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- It would be nice if people let me finish my edit. I got a "edit conflict" and I ended up losing my edit trying to juggle this page and the Tank page. This would not have happened if people just read, reread, and then made sure they read a third time the Edit summary. If people are going to read the Edit summary and then automagically forget what they read then why use the Edit summary box in the first place? The source is actually for the Tank entry I had done. The source for this page is wowarmory.com for the 10th time. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Rolandius... roll a paladin and see how many ranged spells you get that does damage to mobs far away. User:Coobra/Sig3 09:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- WakemanCK, it doesn't have a "page" like WoWWiki and it doesn't say "Paladins are caster Dps" really. It is part of the Armory on http://www.wowarmory.com/item-search.xml and it will let you choose any class and the types for that class. Right now it is in Beta so they have I think half of the classes only with all their types. What you do is go to wowarmory.com and then "Items". Under that you pick "Advanced Item Search". You have to hit "Show Advanced Options". Now you pick your "Desired By" class which would be Paladin in this case. Now it lets you pick a type of Paladin: Tank, Melee Dps, Caster Dps, or Healer. If caster Dps for Paladins is wrong then Blizzard sure is misleading since people use the "Find An Upgrade" feature using these menus.
- Coobra, I am a paladin. I am not saying paladins are the best caster Dps of all classes, and I got the term/idea from the Armory. Paladins do have ranged spells though. I am guessing a "critadin" and/or a "shockadin" is what they are talking about using colloquial terms. Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- I see what you mean. Ok, you are not totally wrong. Poor presentation still. The so-called caster DPS paladin means Shockadin in that case. However, Shockadin is basically a PvP only thing and has no place in raid. Instead of saying paladin can "caster DPS (?combination of trees)", I will add a sentence to clarify that Shockadin is something PvP only (at least up to now), so that newbies players won't read the articles and go to spec Holy to dps in instances. Concerning gear, healadins and shockadins basically use the same stats, except shockadins may want some hit rating and healadins want more mp5. Spirit has always been a no-no for paladins of any specs since TBC. Therefore, adding an extra column for shockadins seems redundant. -- WakemanCK (talk) 12:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Shockadins and Critadins can play as PvE if they want. Now if wowarmory has it split into 4 types why can't we do it? Some items are shared by healers and caster Dps, but then there a lot that aren't. That is why if you search paladins by "healer" and search paladins by "caster Dps" they do not give an exact copy of results. You might be using the "upgrading" feature as a healer and see a certain item that you wouldn't even see as a caster Dps and vice versa. Same thing with tanks and melee Dps. Sometimes they have items shared in their results but we have two diffrerent columns for them. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Rolandius, tell me how many caster DPS spells a paladin have and their cooldowns. Shockadins are not optimal for caster DPS. User:Gourra/Sig2 11:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- So how do you know what is false and what is not? This is against WW:NPOV. "Articles should not be edited to remove correctly cited details." I put correctly cited details and it was removed because "you don't like it". Blizzard says that Paladins can be caster Dps in PvE and PvP. Maybe they are the weakest of all the classes that can be caster Dps, but the fact is that they are in that category. Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly I don't care why they do what they do, a filter/search option is not citable. User:Coobra/Sig3 08:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Primary and secondary statsEdit
What was the reason for the removal of strength as a primary stat for a tank? It provides block value and generates more threat. What is the difference between "Mana regeneration" and "Mana per 5 seconds" for a healer or melee? Why is haste removed from a healer's primary stats? --Nalumis (talk) 10:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Some items say "Mana regeneration" and others say "Mana per 5 seconds". It is for people who might see "Mana per 5 seconds" on an item and think it is not good for their class because the column doesn't have that name and vice versa. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- They are one and the same. There's something called redundancy. User:Gourra/Sig2 11:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- MP5 is a better term than Mana Regeneration here, because Mana Regeneration includes Spirit, which is useless for paladins.
- Rolandius, sorry to say this, but your logic is naive and laughable. Please stop reading those stupid "official guide" that was written long time ago by Blizz's writers who had hardly played the game. Read forum posts or up-to-date guides written by dedicated players; Please stop browsing the crappy wowarmory items section that no one in their right mind would spend time on. Use wowhead.com or thottbot instead. Stop acting against the whole community now! -- WakemanCK (talk) 11:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Stop worshipping Blizz now. The fact that Blizz made the game does not mean it is perfect and correct about everything. Indeed Blizz made a lot of mistakes all the way, but this is understandable as WoW is a very complicated thing. Yet your worship of Blizz likes it is a god only showed people how naive and immature you are. -- WakemanCK (talk) 11:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
elitist jerk forumsEdit
- Good that you finally realize this, even though you are two years slower than everyone else. -- WakemanCK (talk) 11:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Blood Knight: "Holy Knights"Edit
Opening paragraph states, "Paladins are considered Holy knights." Are Blood Knights considered "holy" by blood elf society? I play a blood elf paladin and didn't really get the impression they were viewed so much as "holy" as simply using a different kind of magic. They aren't so much viewed with the reverence shown Alliance paladins so much as respect for their power. This may just be because blood elf culture isn't nearly as Light-centred as human, draenei or dwarf society, and blood knights show little to no reverence for the Light throughout the quest chain, even if they have repented after patch 2.4. But this isn't a forum so, to the point, should the article be revised along the lines of "paladins of the Alliance are seen as holy, whereas paladins of the Horde (blood knights) are seen as soldiers wielding divine magic." Strength and Honour, Horderoyale (talk) 04:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, this article was pretty much written from an Alliance point of view. Having been one of many contributor's to this page and an Alliance player I have never given much thought about Blood Knights. But you are sort of right. Alliance Paladin's are Holy Warriors not Holy Knights, as you mentioned, while Horde Blood Elf Paladin's I guess would be a Blood Knight or by reading the Blood Elf pages they, keeping with the Warrior naming convention of the Alliance, could be called Arcane Warriors. I went and updated it to reflect your keen eye observation. Paly 1 (talk) 22:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
- Though I share your point that blood knights are something different than holy knights, calling them arcane warriors just doesn't sound right. Still, paladins cast Holy magic, so what's wrong with the term Holy warrior?--Iggey (talk) 15:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- I was focusing less on the type of power they utilise, which is of course Holy Magic, and more on the fact that they are "considered Holy knights" in terms of their respective people; focusing more on the knights being "holy" than the magic being "holy". Blood knights are not seen as a sacred or reverent warrior of the Light so much as a new breed of warrior using a new breed of magic, whereas Paladins of the Alliance seem to derive deep respect and admiration for their dedication to the faith in the Holy Light. Sorry for the poor wording in my original post. Strength and Honour Horderoyale (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Though I share your point that blood knights are something different than holy knights, calling them arcane warriors just doesn't sound right. Still, paladins cast Holy magic, so what's wrong with the term Holy warrior?--Iggey (talk) 15:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Point of note Holy also refers to school of magic used, Holy, not necessarily the state of the caster. Blood knights do use Holy powers, rather than arcane. Also remember paladins even those of the blood knight stance do have the Holy talent tree. So to argue they aren't "Holy" when they do actually use the holy magic school is kinda of pointless. Baggins (talk) 18:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
This line doesn't seem right to me: "Paladins are also considered to be holy knights or blood knights." I see that the alliance would call their paladins "holy knights" but "Blood knight" is a paladin order, much like the "Knights of the Silver Hand" --Jubia (talk) 20:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed, I believe the wording for it is poor, but to call a blood knight, who typically show irreverence, disdain and condescension for the Light and its worshippers, a "holy knight" is just as inaccurate. I propose simply revising it to saying, "Many consider paladins to be holy knights", one can lump the Alliance, the Church of the Light, and any other pro-Light organisation under the "many," although it is not generalised in such a way to include the blood knights, who, although their powers are divine, are certainly not sacred, reverent, adherent to the Three Virtues, or in any other way heavy supporters of the Light as an object of worship. Strength and Honour Horderoyale (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with you Horderoyale in that by definition a holy warrior is a paladin who upholds all that is good and true in the world and reviles all that is evil and sinister. And by that definition blood elf paladins are not holy warriors or even holy knights. They do use holy magic and have a holy tree but it is the virtue which alliance paladins are considered holy warriors. They need a new naming convention for them if no one likes arcane warrior or blood knight. Paly 1 (talk) 22:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- (Since you guys seem to be too much into role playing...) "Upholds good and true and reviles all thatis evil and sinister"? Then where were the Knights of the Silver Hand when Silvermoon was being destroyed by Arthas and his Scourge Army? When the high elves asked for help, where was the Silver Hand? Sitting in their "holy than thou" thrones, passively letting thousands to die, maybe feeling nauseous of so much "evil and sinister" stuff destroying the city of Silvermoon that they couldn't even leave their palace. If the Silver Hand would really uphold the good and true, maybe the original Sunwell would never be destroyed, the blood elves would never have to use the fel energies and M'uru would never have to sacrifice itself. And, before any Silver Hand member come here to say "our king didn't order us to help", let me remind you of Voren'thal, who manage to take the Blood Knights into Shattrath and, in front of A'dal, recognized the wrong doings of our king Kael'thas and pledge alliance to the Sha'tar to help undo the evil that Kael'thas did. That's what's valor and honor mean. Jubia (talk) 05:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
- If you mean among players, no idea. In lore, one could argue that as agents of light, paladins conform to the typical flaxen or sandy-haired image of western heroes. In future, please direct non-editorial questions like these to the forums and not discussion pages. -- (talk · contr) 17:40, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
The Fate of Bolvar Edit
I am strongly of the opinion that publicly declaring the fate of Bolvar Fordragon on the Paladin front page at this time is an incredibly bad idea. This is the main Paladin page, not a lore or story page, and not exactly conducive to Spoiler Alerts. We are not talking about a minor detail, we are talking about the ultimate reveal at the current end of the story, and I don't think our purpose is to ruin the ending for everybody who may not be running ICC just yet (which is actually the majority of players). I agree, it should absolutely be included once Cataclysm comes out, when the fate of the Lich King and various others involved in this plotline is no longer the top storyline, but that point is still several months to a year away. Austinlwyman4 (talk) 19:56, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. I personally want to spread that information sparingly anyway, given that Tirion and those few he winds up telling are the only ones who are supposed to know in-universe.-- (talk · contr) 19:26, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
AD&D Paladins? Edit
I don't really edit, but..i'm noticing things inside of the descriptions that have alot of almost Dungeons and Dragon's feel to it, specifically lines like...
"A paladin must be of good alignment and loses all Light-given abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use their help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. While he may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil persons, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers or cohorts who are of good alignment. A paladin who violates this code, becomes an ex-paladin, and loses all Light-given abilities and can not train further as a paladin until he atones for his violations."
while its not word for word, anyone who's ever played AD&D would almost recognize that as pretty much out of the DM's manual or Player's Handbook.
I'm just of the mind that this could use adjustment, if not deletion. While a "paladin" may be these things in some form, basically ripping off TSR or WOTC and just stuffing this in the page seems incorrect.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sawth (talk · contr).
- Sawth please sign your comments using 4 ~. An editor named Baggins inserted the code of conduct in Jan 7, 2009 at 20:27 and he has been inactive for almost a year now. I would agree that the "code of conduct" does have an AD&D feel to it for it is from AD&D. The WOW dice roleplaying game is 100% taken from AD&D and that is where that code of conduct came from. The role playing version of WOW is nothing like WOW. Even the talents and abilites in the rpg game are AD&D. Anything that references wowrpg or wrpg should be removed and I think the code of conduct should be removed. Also, since the Horde are able to play Paladins the whole alignment paragraph is invalid as well. The whole section of Code of Conduct should be deleted. Paly 1 (talk) 02:48, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Paly 1, I respect your views, but according to the WoWWiki:Neutrality policy, WoWWiki accepts the Warcraft and World of Warcraft Role Playing Games as valid sources of lore, even if parts of them are based on D&D (with some minor exceptions). Also, half of what you removed was not from the RPG, but rather from a resent developer Q&A.-- 03:20, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
- SWM basicly covered it. THe removed section is from the Paladin entry in the main section of the book. It's an entry specificly about Paladins in the Warcraft setting. Even if all the information did come verbatim from a different setting, it was copied and published by Blizzard under "Warcraft". At that point there is really no room for discussion, all information is treated just as if it came directly from the Horse's mouth, thus a policy such as "Anything that references wowrpg or wrpg should be removed" is the antithesis to the existance of this wiki. Furthermore this wiki, while it is named World of Warcraft Wiki, is not exclusely about the MMO. THe name comes more from the fact that the franchise is more often refered to as World of Warcraft these days rather than simply Warcraft. In fact i believe the motto if someone wants to look for it is "a focus but not priority on World of Warcraft". I understand your edits were made in good faith and I can't say I am completely unsympathetic to your particular viewpoint, but this is the way it has to be for neutrality's sake. 03:36, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
Cataclysmic Mounts! Edit
The link to the page claiming to show draenei and tauren mounts doesn't immediately (some digging is required), and I think the section could benefit from some pictures of the mounts. --Sanaan (talk) 04:22, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
Is this removed material still valuable? Edit
I removed the following quoted material from the section about equipment on June 2011 because it is about abilities and not about equipment, "As of 4.0, Exorcism is a spam-able ranged cast. Paladins can also use Hand of Reckoning, and Avenger's Shield (if Protection) or Holy Shock (if holy) to pull, as needed. Righteous Defense can also be used as a ranged pull, albeit its mechanics are a tad different." It seems like valid material and so I put it here in case there is somebody who knows a use for it. Makeswell (talk) 23:30, June 14, 2011 (UTC)