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Rumored Races 2nd discussion archive Edit

What is Shamanistic Edit

Lets make sure this page shows the correct definition of Shamanistic.

Shamanism is a range of traditional beliefs and practices that involve the ability to diagnose, cure, and sometimes cause human suffering by traversing the axis mundi and forming a special relationship with, or gaining control over, spirits. Shamans have been credited with the ability to control the weather, divination, the interpretation of dreams, astral projection, and traveling to upper and lower worlds. Shamanistic traditions have existed throughout the world since prehistoric times.

Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits that affect the lives of the living. In contrast to animism and animatism, which any and usually all members of a society practice, shamanism requires specialized knowledge or abilities. Shamans are not, however, organized into full-time ritual or spiritual associations, as are priests.

We should agree to what Shamanistic means, so we don't just stamp shamanistic on everything. I mean, what makes Night Elves non-Shamanistic. For that matter, what makes Druids non shamanistic? --Xmuskrat 09:41, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)

If you start arguing like that, what makes any magical class non-shamanistic ? This is properly the definition of a wizard of any kind, except for the locations.--Kirochi 14:28, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)
I just want everybody to agree on a definition, it isn't quite an argument. Does Shamanistic mean that they used totems with their magic? --Xmuskrat 15:02, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)
Of the possible races here, I really think the only one that could really be considered shamanistic are the Quillboar, but even then, that could be worked around by Blizz seeing as they worship a (dead) traditionally druidistic god. --Kakwakas 15:04, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)
I'm not trying to pick what races are Shamansitc, I want to agree on a definition on what Shamanistic means in WoW. Cause I don't think we all use the word the correct way. I think most people confuse the term primitive for shamanistic.
"Like the furbolgs, Tauren and Wildhammer Dwarves, the Pandaren follow a shamnistic faith, worshipping the Earth Mother and giving passage to their dead. They are true geomancers, drawing their holy power directly from the Earth Mother."
Does worshiping the Earth Mother mean Shamanistic? Does using Elemental Magic mean Shamanistic? --Xmuskrat 16:38, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)
I think the WoW definition of Shamanism is along the lines of attunement with the elements (Since fire, earth, water, and air are the basis of their magical abilities). The use of totems provides the player with a channel through which they can draw the elemental energies from the earth, although not all shamans use totems, especially mobs. As far as the Earthmother is concerned, she is more of a universal deity. Taurens mention her all the time (shamans and non-shamans alike) so she is more of a cultural or societal figure than a religious idol.
Whereas Shamanism is attunement with all the elements, Druidism is an attunement with nature. It obviously involves becoming one with nature and connecting oneself with the life of the planet. Since Orcs, Ogres, and Draenei are from Draenor, it is logical to assume that they have absolutely no way of connecting with Azeroth, since they are alien to it, and thus are unable to become druids (a logical reason why orcs cannot be druids, yet tauren can). --Anticrash 10:59, 6 Jan 2006 (EST)


Unlikely? Edit

Furbolgs + Murlocs, both are "Shamanistic"

Furbolgs at least have some "neutral" or friendly faction in the game, Murlocs don't show much chance of ever being friendly toward either the alliance or the horde. it'd be crazy funny to see a murloc player with a baby murloc pet. but i doubt seriously murlocs have any "need" to go to the Outland.

Furbolgs have a connection to the Emerald dream(which might be added together with Outland), as well as a previous alliance to the Night Elves.

There are few Draenei left alive, but the last few survivors might have reason to ally themselves with someone, chances are big it's something nobody expects, and unlike what some people might think Draenei are "not" ugly..... The Mutated, and mostly unfriendly Draenei which you can find in the Swamp are not pretty, but at least in the north part of the swamp there are some neutral mutated Draenei already in the game.

Ferona.. or what she was called, and Rexxar, are both Half Orc, which might be another option.

CJ 10:34, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)

Her name was Garona.. and she and Rexxar are different kinds of half orc, she is half Draenei and he is half ogre.
I would say that the two highest contenders are Draenei and Ogres.. both make total sense to me and are the most obvious choices to join with the alliance. I have to say, I would like to see Draenei, but their stealth skills would be unbalanced, since the night elves already have shadowmeld.. so that would make the alliance a faction of uber-rogues, and I'm already sick of getting stunlocked and ganked by them all the time. I'd honestly have to say I'd think the ogres would be totally killer as part of the alliance, especially after reading that rumor about the Laughing Skull clan, or whatever its called. To see Khadgar and Alleria Windrunner leading a band of ogres? Priceless... --Anticrash 10:43, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)
Good reasoning. Add pluses and minuses to the rumored races. I think it's great if people can read down a single list of ideas, see everybodies points, and not have to read flames or insults in the process. Good information, ideas and rumors!
Rexxar is a half-orc/half-ogre, while Ferona is a half-orc/half-human. I think a half-orc/half-human might be a really cool alliance race.
--Xmuskrat 10:47, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)
Isn't Garona half-orc/half-draenei? Check out the page.
It is half unsure how the Mana leech ability on Blood elves will exactly work,, if it actually leeches mana, and allows silence effect you're likely to see a lot of BE Rogues as well. Draenei wouldnt need to have shadowmeld, but it wouldnt be impossible either. If anything we'll see them as a neutral race. perhaps +5% speed while stealthed, it would be a very rogue geared ability, i doubt the other classes would apreciate that.
i honestly doubt Ogres will actually add the alliance.. though it sure would give that " huh cool " factor. Its a real shame that the 2 headed ogre thing turned out to be an april fools joke from blizz. I read the story with the king of stormwind, and it does look good. The alliance could use a "big" race, but ogres are pretty much "huge" instead of big... hm, warrior, mage, warlock, definitely no rogues there.. 1 problem again, is that ogres are shamanistic. CJ 10:54, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)
It's okay to doubt it. We just want to make sure that every rumor gets its fair chance to be read. I wasn't a big ogre fan myself until I started reading about it, and now I think it might be nice. However, uncorrupted Draenei could be interesting -- nobody has seen those yet.
--Xmuskrat 10:59, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)
Have you guys noticed they but a dancing ogre on the MP3 music player from the official site? Maybe that's a hint that the new race will be ogres, since why would they make up a dance animation for a random mob? Then again it is pretty silly. Looks like the same dance animation they gave to druid's Moonkin form.
--Fandyllic 3:17 PM PST 19 Dec 2005
That dance has been around ever since the Ogre Suit & Dire Maul. Moonkin stole it from Ogres.--Valkors 21:39, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Lady Vashj Might be one of the bosses in Outland ( so i hear ), If the naga are indeed going to play a large role in the BC, who knows. they might get a revamp as well. unlikely they'll be a player race still, but you never know.

The Naga have to play a major role in BC.. they are Illidan's primary military force, and since he is the main boss of Outland, they will be the main bulk of the opposing force you'll have to fight through to get to him. --Anticrash 11:17, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)

Ogres are shamanistic too yes? At least i think i recall having some of them use totems against me CJ 09:33, 20 Dec 2005 (EST)

I don't recall ever seeing ogres use totems, but yes.. in essence they are shamanistic. I suppose it stems from past Draenor culture in which all races were shamans to some degree. If they were to become playable alliance however, I'm sure they'd adopt new forms of magic. Especially the Laughing Skulls.. think about it. They've been stuck in Outland with Khadgar and Aleeria and all them since the end of Warcraft II. Thats more than 15 years. You'd think in that time, assuming they've all been together since then, the human heroes would have taught the ogres a new form a magic. i.e., priest, pally, mage.. That way the ogres former shamanistic ways would have evolved into a higher power. --Anticrash 09:49, 20 Dec 2005 (EST)
Higher power? You dare speak of shamanism as a primitive, lower form of magic?!?  :)
--Bevans (FeldmanSkitzoid) 14:34, 21 Dec 2005 (EST)
Puh-lease.. Shamans are uber... but have you seen the type of shamanism practiced by ogres? I mean, really... they can't even use totems. They're so piddly. --Anticrash 14:39, 21 Dec 2005 (EST)

High elves : blizzard also stated they wouldnt want "yet another" elf race for the alliance. CJ 09:01, 21 Dec 2005 (EST)

Got a URL for a source--Xmuskrat 09:30, 21 Dec 2005 (EST)?
would if the blizz forums search engine actually worked.. but they dont. CJ 11:12, 21 Dec 2005 (EST)
You ever think they have an admin button called Break Forum Thread? --Xmuskrat 07:36, 22 Dec 2005 (EST)

On Draenei: Garona may not be half-Draenei. Metzen himself said that she's half orc and half "humanlike race from Draenor" and that we'll just have to see about her. Yes, that really sounds like Draenei, but, given what little we know about Draenor, it's quite possible that her mother (or father) is/was if another, yet unseen race. Caydiem, and the other CM's for that matter, may easily be less reliable that people take them for when it comes to lore. --Kakwakas 12:24, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

Blood elf mount Edit

Sunstrider_Isle , kind of gives it away. CJ 05:19, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)

I was pretty sure it was named after Kael'thas Sunstrider was the elven prince of Quel'Thalas, a birthright of being the last known surviving member of the Sunstrider dynasty. --Xmuskrat 08:51, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)

Actually Sunstrider Isle is named after Kael's father, who founded the isle. If I recall correctly, he was the High Elf King who established Silvermoon when they migrated to Lordaeron after being exiled from Kalimdor. As far as a blood elf mount is concerned, I'm guessing Stag. --Anticrash 08:55, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)
Stag would be great! I like that a lot. --Xmuskrat 09:12, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)
Still, the "strider" part, and include that with the picture (recently uploaded) what appears to be a strider creature in armor, like any epic mount. would make one believe that striders would potentially be a mount. The fact that an orc has it, could be that its just farfetched.. but still. one can speculate :) CJ 09:18, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)
Sure, we can speculate... but the 'strider' has nothing to do with the islands wildlife, nor the transportational methods of the elven culture. It is named entirely after Dath'Remar Sunstrider, Kael's father. Logically, he could have very well gone and established Silvermoon in some deep, dark cave under the sea and called it Sunstrider Abyss.. would you still say that there are 'striders' down there just because of the 'strider' in the name? If you look back to previous races, the names of their starting zones have zero to do with their mounts anyways.. I would say that the reptilian mount from that picture would be better suited for the Draenei or Ogre races (who I'm confidant are the two biggest contenders for the Alliance). Blood Elves, although connected to Outland, are still based very heavily in Azeroth, and would most likely have a mount native to their homeworld. --Anticrash 09:27, 23 Dec 2005 (EST)
Damn, men, don't you know, Dath'Remar is not Kael's father. He is ancestor of Kael and founder of Sunstrider dinasty. Kael's father is Anasterian Sunstrider. You have to read articles better. --Celebrin

I think the blood elves should have an all-magicial mount. Some sort of energy-based being. --Xmuskrat 10:21, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

It'll probably be some kind of dragonspawn or demon.. Dragons make sense to me since the dragonflights are supposedly taking an interest in the Sunwell to see if it can be replenished. --Anticrash 11:36, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)
That'd work. Since they are enslaving demons for magic, why not for a ride too? I like that. --Xmuskrat 12:04, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)
Ooooh, how about Darkhounds? Like, larger versions similar to Nightsabres.. They are native to Tirisfal Glades and the Plaguelands, so it'd make sense that they'd be found around Quel'Thalas... --Anticrash 12:25, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)
I thought it was unicorns. Seriously. At the lore panel at BlizzCon, didn't Metzen say something about unicorns being close to the elves in representation or something? Something about the unicorn symbol on all the elven ships, too. Unicorns FTW. XD --Kakwakas 20:34, 29 Dec 2005 (EST)
I think big Felhouds would be cool 14:59 wst 6 Jan 2006
I know this has been dead for a bit, but has anyone considered a land-based type of Dragonhawk? They were used by the Blood Elves in WCIII... (I know, like that means anything, but it seems like a good lead to me....) --Strawberree 13:46, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

Draenei Edit

  • Have no close ties to the Alliance
    should be italicized; if they're against the horde, I think that's enough. I'm not saying it should be positive, but it should be considered a weak argument. For one thing, while not knowing a lot of lore, I understand that the trolls are traditionally xenophobic, not liking any outside of their race. So the Draenei not being close to the Alliance doesn't mean anything to me.
    I wouldn't really consider this a negative at all, given that we've been told the alliance will be a questionable pact of convenience.--Aeleas 16:16, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)
Again, told by whom? "pact of convenience" This is a quote I hear and I can never find a source for. In none of the BlizzCon videos, magazine articles or blue posts. I can, though, find a reference to Metzen saying that the Horde is "an alliance of convenience." --Xmuskrat 16:27, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)
Not only that, but ALL races outside the Alliance really have no connection to the Alliance. So "no connection to the Alliance" isn't a valid argument at all. Apart from humans, night elves, dwarves and gnomes, NO ONE has a connection to the Alliance. --Anticrash 16:28, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)
  • Shamanistic culture
    should be italicized; shamanistic is not equivalent to evil or anything like that. Warlockery or whatever you might call it is more evil than is shamanism. Gnomes are noted as non-religious, so they don't have a priest class. Even humans have warlocks, along with paladins and priests and mages. So I think this is a very weak argument. Not to say it shouldn't be listed, but it certainly shouldn't be bolded. And for that matter, (unless it's confirmed and set in stone) there's no reason that the horde shouldn't have paladins, either, unless lore prevents it. Schmidt 11:49, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
It's more that shamanistic races usually go to the Horde, not the Alliance. Whether or not Draenei are actually shamanistic, however, is debatable. --Kakwakas 11:58, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
Hey, if the Draenei decide to break their alliance with Illidan, the Naga and the Blood Elves, that could mean they would also leave their shamanistic culture (if they have one), and if they are really shamanistic (I seriously doubt on that point), they could be a playable character without the shaman class ...--Kirochi 13:36, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)

The Blood Elves that joined the horde are not the same ones allied with illidan, blizz has announced that much. Illidan is going to be a raid boss in outland. If there are groups of blood elves not with illidan why not dreanei. though i feel my WC lore pretty well i dont kno much about dreanei, as i understood it they werent really shamanistic. but their hate for Orcs and connection to outland is understandable. But there is no doubt in my mind that the new alliance race will start on kalimdor. none will be in outland at the start. Though it wouldnt be hard to create a reason for them to be on kalimdor, it is a minor strike against them in my book.

What the hell Shamanistic means is debatable, too. Cause if Orc beliefs, undead beliefs, troll beliefs and taruen beliefs are all under the blanket of "shamanistic", I have very little idea what it means cause they are all distinctfully different. Shamanistic basically means "animistic religion" and belief in a spirit realm. This is one of the most abused terms in Warcraft, and can be used as a deus ex machina for any non-humanoid race you choose. --Xmuskrat 13:56, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
Shamanism doesn't have to be Horde only. It just is. In lore, it was practiced by Orcs on Draenor, and it has never been practiced by any of the alliance races... therefore the only ones who have ever used it have been associated with the Horde. Were a shamanistic race to join the Alliance, then that would change. Considering that, I think its safe to say that Shamanism isn't synonymous with Horde. --Anticrash 14:41, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
Yeah, that's why I chose to say 'usually.' Personally, I say we remove all the points that involve shamanism. --Kakwakas 16:54, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
I think that'd make a ton of sense. --Xmuskrat 16:55, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
I formerly had a funny idea : a special event involving that Draenei would have Shamans and Blood Elves with Paladins (to make sure that no faction is nerfed)--Kirochi 17:17, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
Not a bad idea, but doubtful. Source, Caydiem 2005-09-10: "Any FFA or co-op realm would take significant changes to the way the game operates as a whole. The game isn't balanced to have both Paladins and Shamans in the party. The world is largely centered around the factions in both large and small ways, but that core game mechanic touches practically everything. To remove it in some capacity would open a huge can of worms and a tremendous piece of work." --Xmuskrat 17:23, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
Fine then, I know that I didn't have "the idea" ^^--Kirochi 17:46, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
In the list it states  : - Shamanistic culture. However, in the Draenei_Rumor, in the bottom, Draenei are listed as being "not" shamanistic... so which is it? CJ 03:45, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)
There's no real proof that Draenei are shamanistic, but since there's no official word for their beliefs, people jump to shamanistic. --Kakwakas 08:39, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)
It's possible they're even Druidic instead of Shamanistic. But my personal opinion leans more toward shaman (which makes more sense to me). --Anticrash 10:16, 11 Jan 2006 (EST)

Nerubians Edit

I think that we could add in the category "Nerubian" that they are same family as the silithids, which are hostile with everyone.

Thats a really good idea. I added it in. =) --Anticrash 15:46, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)
Night Elves are biologically related to High Elves, Blood Elves, Naga, Satyrs, and Harpies... Doesn't mean any of them have the same ideals. --Xmuskrat 16:59, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)
Thats different. True, those races were all once Night Elves, but they evolved as a result of corruption; they are artificial races, with innate traits relative to their means of creation. Nerubians and Silithid did not spawn from the Aqir because of corruption, just evolution. Since the Aqir were a naturally invasive species and were constantly battling for control over Kalimdor, its obvious that any subspecies would have similar traits. --Anticrash 17:09, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)
What about dwarves? They came from earthen, who will attack anyone nearby.
--Kakwakas 17:42, 12 Jan 2006 (EST)
I agree. The Forsaken are biologicially related to the Scourge and humans. I think this is a weak arguement that says very little. --Xmuskrat 08:47, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
I think it's also worth mentioning that Nerubians are actually intelligent, not mindless zerg bugs, so they're not just driven on some instinct that they might share with Silithid. --Kakwakas 08:57, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Personally, I think the races will all fit a theme: we'll see Nerubians (Horde) and Tuskarr (Alliance) for the Northrend expansion, Naga (Horde) and Murloc (Alliance) for the Great Sea expansion and Blood Elves (Horde) and either Draenei or Ogres (Alliance) for the Outland expansion. They thematically fit best for each expansion.
What races would fit best with the Emerald Dream?
Where would Pandaren fit in the best? The Far East Expansion? With whom, Ninja Kitsune?
Fun to speculate, no? --Xmuskrat 09:22, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Yes, fun to make speculations, but don't forget to add some facts in it sometimes ^^
"Do not assume anything." -Yoda

What you said these races is funny and I consider most of the races you proposed seem more than possible to me (except for Murlocs, but why not for Nerubians ...) Also, we have to remember that the title of the next coming expansion is "Burning Crusade", so that may mean there are one or more races seeking to start a BIG huge war against the demons present in the Outland. And the Draenei are really concerned by this topic whereas Ogre just don't give a f**k (ok, I don't really know what Ogres think, but at least we never heard them complaining nor saw them attacking Magtheridon or whoever else).--Kirochi 11:35, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)

The fact that Nerubians are intelligent doesn't mean anything about their hostility toward other races. Orcs and Humans are both intelligent.. yet they are constantly at war. Also, the invasive heritage of the Aqir does not mean that the Nerubians are definitely the same way, I am only implying that it could be suggested that they are the same, since apples don't fall far from trees. Next: yes, the Forsaken are biologically connected to the Scourge, but you are forgetting this: The Scourge are all controlled by Ner'zhul!! He contols ALL of their actions. Their hostility depends on him. Now, as far as the Earthen and Dwarves are concerned, I don't see this as being comparable to Nerubians at all, since the Earthen were mindless golems that were crafted for a purpose, then were put into a hibernation during which they transformed into Dwarves. Similar to a butterfly emerging from a cacoon, they went into the sleep as one thing and emerged as something completely different. The Nerubians however, changed through evolution. Transformation and Evolution are different concepts. Well... thats my argument.
I think the most logical Alliance race for the Emerald Dream/Paradise would be Furbolgs. They apparently already have a connection to it, plus their previous alliance with the Night Elves opens the door for them in the Alliance. As far as the Horde is concerned, that's a tough one. I would suggest some kind of Dragonkin... since dragons are also connected to the Dream as well. Maybe dragonspawn from a dragonflight in opposition of the green dragonflight...? --Anticrash 11:59, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
OK, the Scourge is under the control of the Lich King, but the Forsaken have minds of their own.
Same way, the Silithid are under the control of C'Thun, but the Nerubians have minds of their own.
I'll give you the earthen-dwarves part, but I'll take this new part by using your (valid) logic. Also, intelligent races, such as humans and Nerubians, have the ability to have beliefs that change over time. --Kakwakas 13:18, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Good point about the Silithid being controlled by C'Thun. I overlooked that aspect, though I think I'm referring more to the Aqir race as opposed to the Silithid, since the Aqir were not controlled by anything and are the original form of both Silithid and Nerubians.
Also, I had another thought about the Forsaken. I had made a statement previously about certain races being "Corrupted" and therefore unnaturally hostile or ill-minded. The Forsaken fall under this category as well, since they are really humans that have been corrupted by undeath. It has instilled a lack of emotion which reduces their capacity to relate to other races and play nicely. So, really, the Forsaken do not fit into my paradigm of evolution vs. instinct. --Anticrash 13:28, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Yeah. Now that we've reached a deadlock, we'll just have to wait until Blizz releases a Northrend expansion and find out what they do with Nerubians. =p --Kakwakas 16:17, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Given that I expect a few expansions will happen BEFORE Northrend, don't hold your breath on this one. :) --Xmuskrat 16:34, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Although I can see a group of non-undead Nerubians becoming a non-playable faction players can gain and lose reputation with. I do not see them becoming a playerable race. This is simply for 3 reasons. 1. There non-humanoide which presents numerous technical difficulties. 2. Any non-undead nerbians would be very few in number which makes them unable to support a player base. 3. Undead Nerubians (who have the numbers to support a player base) would be connected to the Horde because they would essentially be "Forsaken". Because of the technical difficulties it is also unlikely that they will be allied with the horde in a futre expansion.--The cucumber 14:30, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

Where is this? Edit

On this Map they show races and race starting areas. I can read everything, but the zone and race name near Gilneas. It might even SAY Gilneas on this. The race name? Hard to tell. It appears to be five letters long. This is from the collectors edition DVD. --Xmuskrat 21:24, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)

Eh? "DALARAN" and I think "HUMANS." That's the only city I see near where Gilneas would be. --Kakwakas 22:28, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)
This is a desperate call to any owner of the collector's edition DVD of WoW : please tell us what's really written on this map !--Kirochi 15:59, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)
The area near Gilneas does say "DALARAN" and "HUMANS", and it is not just starting zones, but certain towns/cities as well and what race is dominant there. Example: Under IRONFORGE it says DWARVES, near UNDERMINE it says GOBLINS, and near NAZJATAR it says NAGA, since they respectively control those areas. --Anticrash 16:08, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)
I know Goblins were originally planned as a player race, but were shafted for Trolls. As part of this shaft, Blizzard stated that Goblins were now neutral. They actually had the player models done, they were never turned on. That's why this map jumped out at me. I think there's a strong possibility that this map was used to pick what races would start where. It also make me think Blizzard would really like a Naga race. It could be quite interesting if we see, in the future, Dalaran is an Alliance player city with a new race that was too blurry to make out. --Xmuskrat 17:01, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)
Oh my I know I can be foolish sometimes, but what about a third faction led by Goblins ? Cause we know goblins used to be Horders (and not harders, they're too short for thet) but they may create their own faction (yes I know completely destroy the neutral cities, but who knows ?)

And by the way, on this map Undercity is called Necropolis, so it means a lot of details of this map may have utterly changed.--Kirochi 17:54, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

I have the DVD, and it's not any clearer than that picture. --Kakwakas 19:35, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)
Thank you then. I don't understand why they put an illegible map ...--Kirochi 15:12, 7 Jan 2006 (EST)
I believe they flashed it as a tease. The fact we got any information from it at all probably was a suprise to them.--Xmuskrat 14:12, 8 Jan 2006 (EST)
K) We pwned Blizzie !!! xD--Kirochi 07:53, 10 Jan 2006 (EST)
LoL. Somehow, I kinda doubt it...

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