Talk: Tirion Fordring

Alliance NPCs

I removed Category:Alliance NPCs because he's been exiled, and all his quests are both Alliance/Horde. -- TheMaster42 23:39, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Brotherhood of Light

Hmm im not sure that the Brotherhoodof the light was the order Tirion created. they could have easily been there before, and were just called up or disbanded until times of great need. And if they are new, they could have been formed by existing Argent Dawn members that were that held high positions in the organization. I find it more probable that Tirion would create the order he said he would: A Reformed Silver Hand. When the BoL member mentions "Lord Tirion and his Knights", I believe the way he said it means that him and his knights are part of another organization. (unsigned)

I agree. I think the speculation is a little too uncertain to warrant inclusion in the article. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one: the order Tirion is going to refound is the Silver Hand and not the Brotherhood of Light, and the Lord Fordring referred to is Taelan Fordring whom we know to be a high-ranking member of the Scarlet Crusade. It makes more sense that Scarlet Commander Marjhan's superior would be the one seeing to her atonement, and I doubt that Tirion Fordring would "take great pleasure" in seeing someone punished. The Brotherhood of Light also is most emphatically not an order of paladins (just ask Korfax). I've removed the below section from the article.--Aeleas 13:31, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

After completion of Tirion's Questline, he swears that he will reform the order (referring specifically to the order of the Silver Hand). With Patch 1.11, a new faction has been introduced, the Brotherhood of the Light. Self-proclaimed to be members of the Argent Dawn at the core, they claim that they are in most parts directly opposed to the Scarlet Crusade. In a conversation between the leaders of all three factions, a leading member threatens a member of the Scarlet Crusade that he will call upon "Fordring and his knights" to see to her "atonement". This may either refer to Tirion, implying he heads Brotherhood, or to Taelen Fordring, telling her that he will inform her Scarlet Crusade superiors that she is being uncooperative.

I belive it may be a little early to write off the idea of Tirion being the founder. Durring Tirion Fordring's quest his son is killed by Grand Inquisitor Isillien of the Scarlet Crusade, so he likely would take great pleasure from killing a Scarlet Commander. Also it's noticable that the Scarlets do not refer to themselves as Knights, and it is unlikely that the Brotherhood of the Light would view them as such as well. However the Silver Hand, as it is commonly called, is in fact the Knights of the Silver Hand. The Knights of the Silver Hand seems to be the only organization other than the Death Knights or Blood Knights to refer to themselves as Knights in the world of Warcraft. I just feel it's a little soon to completely write him off as the founder of the Brotherhood of the Light until it is known for sure.--Dedwrekka 11 October 2006

I doubt that the Brotherhood of the Light is Tirion's order.. I mean, what happens to the Silver Hand after Turalyon and his knights come back? .--TM41

If you read Tirions text you will see into his personality. I find it doubtful that he, or any noble Paladin would find pleasure in killing someone. Even if they had reasons for revenge. Though his son died, Tirion got retibution on his killer so he shouldn't have many motives for revenge. Especially if he had no quarrel with Marjhan. He dosen't take pleasure from killing people like the Scarlet Crusade does. He probably watches on, frowns and shakes his head at their actions. Also the death of his son didn't send him on a quest for revenge. It filled him with new resolve to reform an order that stood for truth, justice, and honor above all else: the Order of the Silver Hand as it also commonly called. You will notice at the end of the quest line he has the title <Lord of the Silver Hand>. Back in his day he was lord of Mardenholde keep in Hearthglen, but in the Silver Hand, he was but a servant of the light. This new title may suggest that he has decided to take up the reigns of the Order and reorganize it, so that one day, all the Paladins may rejoin it with new intentions and not let politics cloud their judgement. Oh and Dedwrekka, the term 'Knight' may only be a title, or class of person. You ARE a Blood Knight, Death Knight, or Knight of the Silver Hand. Barron Rivendare IS a Death Knight, with the Knight part refferring to his rank umong the stucture of the Scourge. Kngihts of the Silver Hand may be reffering to the people in the order, the Knights themselves. The term 'Order' actually refers to the organization of said Knights. These are just merely Knights that represent and serve in The Order of the Silver hand. There are also other organizations of Knights. The Knights of Lordearon were the cavalry of Lordaeon's armies.--G3n0c1de

Now why would Tirion be distrustful of magic (in the book) when he is a Paladin, a user of Arcane magic.....it makes no sense to distrust magic that Antonaidas uses when its the same magic as your own in a different form. Sooooooo confused. Baldr 16:15 August 9, 2007

Incorrect. Tirion uses divine magic, which is much different than arcane magic. --Austin P 16:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No...holy is in the arcane school, humans just don't see the difference. Baldr 04:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Theres been no evidence to support that. Just fan speculation that its the same as arcane magic ever since the introduction of the Naruu and Blood Elf paladins tapping it. Last we heard it's still a divine magic. Arcane magic is one very specific type of magic (that of mages, locks, and necromancers). Divine magic is the safer non-addictive faith and nature based magics (who generaly, but not always, tend to be in the name of goodness).Warthok 10:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no... just go to the search box and type in "magic" ok??? Baldr 17:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I highly suggest you do it instead. Holy magic is NOT by any stretch of the imagination arcane magic. Arcane magic is the magic of the nether, of the well of eternity, the kind that is addictive and demons crave. Its the magic mages gather and use to cast their spells. The Light is still a philosophy to tap a cosmic energy we still know very little about.Warthok 17:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The light is as far as possible from all other arcane forms, where others can hurt, it heals, where others are used at whim, it is used in need. BUT as being A cosmic energy in the first place, not an entity, it falls under the arcane school. True... many see it in a religious light and it's polar energy is by far different from tyhe common arcane, it is still not natural... Baldr 00:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Cosmic energy is not arcane energy. the elements spread out throughout the cosmos but they are also not arcane magic. Arcane Magic is one very well defined type of magic while divine is more "wishy-washy". Diving magics are healing magic that come from deities, nature, or any source other than the twisitng nether. The light being a cosmic force is still classified under Diving magic.Warthok 04:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

THIS was written by blizz... not me: "The shamanic and druidic races do not dismiss the Holy Light that the humans prize, but they understand that the light comes from countless myriads of brightly shining points. In a rush to embrace the all, shamans agree, humans quite literally miss the point." That explaint it? Baldr 00:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

No. That has nothing to do with what we discussed. The Light is a divine magic. Divine magic has many sources. What is it you are getting at?Warthok 02:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

That unlike arcane, natural magic is drawn from entities not from several points of energy, as aid, in a rush to embrace them all, shamans agree, humans quite literally miss the point. Which means they fail to see the bigger picture of magic in entities, not just as an eternal veil of power over the world. Unless, the holy light is an entity, which I doubt it is. Baldr 22:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Your taking superflous language and try it to interpret it literaly. What it is saying is simply that humans don;t care about the source they want power. Back to the conversation at hand, Divine magics source are not all entities. they can include dieties (Elune, Loa Gods), but also include nature itslef, universal elemental shamanistic spirits, and powerful cosmic forces.Warthok 01:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Um... no dude, you are seriously mistaken. Who would be the diety controllong light? A'dal? A saint? Or is the light jsut an energy that surrounds us. Dont twist that fact with nonsense. Baldr 04:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no diety controling the light. thats exactly what i'm getting at. Divine magic is not magic from the gods (of which warcraft only truely has one of), it is many things which include powers from dieties, but also nature magic, elemental spirits, ancestor worship, and the philosophy of channeling a universal cosmic force. that last one i just meantioned is the one the light is. Baldr you are making little sense and all i am doing is repeating myself here, i doubt you even took the time to read what i wrote the last few times. please explicitly state what it is you are trying to interprate. Are you under the impression all magic that isn't from a god is arcane magic? because that is not the case. Arcane magic is one very specific type of magic that is clearly defined. Think of it as sorcerly magic, typical wizard sterotype that in warcraft is used by Mages, Warlocks, and Necromancers. The generaly safer healing magics are classified under divine magic (Again divine magic in warcraft does not mean a divine being nessesarly). the light is one of these.

Now it's true that the paladins of azeroth have not always understood exactly what the light is and they have condemed mages for their use of arcane magic out of ignorance. They see the magic they practice as good and beneficial and the ones mages practice as dangerous and potientialy disastrious, again out of ignorance. They see the Light as a different type of magic than arcane magic but they don't truely understand what either is. Regardless however of how little they understood they have, out of ignorance, still ended up with the right conclusion. Practice of the light is not arcane magic. It's divine, which in warcraft does not nessesarly mean a diety. In fact out of all the different types of magics that are classified under divine (shamanism, druidism, the light and shadow, etc...) only one has a diety providing the power: Elune worship.Warthok 08:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to stick the nail in the coffin, heres a passage from magic and mayhem pg 22. "Though the sources of divine power are varied, its use has one constant: faith. Effectively wielding divine power requires tremendous conviction; the dedication required to achieve such perfect faith is a lifelong pursuit. Unlike arcane spellcasters who believe that power exists to be taken, divine spellcasters must constantly affirm that they are worthy of their gifts. They must be certain that they are properly honoring their gods, philosophies, ancestors or convictions. Perfect faith requires intense training and constant testing, which continues throughout the practitioner's lifetime. Of the many tests that a practitioner must face, two of the most common are ordeals and trails of faith."Warthok 08:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I did read them all and I perfectly understand what you are trying 2 say, but as you asked... short and sweet.

IZ TIRION A USER OF MAGIC!?! lemme answer that for you... YES! it says he is distrustful of "magic" not Arcane magic, not even natural which he never heard of, it says... "magic" and since he uses holy magic, but ultimately MAGIC then we must assume that he is distrustful of HIMSELF!!! Which is why it doesn't make SENSE!!!holy magic is certanly not falling under any description of natural magic EVER! we must assume that the holy light gets no special treatment, in order to be natural magic, you have to follow its own guidelines. plz see artcles under, Shamanism, Druidism and the elemental spirits for further clarification. Baldr 18:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Baldr, please calm down. Shouting and putting things in capitals isn't appreciated. Kirkburn  talk  contr 18:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Quoting your first post: "Now why would Tirion be distrustful of magic (in the book) when he is a Paladin, a user of Arcane magic." I'm here telling you he is NOT a user of arcane magic. Often divine magic (shamanism, druidism, light worship, voodoo, elune worship) is not called magic and the way the word magic is being used refers explicitly to arcane magic.

Once again i repeat: Divine magic has many sources, not just dieties and nature. reread everything i already posted because all i'm doing is repeating myself. Articles about druidism and shamism say nothing about what falls under the divine catagory. Refering me to those catagories is akin to saying Queens isn't a part of New York City and to see articles about the Bronx and Manhattan. See Divine Magic for more info.Warthok 19:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well now Im repeating myself too. Tirion is a user of magic... period, we all agree.

And if you happen to find a relationship between nature magic and "divine" plz point it out instead of making empty claims. Baldr 00:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Try Magic and mayhem rpg book. The entire section based on explaining the difference between arcane and divine. And read Divine magic. And i did cite my sources and only repeated info explicitly stated in official sources. The only empty claims here are your own.Warthok 02:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, the RPG books, which have what connection to warcraft again? I myself have found countless offsets in the books that at first led me to consier it was talking about a whole other game... Baldr 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The author of warcraft lore has declared them as official. Warcraft_RPG#Official_Source_of_LoreThere are a few inconsistancies, just like every other sourse, but far more amounts of lore in the games has been created from matierial from the rpgs than the game or other sources have differed on. If you want to be frank theres more inconsistancies between the MMO game and every other source than there is between the other sources. So really you are arguing with Chris Metzen. And remember this is a place to discuss changes to the articles on wowwiki and wowwiki also rightly considers the rpg as canon (though the term canon isn't used).Warthok 00:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

No, Im arguing with you, over a book and a question that had nothing 2 do with what we are arguing about, I asked, why was Tirion distrustful of magic? He is a user of magic. Simeple and easily understood, now I'm looking for an answer. Baldr 01:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No as i quoted, (Now why would Tirion be distrustful of magic (in the book) when he is a Paladin, a user of Arcane magic.....it makes no sense to distrust magic that Antonaidas uses when its the same magic as your own in a different form. Sooooooo confused.) you asked why he was distrustful of arcane magic as he is a user of arcane magic. And i showed you that he isn't a user of arcane magic. I figured the fact the magics they practice being different would be enough for you to understand why paladins can mistrust mages. Now if you want to change it to why is a user of magic distrustful of other magics, thats fine. That is even easy to answer.

"Magic" in the way it's being used in the article is refering only to mages/warlcoks/necromancers. The word magic has many different connatations and if you ask a paladin if he practices magic he will say no. Same is true of a Druid or Shaman. They see their vocations of practices of faith (which they are). The other connatation of magic is basicly all forms of casting and anything that is metaphysical. Again to make it loud and clear: the word magic has different meanings.

As far as distrust goes. Even users of arcane magic are distrustful of each other (Mages and Locks). Same with practicioners of the divine (most don;t like VooDoo). why wouldn't someone who practices a different type of magic be distrustful of the other magics. Druids are mistrustful of mages and warlocks. Its because they can see what happens when that magic is abused. Paladins are well aware that the mage's magic is connected to demons. mages were being persecuted in Strom and they created their own city where they could practice freely: Dalaran. Human magic use once brought rogue demons to Dalaran and the human lands which is why the Council of Tirisfal was created. these sorcerous magics are also known to be addictive and it's easy for mages to become warlocks and necromancers. Mages are well aware of this and struggle to control the addiction. They fight with it constantly and the addiction is not something that can be overcome. The mages lives with it their whole lives hoping they don't live long enough for the addiction to overtake them. Why wouldn't a paladin be distrustful of this?

I guess what i don't understand is why are you under the impression that a user of magic should fully trust all other users of magic even when those other magics are different and many times dangerous. Your question would make more sense if it was Antonidas being mistrustful of Tirion, but it's only logical a holy man would be against any kind of activity that attracts demons.Warthok 02:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

And why do people need to be distrustful of arcane in the first place? In "Tides of Darkaness" the book, once khadgar revealed that he was part of the kirin'tor, the villagers of southshore were only reassured by him saying that he would not stay... is that like... mage-ist? And back 2 topic... The reason arcane is portrayed as evil, is because it tends to lure demons, because they feed on it, who is to say that holy does not lure them? Demons feed on ALL magics, so I can be just as distrustful of holy magic as of arcane. Personally... magic sucks, I'd feel better operating a goblin shredder... Baldr 19:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Demons do not feed on holy divine spells, actually, its their bane, it causes them severe damage. Its the complete opposite of arcane/fel magics.Baggins 19:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What baggins just said. Arcane magic is what attracts them. Some mages can keep it under control. but others can't and haven't. thus the distrust.

The last thing you said however brings up something i wanted to meantion earlier but i kinda thought it outta place. One of the themes in warcraft is about cultures and trading one magic for another, the corruption of the arcane and the general goodness of divine magics. Most races in warcraft need some kind of magic to help them survive and thrive. Night Elves do, as did Orcs on draenor, humans of arathor, etc...It seems simple warriors, hunters and farmers just don't cut it in the harsh world of warcraft. Divine magic however puts cultures at the mercy of higher powers and have their limits, arcane magic does not but causes corruption. Technology is something new in Warcraft which has been hinted that its capable and could start to replace magic. kinda parralels our world dontcha think? So I agree, i'd feel better with technology as well...though maybe not goblin technology quite yet ;) Warthok 19:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that not all divine magic is necessarily "good". The shadow and most kinds of voodoo for example.Baggins 20:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep, i think i meantioned in my first response. Also some shamans seem to be capable of bullying the elemetals such as fel orc shamans and the new taunka race. But generaly, not always, its seen as a safer alternative to arcane magic.Warthok 20:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Well you also have the worshippers of the old gods, like the Twilight Hammers, who are also shaman/geomancers and capable of utilizing evil elementals.Baggins 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

ah yes. more reason for mistrust between magical orginizations. nearly everyone has their darkside. Arcane magics seems to be thrust more to the forefront with 2 invasion by the burning legion now and the consequences of these invasions.Warthok 20:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Also summoning elementals are the one point where the arcane and divine are similar (although the two fields are definitely different), in that both can be used to call upon elementals and enslave them. Although arcane representes a more unnatural way of doing it, while divine represents a more natural way of doing it.Baggins 21:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Both nature AND arcane magics have been suspectible to be "eaten" by felhounds... i don't know about holy, perhaps doesn't attrackt demons, but then again, neither does natural.Sargeras's greatest enemy now is the mortal races, being united by the nearly immortal Naaru. Now the naaru are beings of holy light, if I was sargeras, I'd have made to countering light. But I dunno. The weilders of the light can be arrogant, foolish, but most of them are simply divine, so I'd say demons are going to have a tough time to get to them. The tech is still pwning... Baldr 02:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Very true. while arcane is the magic that causes addiction and attracts the demons, it's not the only type they (and BE too) will feed on. The only problem i see with tech right now is that it still isnt very highly developed or sophisticated. Powerful yes...but with few exceptions it lacks precision. Maybe one day the mortal races will turn to technology. We sure are doing that.Warthok 03:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Baldr, you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. If you wish to do so, then go somewhere else, and stop wasting space. --Xavius 08:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember to read the date as this argument ended around 2 months ago.   Zurr  T ∙ C 19:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

This is WoWWiki arguements never end :D Warchiefthrall 19:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea, but i think he finaly understood where he was mistaken.Warthok Talk Contribs 19:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

In that case, it is good. I am just astonished by people who refuse to accept the written facts. --Xavius 11:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Bak from vaca while yall were still talkin bak here...

what written facts???yall cant rly prove me wrong you may as well stop tryin and get over it Baldr 05:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Guess i was wrong. Ignorance survives.Warthok Talk Contribs 07:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW Baldr, the written facts are located on page 250 of the WoWRPG Corebook. Read the entire section, it might finaly make sense to you.Warthok Talk Contribs 08:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Havnt read that book specifically, but i wish to end this argument yet again stating that blizz rly messed up...another scrambeled piece of lore, thats all it is, can we get over it? Baldr 00:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree but sure we can end this. Nothing more to discuss. Warthok Talk Contribs 05:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Indent

Is there a reason for the indentation in this article? In my opinion, rather than adding style (as was the likely reasoning behind it) it detracts from such. Any objections to removing it? Flyspeck 22:24, 1 November 2006 (EST)

I'm not a great fan of this new style either, mainly because it adds a lot of unneeded code to articles which makes it much more intimidating for some users to "be bold in editing". However, it seems to be popping up all over the place, and discussion of it is occurring on other articles as well. Rather than deciding the issue on an article-by-article basis, it would probably be best to address it at somewhere like the Village Pump, somewhere where the discussion could lead to a resolution in the form of a wiki-wide guideline.--Aeleas 01:33, 2 November 2006 (EST)

Tirion's return

Both this article and Taelan's state that Tirion is trying to reform the Silver Hand and that Taelan has died. Have any of these events been confirmed to take place? Quests are usually not considered official unless they've been confirmed, or "locked down" as Baggins would say. --Austin P 14:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It hasn't occured by the time of Alliances Player's Guide, which takes place after the start of World of Warcraft, and just before TBC. The TBC manual doesn't lock it down IIRC. So it may still be up in the air.

Though we do know scourge invasion was locked down by the TBC manual, which would lock down anything that occurs in Light's Hope Chapel most likely, so if it mentions anything about Taelen or Tirion there, then those most likely have happened. In anycase the info needs to be in the articles, but just needs to be tagged with the "WoW" template.Baggins 15:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the subject, does the wiki have an article that discuss events that have officially transpired? --Austin P 23:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Rumor: Tirion Has The Ashbringer?

I heard a rumor posted by a couple people from the Ashbringer.com forums that they heard news pertaining to Tirion and the Ashbringer at BlizzCon. They said that they attended the lore panel, and Metzen or one of them said that Tirion was going to show up in Northrend...wielding the Ashbringer! Any truth to this? --Joshmaul 09:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Tirion will show up in Northrend. Chris Metzen also said that the Ashbringer might also appear in Tirion's story arc somewhere. Does that mean that Tirion will wield the Ashbringer? Who knows? It's quite possible but Metzen didn't outright confirm it at the Blizzcon Lore Panel. You can read a writeup of the lore panel here: [1] --Foogray 10:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Tirion does have the cleansed Ashbringer after all. Those are screenshots from the playable Northrend zone at Blizzcon: http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/marrak/WoWscreenshots/?action=view&current=IMAGE_00013.jpg http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/marrak/WoWscreenshots/?action=view&current=IMAGE_00010.jpg --Foogray 08:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Will he still be in EPL too?--SWM2448 15:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If he's following the trend of Hemet Nesingwary and Nazgrel, then no. He might send someone else from the reformed Silver Hand to watch his house (and give out his quests) though. I was actually pondering the same about Sylvanas - apparently, she's going to show up in Northrend too. If that's the case, what will happen with the whole Alleria's locket quest chain? *ponder*

Alternatively, the both of them might make a 'guest appearance' in Northrend, like Thrall does in Nagrand, but remain in Lordaeron the rest of the time. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 16:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Any info on how the screenshot of Tirion and the Ashbringer was obtained? ~Peregrine

Camera at blizzcon?--SWM2448 01:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Tirion will become so badass that he appears in 2 places at once? After all, the Tirion Fording chain in the Plaguelands is considered one of the best chains ever made. --Invin Dranoel 14:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Nah they'll just switch out Tirion with Tirion Jr, and just slighly modify the quest text, :p.Baggins 00:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Tirion Fordring in EPL, Lord Tirion Fordring in WPL, Highlord Tirion Fordring in Nothrend.--SWM2448 19:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Could anyone explain how did Tirion obtain Ashbringer? Has he met mograines 3rd son or what?

Tirion is/was a Rouge

He was an outlaw therefore he was a rouge.--The last Alterac (talk) 07:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In the sense that he had been exiled and decided to go it alone, therefore answering to no higher power, then yes. But he was definitely not a rogue in the sense of the WoW class, if that's what you're getting at. Warchiefthrall (talk) 08:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

A rouge? Really? Who would have thought. Ose ^talk/₃₇₂₁ 21:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)