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Shadows & Light cover - Not Tyrande? Edit

The following discussion concerns this image Image:Panorama.jpg,

Tyrandetiger

I don't know who she is, but it's not her. - Parqual Fintalas

It's her, unless Malfurion Stormrage is having affairs with other night elf women....Baggins 00:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Which, given the way he's portrayed in the WotA trilogy, is absurdly unlikely. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
So what makes you so certain that that's Malfurion? He's not the only druid out there, nor is she the only priestess of the moon. And since the only reliable defining characteristic of Tyrande has been the color of her hair - blue, which that isn't - I'd ask on what grounds you've assumed it's her. - Parqual Fintalas
Mal is the only druid with horns, when that book was written, and samwise did the artwork. BTW, her hair is blue in that artwork.Baggins 02:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
That's purple, and Mal isn't the only druid with horns. I realize that Samwise did the art, but where does he say who they are? - Parqual Fintalas
It's dark blue, actually. ...whatever druids had horns? BTW, when that artwork was drawn there was only Malfurion that had horns, and he is the only one with horns and bipedal Baggins 03:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
No, it's purple. And where are you getting this "Mal's the only one with horns" from? There can be more than one Arch-Druid at a time. Heck, there was a time when every night elf male were going to have horns. - Parqual Fintalas
Have you ever played warcraft 3, and looked at production artwork, there was only one character with horns and bipedal at that time, and that was malfurian. All of samwises art of malfurion looks the same. Its still blue, although the whole freakign picture has a "purple tinge" to it, its the lighting and composition... but that's aregueing opinion and eyesight... But at the time artwork was drawn by samwise he wasn't drawing anything but "Malfurion" and "Tyrande". BTW, if you compare shade with tyrande on cover of War of the Ancients, both have the same tattoos, and the shade of color is the same too. You can check this by copy and pasting the hair next to each other(although in both cases the composition uses purple shaded lighting for the picture).Baggins 03:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
First, there are a few other characters with horns in the Warcraft III production art. Second, where's the rest of Samwise's art of Malfurion? Because all the other art I've ever seen of him have been by other people, save the Christmas wallpaper. And finally, where are you getting this? Where have you ever seen is quantitatively indicated that Samwise was specifically drawing Malfurion and Tyrande? - Parqual Fintalas
And why are you convinced it's not her? More to the point, why would they put two completely random people on the front of a book, when nearly all other WoW artwork uses specific characters. Also, is the hair in the picture purple or blue? Image:Tyrande.jpg Kirkburn talk contr 03:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not convinced it's not her, but nothing indicates that it IS her. I could just as easily pull any night elf female art and claim it's Tyrande, or any Keeper and claim it's Cenarius. So I would think, in the effort of keeping speculation speculation, this be removed from her page (and Mal's), until something indicates that it is her aside from fans playing guessing games. Traditionally, the RPGs actually have NOT depicted specific characters. Perhaps this was supposed to showcase an epic druid? - Parqual Fintalas
The current overwhelming evidence is that it is her, due to the colouring, the facial markings, the horned druid, the white saber, the throne ... the list goes on. The onus is on you to show us that it isn't her (especially since Blizzard rarely specifies who is in drawings - it's normally up to the reader to realise). The book came out before WoW, so no, it isn't showing an epic (gear) druid. Kirkburn talk contr 03:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The coloring is, like I said, actually contrary to most of her other interpretations, the facial markings have come and gone and come and gone, the frostsaber is standard issue for every Priestess of the Moon, and the throne? Do you mean the stone slab against the tree they're leaning up against? Plus... since when has Tyrande sat in a throne, anyway? And I meant an epic RPG druid. Y'know, the kind they give stats for in the very book in question? - Parqual Fintalas
I just showed you a picture where she has purply-blue hair! Your facial markings excuse is incredibly tenuous, since she's shown with them on most artwork. And yes, it's quite normal for leaders to have a throne, or some seat of power. In addition, this is the same book that showcases info for Tyrande and Malfurion, right? Kirkburn talk contr 04:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And back to the left ... so the reason you believe it's not her is because her hair isn't blue enough? Is there anything apart from that? Kirkburn talk contr 04:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, A picture with purple hair, while the rest are with bright blue hair. The facial marking appear on the Warcraft III box art, and the cover to Demon Soul, while they do NOT appear in the TCG card art, either of her in-game models (even though the standard WOW model HAS those same markings in the system) nor the art on her Shadows & Light profile.
You could well be right. I'm not discounting that. However, at the end of the day, it's a guess, and I don't see why I am heaped with the burden of proof just because you have others who have agreed on the same guess. - Parqual Fintalas
The in-game models are never going to be as accurate as artwork (though I do find it odd she doesn't have them in WoW). And again, I just showed you a picture where her hair is not bright blue - are you going to keep ignoring that? Image:Tyrande.jpg. The burden of proof exists because the only problem with the image is a slight problem with hair colour ... whereas everything else fits the typical image of Tyrande and Mal. It would be nice to have confirmation either way, of course - any know of a good method for that? Kirkburn talk contr 04:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Found a link to a better version of the image: [1]. It is labelled "WarCraft - Twilight of the Immortals", which unfortunately doesn't help :/ Kirkburn talk contr 04:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't ignore it. Every other piece of art has bright blue hair. And don't shrug off the in-game models, the crew works just as hard on them as they do on concept art. If they wanted to put facial markings on Tyrande in either game, they could have, and they decided not to. All this means to me is that the markings are not permanent and she can wear them as she pleases. Either way, it doesn't really matter, because they're hardly exclusive to her anyway. Also, let's take a look at this Malfurion doppelganger. Every other piece of art regarding Malfurion has NEVER depicted him with those kinds of antlers. They've always been stag-like, while those are more moosey. This includes the movie, every piece of concept art I've ever seen of him, and his in-game models, INCLUDING the model in WoW, in which, recall, he is wearing the entire Stormrage set SAVE the helm which WOULD give him moose-like antlers. They instead opted to stick with the stag-antlers.
And again, your position is no more substantiated than mine. You've placed the burden of proof on me when neither of us can prove our positions. I would think that, if you want this site to be one built on fact rather than speculation, that would be enough to take it down. - Parqual Fintalas
Panorama
, Another image, found by Baggins - Image:Panorama.jpg, showing how two images are linked. It's pretty obvious the left image is of Cenarius, Tyrande, Mal and Illidan. Notice the similarity of horn style between Cenarius and ... the druid. Btw, few of the early in-game models for special characters used their own models - so no, they are not always representative. Edit: thanks to Karrion, a better link for a full-colour image - [2] Kirkburn talk contr 04:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Nor is art always representative. Either way, they are iterations of the character, and you can't just up and decide they don't count. Regarding the Panorama:
First: You can't prove that's Cenarius.
Second: Over the Long Vigil, Cenarius and his children lived closely with the night elves and taught them. That could be any Keeper, and could be any prospective students.
Third: If the image on the left is supposed to be a progression to the image on the right, a flashback, if you will, then that CAN'T be Tyrande, because of the frostsaber cub. The night elves have only been riding the Frostsabers for 4000 years, the minority of the Long Vigil, and if that's supposed to be Tyrande with pre-horned Malfurion, then it places it before the Sundering. - Parqual Fintalas
You have to be kidding me if you're actually trying to convince me the image on the left isn't Cenarius. I'm off to bed, because this is getting silly. (Also, I should point out that different artists have different styles, and sabers really were used back then so far as I recall. Pretty big part of the WotA trilogy, in fact). Edit: need a source for "The night elves have only been riding the Frostsabers for 4000 years, the minority of the Long Vigil". Kirkburn talk contr 04:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Those were NIGHTsabers, not FROSTsabers. Frostsabers weren't used until Tyrande saved their queen 4000 years ago. Monster Guide, 78.
While artists have their own styles, they don't generally just haul off and do whatever they want with iconic characters whose looks have been already established.
What characteristic does Cenarius have that all the other Keepers lack; that you can look at an image and immediately say "That's Cenarius, and not some other Keeper"? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm doing is saying that there's nothing that says those are who these articles claim they are. And, once again, even if it IS Cenarius, it doesn't matter. Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan were far from his only students, and then, again, there's the frostsaber anomaly.
Now, evidently you've decided just to shrug off my points as "silly" and there's no point in trying to discuss this. - Parqual Fintalas
Oh this is just completely crazy. You're actually really, really telling me that that's not Cenarius, Tyrande, Mal and Illidan? Seriously, that's just ridiculous. Artists do not care about lore details, and this image was created in 2004. THREE years ago. BEFORE WoW came out. BEFORE many of the novels were released. THREE years before MG came out. You're right, there's little point discussing this if you're determined not to see the plainly obvious. Can I remind you that you've based this entire dispute on her hair colour being slightly off - if the image's hair colour was changed to blue, would you still dispute it? Kirkburn talk contr 05:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break one Edit

Once again, I'm not telling you that that's not Cenarius, Tyrande, Mal, and Illidan. I'm telling you that there's nothing that says that they ARE. Also, World of Warcraft was in production long before it was released, and long before this image was produced. And as of World of Warcraft, they'd obviously had some lore going for the frostsabers; who's to say that that lore detail wasn't in place then and just revealed now? As for the claim that artists don't care about lore details; generally most of the artists at Blizzard are responsible for the lore details, so... I'd challenge that one, too. Weren't you going to bed? - Parqual Fintalas

Waroftheancients2

Why not compare this image of Tyrande...Or why not compare all the rest?

Point of note, the book was about legends(major heroes), eternals, and evil beings. There were no other keepers in the book. The book had a section for cenarius only. I'm pretty sure lore and history background for frostsabers is inconsistent, some sources claim they existed during war of the ancients, others say they came later. Also consider S&L was written in 2003-4, MG is is 2007. WE can't expect samwise to predict the future can we? Do you know of any sources predating S&L that discuss frostsabers as not coming into being before 4000 years?Baggins 05:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Way to personalize it, Parqual. You have come up with a grand total of three reasons why it might be wrong:
  • Hair colour. Not acceptable, see image right.
  • Facial markings. An argument you've already dismissed.
  • Frostsaber appearance. Despite the image preceding the lore by three years. No, I really doubt Blizzard "save up lore" for such inconsequential details, nor was it written by Blizzard employees. Kirkburn talk contr 05:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Like I already said, IF that Keeper is Cenarius, Tyrande Mal and Illidan were far from his only students. However, that still doesn't mean that that IS Cenarius.
I never cited the facial markings as a reason against. You just cited them as a reason for. THAT's what we dismissed.
And find me a contradictory source regarding Frostsabers.
You forgot Malfurion's antlers, by the way.
And so do we not regard the RPGs as canon, now?
Also, you missed my fourth point: that nothing says it is them.
But frankly, I should only need one reason. You're posting unconfirmed information and fan conjecture. - Parqual Fintalas
Right, so if I hold up a banana, but don't have a label from the producer on it saying "this is a banana", it could quite possibly not be a banana? That is how absurd this appears atm. A contradictory source regarding frostsabers? The picture in question, perhaps? Antlers are drawn differently by different artists. I said NOTHING about the canonicity of RPGs (and I dispute the use of the word "canon" anwyay, as it is incredibly presumptuous and misleading).
We're posting information that pretty much everyone ever would agree is Tyrande and Malfurion. Perhaps it is "unconfirmed", that doesn't make it wrong. Kirkburn talk contr 05:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, the majority of his arguement was not "There exists evidence that the character portrayed is not Tyrande", but rather that "There is no evidence to support that it is Tyrande". Simply give such evidence, and we can lay this whole arguement to rest. On a side note, I don't even think we need this picture on the page to begin with, as it isn't really the best depiction of Tyrande's character, and there are plenty of other likeness of her elsewhere on the page. --Mikaka 05:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Reasons for it being Tyrande:.
  • Facial markings (and most colouring) are consistent with other drawings.
  • Appearance of horned druid behind.
  • Appearance of correct saber beside.
  • Regal and leader-like poses.
  • Connection to image on left which almost certainly shows the WotA group. Male (in simple garb - same as Malfurion) and female partner (in priestessy clothes, with her saber cub), plus shady third NE (in cool clothes - same as Illidan).
  • Content of the book connected to cover.
  • Left image showing "happier days" - i.e. pre Sundering. Which would require it to be the known group.
Any more for any more? Kirkburn talk contr 05:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You're not holding up a banana and telling me it's a banana. You're holding up a banana and telling me it's the same banana I bought last week, even though it's got none of the defining characteristics that banana had. It MIGHT be the same banana, I don't know, and neither do you. I realize that that is a night elf, a woman, and a Priestess of the Moon. That doesn't mean it's the night elf Priestess of the Moon you say it is.
And yes, you DID say something about the canon of the RPGs. You qualified that detail as "not being written by a Blizzard employee," which applies to the rest of the RPGs, as if it somehow diminishes how accurate that might be. Meanwhile, we KNOW that Blizzard is involved with the RPGs, even if they aren't physically sitting down and writing it, so I see no reason to just throw that one out.
You're right, that doesn't make it wrong. But it doesn't make it right, either, and there is TONS of speculation which isn't "wrong" that you wouldn't want posted in an article. - Parqual Fintalas
I was not disputing their "canonicity", I was saying why it might be different! You seem to believe that Blizz has tight control over absolutely everything, when it doesn't. Details change, even with the stuff Blizz does have tight rein over. You address absolutely none of my points as to why it almost certainly must be the WotA group, yet you seem to ignore all the times we address your own points. Is that fair? Kirkburn talk contr 05:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break two Edit

Waroftheancients1

Look ma no antlers

First off there is not one source predating MG that states that Frostsabers were discovered 4000 years ago. Infact they don't even bother to go into any history of that sort. The one refrence to frostsabers in WC3 manual only said they came from winterspring, nothing else. Refrences and info about frostsabers is very limited. We are discussing artwork drawn in 2004 we can't apply something written in 2007 into the equation because Samwise would not have had that info to work with, he was not a prophet, and there was no info on frostaber history at the time. You may have the use of hindsight but that is hardly reliable arguement on your part, as samwise would not had the same access to the hindsight you are trying to use, he would have only had access to sources out at that time. Next of Malfurion didn't necessarily have antlers during the war of the ancients, later sources say he didn't. It was something he earned later in his life as he became an archdruid. As for your "far from his own students" he wasn't with all his students at any given time, although we do know he had a close connection to Tyrande, Mal and Illidan and spent time with them from other sources (contemporary to the time). AGain the book does not discuss keepers, it only talks about Cenarius, his father Malorne, and his mother Elune in a huge section on "Eternals (the gods and demigods of azeroth), if you wanted Keepers at that time, that was in a seperate RPG book, Manual of Monsters."Baggins 05:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
To add to the above - it is important to remember, artwork such as this do not have to show "real" events, they are representations and ideas. Coolness almost always wins over accuracy, because - to be frank - few people care whether the colour of someone's fingernails is the correct Pantone - just that they're slashing someone's face. :) Kirkburn talk contr 05:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
So we have ONE source regarding the Frostsabers, NO contradictory sources, and yet you're telling me that the "background is inconsistent?"
And I'm not disputing that Malfurion didn't have horns at one point. I'm saying that every piece of art we have of Malfurion, including, incidentally, the only piece of Malfurion done by Samwise, he has a distinctly different style of antlers. - Parqual Fintalas
Links, links and link again. Can we get off the frostsaber argument ... it's failed, okay? Three years is a huge gap, and something we are going to ignore from now on, unless you come up with something new. Kirkburn talk contr 05:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll come up with something new when you opt to address my points with something other than "Oh that doesn't count." Why don't you follow Mikaka's advice and find something that proves you right?
Oh yeah, and "leader-like and regal poses?" She's leaning against his lap.
All your evidence could apply to ANY priestess of the moon. - Parqual Fintalas
I have addressed your points. Anyone can see I have addressed them, and so has Baggins. I am not going to repeat them, read them above. It is now YOUR turn to explain why my points are wrong. The pose is leader-like, because leaders are about the only people who aren't in 'action' pictures. Why on earth would you paint a picture of some random night elves lounging around? Kirkburn talk contr 06:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW, you said there was a christmas Malfurion, I'd beg to differ you are probably thinking of christmas Cenarius. They aren't the same characters you know...Baggins 06:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
They're wrong because you haven't proven anything. You've just spouted conjecture after conjecture. Tell me why Samwise drew Malfurion one way one time, and then distinctly different, in a notable departure from every other interpretation as well, another time. Tell me why all the characteristics you listed are unique to Tyrande and not any other priestess. Tell me why you know for certain that the Blizzard team only just now came up with their frostsaber lore.
And Baggins, you're thinking of the Christmas wallpaper with the Keeper and the Mountain King. I'm thinking of the one with Jaina and Arthas and Malfurion at a banquet table. Please don't patronize me. - Parqual Fintalas
Link, link, link, link, link, link, link, link, link. Link. And yes, I believe that was a Keeper. However [3] does help us again, as it shows that antlers are often drawn differently. Which is another of your earlier points down the drain. Are you still disputing that the image on the left is somehow not the WotA group? Kirkburn talk contr 06:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Christmas PicYou think that's a Keeper? - Parqual Fintalas

How does that have any relevance? It's Malfurion ... with horns. Drawn differently again. Kirkburn talk contr 06:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm illustrating that you can't blame the different horn styles on different artists because clearly, Malfurion's stag-antlers are not outside Samwise's repertoire. Also your link doesn't work. - Parqual Fintalas
Learn to internet? The link is fine, you just have to use it properly (i.e. new window, try removing www). And here we are returning to a theme I just addressed. Artists do not draw antlers consistently. All we can study is their existence or non-existence. Kirkburn talk contr 06:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Epicdruid

Samwise 'epic druid'

I really don't see why you're being so hostile about this. I click a link, get an error, and I'm suddenly some computer illiterate moron?
I don't see how that pic says anything about anything. Samwise draws different kinds of horns. That's delightful. However, he's drawing different kinds of horns on different characters. Why would he change styles on the same character? More to the point, if he was drawing a DIFFERENT character within the same vein, wouldn't it be prudent to change the style of horns to set them apart?
By the way, I'm done for the night. Frankly, you're becoming rather unprofessional. Even if you disagree, even if you disagree passionately, there's no need to take the tone you've been taking. Feel free to reply, because I'll return tomorrow or later, but don't expect anything tonight. - Parqual Fintalas
It was supposed to be humourous :( I apologise fully for my remark. I guess it's cause people always say that type of stuff in WoW ... besides, you posted an almost identical link just before. The discussion became unprofessional when you decided to make it personal earlier (by telling me I should have been going to bed), and then never actually responding to mine and Baggins' arguments, but always expecting us to respond fully to your own. Artists are allowed to change style, and we have no way of knowing exactly when different drawings were produced. Please do come back to the conversation, but, for goodness sake, actually respond to one of my reasons why it is them. You have failed to do so at any point during this entire discussion (apart from a single reference to one point). It's all well and good to go on and on about details we've already discussed (and, we feel, refuted), but it hardly makes it fair when the conversation is completely one-sided. Kirkburn talk contr 06:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break three Edit

To summarize so far: facial markings, irrelevant. Hair colour, irrelevant. Frostsaber lore, irrelevant. Antlers, slightly relevant - but still not convincing. For the third time, can you please tell me if you dispute the left image being the WotA group? Kirkburn talk contr 06:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a little table about if it's Tyrande. Feel free to edit. I realise it appears biased, but I have included only stuff that has not been refuted so far. Kirkburn talk contr 06:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
For Against
  • Facial markings (and most colouring) are consistent with other drawings of Tyrande (and Malfurion).
  • Body language hints at, a comfortable, long-standing partnership.
  • Appearance of correct saber beside.
  • Regal and leader-like poses, not a normal pose for random people in paintings.
  • Connection to image on left which almost certainly shows the WotA group. Male (in simple garb - same as Malfurion) and female partner (in priestessy clothes, with her saber cub), plus shady third NE (in cool clothes - same as Illidan), being taught by Cenarius-like Keeper.
  • Content of the book almost always connected to the cover (Cenarius appears in the book, Keepers don't)
  • Left image appears to show memories of "happier days" - i.e. pre-Sundering. Which would require it to be the known group. Also note the poses of the three: she's interested, one of the men is interested, and the other looks bored; identical the the attitudes of Tyrande, Mal, and Illidan
  • Antlers slightly off
As as another note, cover artwork on most if not all of the RPG books relates to what inside the books. Lands of Mystery has artwork of creatures found in Kalimdor which related main bulk of hte book. MOnster guide has various creatures found inside the book, manual of monsters is the same way. Magic & Mayhem has a runemaster fighting a steamwarrior, which were two playable units in the book, lands of conflict had a picture of trogg, warrior naga, and worgen which related to several sections in the book and eastern kingdoms. Alliance & Horde compendium has an alliance dwarf fighting a horde orc, representing the theme of the book.
Shadows & Light is and is likely the same way. It has a picture of cenarious, which relates to cenarious in the book, the book does not talk about any other "keepers", cenarius is the only creature of that type in the book, and is woven through several articles including Malfurion's. The picture also relates to Tyrande,and her tiger. There are no other night elves with tigers in the book (or any other "frostsabers" for that manner), its the only thing it could link to. Now you argued that antlered man could link to epic druid, which I will concede that could be true(it does seem to resemble samwise artwork for the "epic"), although it would beg the question why Tyrande would be in his arms if it isn't Malfurion. However it could also still be linked to Malfurion, because Malfurion is essentially the given character in the book to represent the "epic druid" class, mentioned in the book, tieing all those pieces together. Lastly, the book discusses in several places how Malfurion, Illidan, Tyrande came before the Demigod Cenarius to gain assistance, which seems to describe the event on the back cover. Finally the cover seems to fit with the theme of light and darkness, the pre-sundering picture "light" tones, the post-sundering picture much "darker" tones.
There are only specific articles that fit with samwise panorama picture, or even partially describe it, and are likely connected. Could they all just be coincidences? I really don't think so.Baggins 06:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Quick question: you do realize that all those Sons of the Storm links give you a "forbidden" message, don't you?
My two cents: the likelihood of another priestess of the moon having that kind of a relationship with a druid of sufficient powers to have antlers isn't high, if only for the reason that not all archdruids have them.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Only if you open them by clicking the links. Copy and paste them into a new window, so they're not caught by leech protection (annoying, I know). Kirkburn talk contr 13:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is quite a heated argument I see. Certainly, the images are a bunch of circumstantial evidence, none of which are complete smoking guns. However, the image brings a strong implication of what it is. The fact is, although not as definitive as straight up proof, there are simply no other options or explanations for this picture other than them being Malfurion and Tyrande. If we're going to resort to petty arguments such as, "Oh, it could be some other students who look and act exactly just like them, and it could be some other couple who are looking VERY comfortable with eachother," this discussion has pretty much ended. The haircolor is almost a non-issue if that's where we are at. Pzychotix 12:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Shadows & Light does not cover any other priestesses of the moon but Tyrande. Let me repeat that Tyrande is the only Priestess of the Moon in Shadow's and Light. Going by the date 2004 that samwise dated the picture, he definitely drew that picture specifically for Shadow's and Light, so it definitely has meaning to content of the book, it has to be connected to the material inside the book. Since the picture is one panoramic view, and smoke from the fire fades into a vision of the past, samwise definitely intended the image to have meaning. On the related issue, and no one has brought it up... But does any source specifically refer to the horns actually "growing out of Malfurion" head, or are they simply a cosmetic crown that he could switch for different styles if he wanted to (much as implied by druid armor in WoW)? Back to the picture there may be an additional symbolism to the picture between the horns of the younger Cenarious and older Malfurion. If one notices in the artwork they both share the same type of "moose" antlers. Now its implied throughout articles the book that Malfurion took on the duties that were once the job of Cenarius when he awakened, since cenarius was no longer around to continue it himself. So the symbolism in the picture, is that history has come full circle, the student Malfurion who learned under the teacher and guardian of nature, Cenarius, later became the teacher and guardian of nature himself.Baggins 13:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure in WotA it describes them physically growing out of his head (much to Tyrande and Illidan's shock). Of course, this doesn't preclude him gaining "power" over his antlers later on, but it does seem to suggest they're physically "joined" to him. Kirkburn talk contr 14:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
While I still think it was intended as symbolism to show that Malfuion had come full circle from being the student to being the teacher. I suppose if someone wanted to take the picture "literally", it could mean that his horns grew further into larger moose rack as a sign of his new position as guardian of the forest. On a side note it begs the question does he ever have to trim the horns, and do they ever fall off? LOL. In the wild antlers are broken in battle quite a bit, and are shed in mating season, and new pair grow the next year, that are larger than the last.
BTW, if people didn't know there is a huge difference between "horns" and "antlers", horns grow continously throughout life, growing ever larger, unless trimmed. They are covered with keratin much like finger nails. Antlers drop off on their own, and are replaced with a new pair, much larger than the last (each new pair will always be larger than the last, until the animal dies). Antler is made of dead-bone material. The growth shapes for both are widely different, horns are usually a single cone (some straight some spiraled), and antlers being branch-like. Additionally rhinos horns are cone-like, but aren't horns due to the fact they are made from matted hair. In all cases, artwork on cenarius, malfurion, and other keepers are based on antlers, not "horns". Not that authors, or artists get down to the nitty-gritty of biology and differences between the two.Baggins 14:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I just looked into Manual of Monsters, the book, released in 2003, is contemporary to S&L book (2004), and in that book it states about frostaber, "These proud, magnificent felines have helped the night elves against foes of all sorts since Kalimdor was first settled." That was closest any source gave to background history to the frostsabers at the time, that I know of. If samwise was basing his artwork off of written down lore that would have been a source that he had access to. Which would explain how Tyrande would have frostsaber cub when she was young, since he would have based the artwork off that kind of lore...BagginsMoM 20Baggins 15:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Since Kalimdor was "settled?" The night elves were indigenous, they never settled at all. Nevertheless, as vague as it is, it still conflicts with the Frostmaul detail, so I'll concede that point. Your table is pretty one-sided, and I've dealt with most of these points already. This is my last post on the subject, because I can see I'm not getting through to anyone here. It occurs to me that few of you actually understood what I was trying to argue.

  • "Facial markings (and most colouring) are consistent with other drawings of Tyrande (and Malfurion)."
    • Like I said before, the facial markings are present only in two representations of Tyrande. There are more versions of her without them than with them, and they are not unique to her.
  • "Body language hints at, a comfortable, long-standing partnership."
    • Something not exclusive to Tyrande and Malfurion.
  • "Appearance of correct saber beside."
    • Frostsabers are standard-issue for Priestesses of the Moon.
  • "Regal and leader-like poses, not a normal pose for random people in paintings."
    • I don't see what's regal or leader-like about their pose. Seriously, they're almost cuddling. He's sitting by a fire, and she's leaning into him. Explain to me how this is regal and leader-like and not befitting "random people."
  • "Connection to image on left which almost certainly shows the WotA group. Male (in simple garb - same as Malfurion) and female partner (in priestessy clothes, with her saber cub), plus shady third NE (in cool clothes - same as Illidan), being taught by Cenarius-like Keeper."
    • I especially like "Cenarius-like Keeper." Find me a Keeper who isn't Cenarius-like. I don't really see what's "priestessy" about her robes. They're just robes. And nothing about their clothing, again, is anything exclusive to them.
  • "Content of the book almost always connected to the cover (Cenarius appears in the book, Keepers don't)"
    • But while the cover connects to the content, this would be the only instance of the cover depicting specific characters and not simply archetypes. The book deals with epic player characters as well. That druid looks more like Samwise's generic epic druid than his previous iteration of Malfurion. The book also deals with the Emerald Dream and its denizens. And again, that could be Cenarius, and it still wouldn't mean that those night elves are Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan.
  • "Left image appears to show memories of "happier days" - i.e. pre-Sundering. Which would require it to be the known group. Also note the poses of the three: she's interested, one of the men is interested, and the other looks bored; identical the the attitudes of Tyrande, Mal, and Illidan"
    • But not unique to them.

For the record, I have been calm and composed throughout this discussion. I realize the naivete of having a discussion on the Internet and expecting all the parties to act like human beings, but here we are. Meanwhile, you've been attacking me and my posts, been insulting and hostile, and frankly, you've shown no indication that you ever really considered my points at all. I never said you should go to bed. I asked "Weren't you going to bed?" because you said you were going to bed. This may have been a heated discussion, but the heat was all on one side. So while I'm sure you've written me off as a lost cause already, just be aware that you've dealt with this poorly, and I suggest, for your own sake and integrity, that you rethink your approach in the future. - Parqual Fintalas

Again, there are no other Keepers or Priestesses of the Moon in Shadows and Light, the sections in the book that even comes close to those subjects are exclusively about Tyrande, and Cenarius. As for "Archdruids" and "Epic druids", the book has a section on epic druids, however the info in the rest of the book about the subject is exclusively about Malfurion himself. A few of the articles in the book describe what happens in the cover, especially in Malfurion's article. Sorry, but I think are you grasping at straws, and have hardly put up any strong evidence (largely nitpicks and apparently limited knowledge of the source material) to strengthren your viewpoint or give your thoughts any sense of credibility.
"Since Kalimdor was "settled?" The night elves were indigenous, they never settled at all. Nevertheless, as vague as it is, it still conflicts with the Frostmaul detail, so I'll concede that point"
Actually first Night Elves at one time didn't exist, some time later they were born from exposure to the well of eternity, when a primitive race (some say trolls, but it could have been anything). When they "came" into being they started settling areas in Kalimdor, so yes the info is correct if a bit vague. Hoewver, the poiint is that the Frostmaul detail never existed at the time S&L, and Manual of Monsters were written, at that time the was the only info that Samwise had to go on. The frost giant info is quite new and original only released in 2007, and never mentioned in any earlier source. Yes I'm quite aware that its inconsistent with the older info. I mentioned that above in an earlier post. You wanted a quote proving that showed that that the new source was inconsistent with previous sources. ....or rather new source is a brand new retcon to what was said in earlier sources(although that's irrelevent since at the time the artwork was drawn for S&L, he only had the original info to work with).Baggins 16:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note to agree with Baggins here - night elves were not "original" creatures, and did not occupy the whole of Kalimdor. So yes, they are perfectly capable of "settling". Kirkburn talk contr 16:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You have not been personally attacked. Your arguments have been attacked - this is a completely different thing. You may feel you have been calm and composed throughout the discussion, but all we had was frustration from you refusing to answer our points, but expecting us to answer all yours. The fact that your dispute the left image is of the WotA group frankly amazes me. The only argument of yours that has so far stood up is a problem with the antler design. Nothing else. Your only response to our points to why it is them is to say that everything could be a coincidence! Yes, it certainly could, as could almost every other image on this wiki. Maybe everyone has several identical twins that the artists insist on drawing ... We cannot get categorical proof of every single image being of their subject, as many pictures are not given explicit labels ... this is an excellent example. We have to work using the balance of probabilities, and I'm really not seeing it swinging away from being Tyrande, etc. Kirkburn talk contr 16:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Just another point about inconsistency - as noted on Talk:Sylvanas Windrunner#Picture Suggestion, it is obvious that major lore characters are not drawn consistently. Kirkburn talk contr 16:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Or how about Shadow and Light's two versions of Khadgar?Baggins 16:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Khad1

Khadgar from S&L

Khad2

Khadgar from S&L

Arbitrary break four (discussion originally from Baggins' talk page) Edit

So aside from the Manual of Monsters entry I forgot (which I acknowledged the moment you brought it up) how exactly did I demonstrate "limited knowledge of the source material?" I never said anything that was incorrect or uninformed throughout that discussion and your attempt to weaken my position by attacking my knowledge base, frankly, demeans the whole wiki. Whether or not you agree with my point, I do know what I'm talking about, and I gave you no reason to question that. - Parqual Fintalas

One you seem to think that the book covers "Priestesses of the Moon", Wrong. It does not. You seemed to think that th book covers "Keeper", wrong it does not. You questioned the "Ash'alah" name, wrong, you lacked that knowledge as well. You seemed to be unaware that book describes the scene in the panoramic picture in a few places including Malfuriona's article, that would seem your knowledge of that article wa slimited as well. Please, stop with the victim fallacy... You may think its an attack but I'm just commenting on your limited knowledge of those particular points... I could ahve said you were ignorant of those points but that would ahve been stronger words, and you would have had a justifiable reason to think I attacked you... But "limited knowledge of a "specific" source material is not.Baggins 16:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Where did I ever say that S&L covers Priestesses or Keepers? Where did I question Ash'alah? Hell, look at my contribs. I CORRECTED a statement on Tyrande's page that said her cat was unnamed. Parqual Fintalas 16:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Er ... yes, that's because you saw it on the talk page [4]. Kirkburn talk contr 16:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. So what if I saw it and so adjusted the article accordingly? Where did I question the name Ash'alah? More to the point where did I say anything that Baggins has cited as his grounds to question my knowledge base? Parqual Fintalas 17:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was a bad edit - I'm grateful for it! Just don't try and pass it off as 'proving' your knowledge. Edit: I see your point now. Not sure what he means. >.< Ah, I see now ... Baggins, Ragestorm added the {{fact}}. Kirkburn talk contr 17:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
First off, cover art on most if not all of the RPG books always has to do with material covered in the book, either through symbolism or direct reference. You would be hard pressed to find one example of something that doesn't have any relation to contents of a book, from a cover of any RPG book. You claimed that it probably another "keeper" or another "priestess", when the book only covers one priestess, "Tyrande", and only covers one stag-man, "Cenarius", and the event covered on the cover is described inside the book itself. Are you questioning that?
I mean answer truthly have you actually read the book, or are you just feigning to have? In anycase some of your comments in that thread seem contradictory to what is actually covered in the book.Baggins 17:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Edit:Ah sorry about the Ash'alah mix up. However, you admited you didn't get from the book, but from the talk page eh?Baggins 17:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Like what? Find me a comment that conflicts with something in the book. And don't use the cover, because you're taking for granted the fact that you're right about who's on it. That event is only covered in the book if those people are who you say they are. Parqual Fintalas 17:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
1. You said it could be another keeper. This is unlikely as that would be saying that the cover has nothing to do with the material in the book. Which would go against the Whitewolf's standard policy of making sure the covers of each book has stuff relevent to the material in the book.
2. You said it oculd be another priestess. Which would go against the Whitewolf's standard policy of making sure the covers of each book has stuff relevent to the material in the book.
Both of your claims I have to say are highly unlikely based on evidence of Whitewolf's policy. It would be highly unlikely that they would deviate from their standard pratices. Frankly trying to imply that they have with that book, when material in the book certainly corresponds as far as descriptions go, is act of denial. I'm sorry but it can't be a huge "coincidence", that kind of "coincidence" is highly improbable, and would require someone to throw out logic to come to that conclusion...Baggins 17:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It's also common practice of Whitewolf to put generic characters on their covers and not specific ones. Thematically, if all the characters are generic archetypes on the cover of S&L, it still relevant to the kind of epic mystical time-spanning content the book covers. I don't see why White Wolf tossing out one common practice is so unlikely when another is not. However again, these are just disagreements you're having with my position, and in no way reflects a lack of knowledge on my part. I said nothing that contradicts with the source material, just your view of Whitewolf's MO. Yet you claimed once that I had limited knowledge of the book, and then, when I CALLED YOU ON IT, you questioned if I had read the book at all. Imagine yourself on the receiving end of that, and then try to tell me you wouldn't be royally pissed off. Parqual Fintalas 17:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
In all cases where they use "generic archtypes" its because the books themselves didn't have a major theme for any "major-well known characters, villains, dieties or heroes". They had generic themes like, "places", "organizations", "magic", "technology", and "warfare", "Classes", but not specific people. If they had shown specific characters they would have been breaking their policy of showing material relevant to those books, since the books were not about specific beings.
Funny you should say that, because in all of the books narrated by specific character Brann Bronzebeard, he has not appeared on the cover.
Shadows & Light is the special case, in that the entire book is about specific people, villains, heroes, and gods. Its not about keepers, its not about priestesses, the closest thing that even comes close being aobut "druids" is that it covers archtype of "Epic Druids" (although that was not the main theme of the book). The main them is Shadows and Light, "Good and evil" was "Goodguys and Badguys"). The relevance of the book is about major "heroes" of the universe, dieties, and villains. Again in order to keep their policy of keeping covers relevent to the material inside, they would do the artwork relating to things dealing with Dieties, historical heroes or villains, which it does. Again it would take a strange stretch and toss out of logic to think they would break their policy of maintaining covers that match the content of their books.Baggins 17:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Funny you should say that, because in all of the books narrated by specific character Brann Bronzebeard, he has not appeared on the cover. But again, we're just arguing over White Wolf's MO, which is all just opinion.
In any case, this isn't about that. (Evidently someone thinks it is, because they moved it back here.) This is about YOU questioning MY knowledge, and then making stuff up to support your behavior.Parqual Fintalas 17:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

In anycase there is far more evidence stacking up suggesting that the cover is related to the content in the book, than there is evidence suggesting otherwise (that the material is not related in whole or in part, to the content in the book).Baggins 17:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you? All I'm telling you is that it's a guess. There IS evidence against and that's all it should take. You keep replying that it's a good guess, and I agree, but a good guess is just a guess. And I thought the whole idea here was to post facts and confirmations, not the best guesses we have. Parqual Fintalas 17:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You are the one that isn't getting it, you are "guessing" that its not, and yet you haven't once put up strong bit of evidence (barring nitpicking about antlers) that it is not.Baggins 17:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm guessing it's not. I've never indicated otherwise. However, that doesn't mean you AREN'T guessing. Nowhere does it state who they are, and so, it could be anyone. Anyone includes Tyrande, Malfurion, and Cenarius. It also includes anyone else.
But, for the last time, I'm done arguing about that, because it's not getting anyone anywhere. This is about your comments regarding me, which you fabricated facts to support, and HAVE YET to admit that you were totally out of line to do so. Parqual Fintalas 18:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To be frank (and a little hawkeye tossed in... :p) the covers of War of the Ancients never specifically say mention who the characters are on the covers. The picturs of Illidan, Brox, Tyrande, Mal, Rhonin, Kras" etc, could be "anyone" if we used your logic of "coincidences". It would be a huge leap in those cases as well, due to mounted evidence that they are those charcters, even if we aren't told explicitely. Hell, the majority of artwork by blizzard, that intended to show "specific characters" are never given specific labels for each character.... So if we followed your curious "sense of logic" we could ignore most if not all artwork, Blizzard has ever done.[[Baggins 17:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's try this again: I'm not arguing about that anymore. Parqual Fintalas 18:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Admit your damn loss then.IconSmall BloodElf2 MaleAPΘLLΘ(ZEUS) 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Look, you showed up late. I stopped arguing about this. However I wanted to address some comments Baggins made about me, and he dragged it back here. I did not want to re-engage this debate, because it's not getting us anywhere. Baggins is begging the question, and I can't seem to get him to understand that that's the case, so I'm not going to try anymore. I'm just calling him on his bullshit. Parqual Fintalas 18:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
It is not your job to tell someone they aren't allowed to respond. It might be "late" for you, but not for most other people in the wiki. Baggins' comments were relevant to the discussion - perhaps it would have been best to have put them as a different discussion, but they were certainly relevant. Kirkburn talk contr 18:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually your the one that has been "begging the question" from the get go, even from your initial post on this subject... So I'll be the umpteenth person to call you on your bullcrap...Baggins 18:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I can see how you'd think that since you obviously have no concept of the nature of my argument.
I guess getting an admission or apology from you when you're clearly out of line is like getting blood from a stone WHILE beating a dead horse (possibly, with the stone). I hope we never have to interact again. You're a disservice to the Internet. Good day. Parqual Fintalas 18:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Fun, it seems he missed the "apology" given in a post a long while back. Now he claims I never apoligized for accusing him of making a "fact check" he never did. Whatever. But I'll guess he'll never apologize for claiming what I said is "bullshit" or that "i'm a disservice ot the in internet?", among other things... Ad Hominem much? ya I'm pointing at the person making one of the greatest fallacies known to man. But what can I say, he doesn't believe me I don't believe him. Its a matter of agreeing ot disagree...Baggins 18:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Wow. You appear to feel that it's fine to insult others, even when they aren't insulting you (though you keep accusing them of such). I have more than once explained why the burden of proof is on you, and more than once explained why we have to use the balance of probabilities to say who is in a picture. We understand your arguement fully, and we keep responding to it ... but apparently not in terms you like. This is unfortunate, but is unlikely to change. Kirkburn talk contr 18:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Antlers

Malfurion's Antlers in Warcraft III final cutscene.

I think I'll add a few more observances from further research, and going back to Warcraft III. First off, I'll mention that in the christmas art, no characters are specifically named. I doubt that guy in it is Malfurion, its more likely that the druid in the picture is just some other druid (as he looks nothing like Malfurion from Warcraft III). Infact the guy looks quite a bit like a basic "Druid of the Talon" (seen in Warcraft III), rather than Malfurion, "druids of the talon" have the the verticle horns that stick straight up from the night elf's head, like pronghorns, and they wear leaf like clothing, just like the night elf in the christmas pic.
Druidtalon

A Druid of the Talon, WC3.

Malfurion in Warcraft 3 does not look like the night elf in the christmas pic at all. Infact in Warcraft 3, ingame Malfurion is shown in two different ways, his ingame model has a low-poly grey antlers that stick out to the left and the right of his head horizontally(rather than vertical), unlike the antlers in the christmas picture you assumed was Malfurion. Even more important is his appearince in the final cutscene which shows him to have rather "moose/deer-like antlers" again sticking out the side of his head horizontally, quite a bit similar to the antlers on the cover of Shadows & Light. His antlers in the cutscene are much different than that talon-like druid in the christmas picture you assumed was Malfurion (who I still say is probably a standard Druid of the Talon, considering he looks nothing like malfurion in Warcraft 3).Baggins 06:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The animated picture is an older model. Bring up Warcraft 3 and examine a druid of the talon, and you'll see that they actually don't have horns at all. The original model for the druid of the talon was of them shirtless in a feathered kilt. But after the Arch-Druid was nixed as a hero, they used that model for the DotT for a while without modifying it, during production. However the final release DotT had no horns. As for Malfurion's appearance in the final movie, while yes they stick out of the side of his head, they're still pretty stag-like in structure. A good picture is here, and you can see there's nothing really moosey going on. The in-game Malfurion from Warcraft III has always been a strange anomaly, not just because of the different horns, which look more bovine than anything else, but also because his hair is light blue, whereas every other iteration, without exception, to my knowledge, shows him with dark green hair, including the final movie.
I'm not trying to start anything, but if you're willing to take it for granted that Twilight of the Immortals is Malfurion, I would think the Christmas picture is a gimme. Either way, though, that's not a druid of the talon. Parqual Fintalas 15:36, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I do believe the druid in [Image:Illidan Stormrage.jpg]]ges/samwise/WarCraft_Samwise046c_Large.jpg] to be Malfurion, but it's an odd image - only Jaina and Arthas can be pinned with certainty. Why couldn't he do them all as famous characters :/ Kirkburn talk contr 21:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Break SixEdit

Spirit of Stormrage
Speaking of Antlers look at these babies on old Mal. Certainly appears to be a progression from the antlers he was shown with in Shadows & Light. At least in size, and going away from his original appearances.Baggins (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
It would seem that everyone has attempted to tackle this subject with either mathematical/logical conjectures or petty arguments. While both make for colorful discussion both are irrelevant and have yet to provide the wowwiki community with insight on the topic. I think the first mistake participants of this discussion made were trying to use logic based arguments on a piece of fine art. The visual arts are just that; an art not a science. Making art that can withstand the scrutiny of a developing and retconning company and plot line are nigh impossible. Art is intuitive, expressive, and symbolic. It is obvious this piece was never made with the driving motivation to withstand the scrutiny of 'canon' wielding puritans. It is common to analyze a piece of art work using Jungian ideals like the following; When observing an archetype symbol with no orbiting identifiers it is accurate to support the correlation that identifies the archetype symbol as the original default or the most widely assumed identity. Following this thesis it's safe for the viewer to identify those figures as their default archetypes. e.x. Cenarius, Tyrande, Malfurian, Illidian, Ash'alah. While assuming that the characters on the cover of Shadows & Light are the ones aforementioned may be a choice that is technically untestable it is still the best choice. Trying to make a sound argument that they aren't is an exercise in futility. Discussing the legitimacy of either choice makes people doubt the quality of the image as an aid which I find disappointing. The cover of Shadows & Light is a beautiful piece of artwork in my opinion and is an excellent visual example of the characters it depicts. Jurisprudence 05:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

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