Template talk:Races

From WoWWiki

Contents 1 Playable links 2 Sentience 3 Undead? 4 Playable? 5 Highborn elf 6 Northrend 7 Mechagnome 8 Criteria 9 Sub-sections 10 Overhaul 11 Dragons and more 12 Sapient and sentient races 13 Elementals 14 Adding more "races" 15 Spelling 16 Don't add D&D-like races from the RPG 17 Protection?? 18 Giants 19 Lower case 20 Azeroth 21 Goblins and Worgen 22 Messy Template 23 Gilgoblin

Playable links

So I added by the "playable" links in the spirit of distinguishing WoW specific stuff from general or other game stuff, but people removed it. Aren't the playable links WoW-specific? -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:01 PM PST 29 May 2008

The orc (playable) article for example is WoW specific ya. Ironforge dwarves isn't necessarily. I'm still debating the idea of standardizing all the player race pages with "race" (playable), to make them all general WoW specific articles. In which case the lore more or less can be left off the page for some of them and mainly be the player information. Although just the briefest of lore information from the WoW manual would be decent.Baggins (talk) 05:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I honestly think they clutter the template, which I'm sure was gourra's idea as well. I see the issue "Playable" as well, however. --Sky (t · c · w) 05:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

True. Although I think that's why we have two templates the one for "race links" and the one for "races". race links is specifically playable races.Baggins (talk) 05:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Sentience

Sentience is often defined as the ability to experience suffering (wikipedia:Sentience) - it's not really what we're going for here. This template is probably better defined as "races with cultures", or, races that have some semblance of higher intelligence - self-aware, inner thoughts, etc. Kirkburn  talk  contr 13:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Would wikipedia:Sapience be a better term? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I do agree, I will alter the template now. Kirkburn  talk  contr 13:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Undead?

Shouldn't the Undead (Playable) part be changed to Forsaken (Playable)? Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:08, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Or even better, just Forsaken. As far as I know there is only one faction of Forsaken, so it can't be confused with anything else. Jormungand01 (talk) 10:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Playable?

Why doesn't Gnome, Night elf, or Tauren have Playable after them? Rolandius (talk - contr) 10:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Because with them pretty much the entire race is part of the same nation. The closest you could get to independant Night Elves is the Cenarion Circle, whose leader Staghelm is nevertheless subserviant to Tyrande, and Tauren, while scattered among many different tribes, all answer to Cairne Bloodhoof who helped save them from the centaurs. Whereas for Orcs there is also the Dark Horde in Blackrock Mountain and the Fel Horde in Outland, plus the Mag'har, and for Humans there is Dalaran, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, Theramore and all the other nations, just for starters. Although I am surprised that it isn't Gnomes (playable), especially since most of them are now Leper Gnomes wandering Gnomeregan. Jormungand01 (talk) 10:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Leper gnome != gnome. gOurra[T҂C] 10:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

They could still be called gnomes, just gnomes affected by radiation poisoning and who have gone insane. Jormungand01 (talk) 11:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand now. That would mean Undead really should say Forsaken (Playable) as there are the Forsaken, Scourge, and I am not sure how many other Undead factions running around WoW. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The links for troll, orc, human etc. appear in the ally/horde columns. To me this seems to suggest that ALL trolls are part of the horde, and some are playable. Shouldn't we move the generic races out the ally/horde factions, and just put a link to the darkspear etc.? so it would look something like this:

Horde Darkspear Troll Azeroth Troll

Cowlinator (talk)

Well when you pick your race in WoW you have the choice of Orc, Troll, etc. This template follows that but then also has the "Playable Race" link to tell you which specific group you are playing within that race. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Highborn elf

I am not sure if "Highborn elf" should be a seperate race. Weren't they more of a seperate caste but still called Queldorei? I mean there were a lot of people using the power of the Well who were not Highborne. Also, if we make Highborne, which was a caste, into a race then we would have to make the nobles into a seperate race too since they were not commoner Queldorei nor Highborne Queldorei, yet some used the power of the Well. I don't think the "major" racial differences between the Highborne and the rest of the night elves hit a peak until the exile of the Highborne from Kalimdor. They then landed on the continent now known as the Eastern Kingdoms and became the High elves. The High elves would be the seperate race not the Highborne elves. I might be wrong but I don't think anyone has been described as being of the "Highborne race" as many times as characters being described as being of the "Night elf race", the "Quedorei race", or the High elf race". Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, not a race, I do not oppose removal from the template, unless we can find a more roundabout way of listing them. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you know how many characters on WoWWiki have Highborne as a race? I am not sure how to find out. If it turns out to be zero or something then we do not have to find a way of listing them at all I would guess. Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, clearly Highborne is not a separate race. Thus, they don't belong in this infobox. --Imperialles 07:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Northrend

How about creature from Northrend will they be included in Azeroth since is the same world but a different continent or should it be a different section for them?--Phoenics 05:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess if there are any new races not already in the template they will be added. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

They should already be under Azeroth, though it might be an idea to split the continents at some point (Kalimdor, EK, all). Probably best to knock up a test version to see how well that works though, first. Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What if one race is on two or three continents though, we would end up repeating a lot of races. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You'd have an Azeroth section, and then subsections for each continent where a creature appears on only one of them. Kirkburn  talk  contr 15:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Most races are native to one continent anyway, so even if they are now found in other places they should still go under whatever their homeland is.  Jormungand01  (talk - contr) 16:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What about races like ice trolls? They are in Northrend and the Eastern Kingdoms. Also, the murlocs are everywhere and didn't really originate form one place unless you include the oceans. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Most races. Obviously it will have to depend on the case, but for some, such as Ice Trolls which are mostly in Northrend with only a handful in Eastern Kingdoms, they would go wherever the larger population is. As for murlocs, even though they don't originate from Kalimdor they have been known of there for far longer than in the Eastern Kingdoms. Or there could be a seperate Great Sea category. The only races I can think of which would not fit are the dragonkin ones, but they have never really been limited to any one continent.  Jormungand01  (talk - contr) 12:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Mechagnome

Wouldn't Mechagnomes be more of a machine type race? Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Criteria

In the interests of navigability, this template might need an overhaul. I don't particularly like the idea of linking RPG-only races whose articles are only a few sentences, but as they are sapient, there isn't major grounds for removal. So, stricter criteria or reorganization? Thoughts? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 06:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I think there are a few more that could be added but it is already too big. One criteria could be "is there at least one individual of that race in World of Warcraft currently". The only thing is that this would have meant that some races like the Titans would not have been able to be added because we didn't see one individual of that race until Wrath of the Lich King came out. I don't think we saw any Titans before Wrath of the Lich King? Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

No, the titans were strictly in lore. That's a fairly good criterion, though it would leave out a few on this list. I would say that the race must be present in WoW at the moment, or that the race has enough information on it for people to bother navigating to it. And I really, really, don't think that Bunnies should be on the list. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

When you say lore doesn't that mean RPGs too? Or do you mean lore in the games? Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

By "lore" in that case I meant they never actually appeared as characters in any source. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we should remove all the races that only appear in Appendix Three of Manual of Monsters and which have not been mentioned anywhere else. Dakovski (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; there's no way to keep all races that one NPC/mob/character can be. We have categories for that. gOurra[T҂C] 13:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should have "Dragon" as a race only and not "Black dragon", "Black wyrm", "Red dragon", "Green dragon", etc. Black, Green, etc. are dragonflights and wyrm is a growth stage. Rolandius (talk - contr) 13:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you a bit hypocritical now? You're the one who added it in the first place. gOurra[T҂C] 20:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Added what? I didn't add black dragon etc. in the infobox for characters. Only when you reverted my edits and put black dragon, red dragon, etc. did I put them into the race template to match your reverts. Now you came up with Black wyrm. So should I add to the race template Black wyrm? Are we going to say Human adult or Human newborn are races too? Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

You are the one who added it to the template. Stop playing stupid. gOurra[T҂C] 12:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I said I added it to the template after seeing your example. You know? The part where you changed dragon to red dragon, black dragon, etc. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:25, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Sub-sections

Should there be sub-sections in the Azeroth Category? It is quite long. -- Airiph/T/C/B 14:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

See #Criteria. gOurra[T҂C] 14:26, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

This thing is huge ugly, and doesn't need to list minor races.

Infact I'd suggest breaking the template apart into seperate templates based on region rather than race. Have one template for Eastern Kingdoms, one for Western Kingdoms, one for Northrend, and one for Outland.Baggins (talk) 00:31, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Some races are on numerous continents and others are unknown so I'd say organize them by bipeds, quadrupeds etc. Also get rid of Dragons, there not humanoids.  Airiph/T/C/B 00:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Not geography, that'll get far too complicated. And the template's purpose isn't humanoid races, it's sapient races. I would recommend removing races like the bunnies. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

ya, really really obscure things should be removed. If it doesn't appear in more than one source then it shouldn't be listed.Baggins (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and did an overhaul of it see User:Coobra/sandbox6 and give your opinions.... I ended up removing mostly all the creatures that had only a small mention, along with half-breed races. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 04:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the races we end up having on the final template, could we match it with the race infobox and race category so it doesn't look crazy? Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Not all banshees or satyrs are former elves I thought? Also, dark troll? You mean dark elf? Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I merely copied what was there... As I see it, dark elves are pure speculation whereas dark trolls appeared... at least in WC3.

What do you mean by matching it with the race infobox? Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 22:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No I mean dark trolls shouldn't be with the "Elf" ones it should be with the "Troll" ones right?

What I mean by matching with the race infobox is that, if we allow a certain race to be put into an article's infobox where it says race=whatever, that race should also be recognized by being in the race template right? Pretty much what I am saying is that, for example, lets say there is a race called "abc". The "abc" race should be able to found by users in the "sapient race template", "Burning Legion template", or "Undead template" depending what kind of race it is, the "race category", and if there is someone of that race also in the "race infobox" of their article correct? Rolandius (talk - contr) 01:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Dragons and more

Are we adding all the dragon races on here or just "dragon"? Also, what do we do with other races that have a lot of subraces like golems and mountain giants? I added the golem and mountain giant races on here, but some are red and I am not sure if everyone thinks they are races or not, but I thought they should be here if they are actual races. For instance, we have every subrace of elf, dwarf, gnome, troll, ogre, etc. on here so I am guessing that goes for golems and mountain giants too. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Sapient and sentient races

If golems are going to be added to the template people better have a good citation where golems have been described as sapient or sentient. For that matter it seems the purpose of this template has been stretched beyond the definition of sapient or sentient. Not all races are sapient nor sentient and those do not belong in the template.

In fact I suggest golems should probably get their own template.

Also what's up with the links to the names of skins for models? Unless the terms are specifically used in quest text or show up in another source, or are used for a unique model (which can not be merged into a related article in some way), then they shouldn't be on the list.Baggins (talk) 05:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

On the skins thing, "stone giant" and "hill giant" are treated as types of mountain giants so why not the others, or at least some of the others? Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Stone giant is a term mentioned specifically within several quests and they appear as actual in-game mobs. Said mobs are also referred to as "mountain giants" in a similar fashion as the Colossi within certain in-game lore text. The fact that the term is referenced by model name or skin names, and in other sources are additions to the quest text that specify particular stone giants. One of the "unique models" referred as stone giant in the files doesn't even have a specific model name, other than "stone giant", and is thus merged into the stone giant article.

Hill giants however are not referenced within any quest text nor do they appear in-game as a specific mob (therefore the datamined information cannot be considered reliable). Hill giants are not treated as a type of mountain giant because of this. However the fact that hill giant appears in files is noted as a bit of trivia, and its noted that the information about specific models that use the skin are listed, but they are specified to be "mountain giants" until something confirms existence that skin refers to actual hill giants. The fact is we don't actually know what S&L reference to Hill Giant had in mind. Probably something closer to whatever D&D source it was referencing.

But why should I even have to explain this?Baggins (talk) 06:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

So how many number of sources, or number of types of sources, should a term have before it is a "race" and can be put on the template? The criteria is sort of lacking. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Its not about the quantity of sources, but the quality of the source (has the information been confirmed in a published source or stated in-game?). If a unique model doesn't have any specific in-game reference (stating the name of the creature) and can't be merged into some other related article then it would be ok to create an original article based on model/skin names. This has been allowed for a few cases, see flesh titan for example. The moment an official term appears for that model it is subject to be moved to the established name (although in some cases a model or skin name may be confirmed by ingame or published text).Baggins (talk) 06:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Scourge gnome comes to mind. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Scourge gnome wasn't even properly cited. Its not even the model or skin name. I'm not sure where the term "scourge gnome" originated. My guess someone made it up based on something else.Baggins (talk) 06:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

That is my point. "Scourge gnome" is on the Undead race template because it was similiar to "Scourge troll", but if it isn't a race... Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Your analogy is a broken. Unlike the so called "Scourge gnome", the term "Scourge troll" has actually originally appeared in a published source. The RPG specifically states the term, and gives background lore for the creature within the Alliance Player's guide.

However, I do not know what the name of models are for the new undead troll models that appear in-game. However whoever merged the model into the scourge troll article is justified by the fact that the term "scourge troll" existed in a previously published source. Thus nothing was invented out of thin air.Baggins (talk) 06:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not saying Scourge troll was invented, I am saying it seemed like Scourge gnome was being treated the same as Scourge troll on here so it was on the Undead template. I have taken it off now though. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Elementals

Do elemental races go here or is there an Elemental template for them? Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding more "races"

Before you add more things to the template, please talk here why you want to add it. We can't possibly have every single existing race that's mentioned in this template. Please be rational. --gOurra[T҂C] 09:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Many doubles in :

- Dragon is fine

- Giant should be alone instead of all the giant types

- Same thing goes for the Golem

- Same thing goes for the Eredar

- Same thing goes for the Earthen

- No need to put Half-breed, if we put all the half-breeds in the template

- Sand Gnome must be written with CAPS "G", like the article name

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk) 09:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Races aren't capitalized though. Rolandius (talk - contr) 09:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Then the article itself should be renamed

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk) 10:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Spelling

The race is called "Broken Lost Ones" not "Broken Lost One". Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't add D&D-like races from the RPG

Recently G0urra removed a bunch of races from the template. He did this because they were weakly supported races that are not really from the Warcraft universe, but were introduced as usable in the Warcraft RPG (most likely from Manual of Monsters, Appendix III).

Please do not add races to the template that only appear in a single source of lore, especially if it is not mentioned anywhere other than the RPG. --Beware the sneaky smile! Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:28 PM PST 11 May 2009

It's kind of hard to edit the template anyway as it's protected - and for a good reason. --gOurra[T҂C] 06:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Protection??

Why is this template Protected for no reason. There isn't any conflict war as show in the Template History. This is totally stupid protection consider that Gourra itself is an administrators and making Original Research claims based on his own opinion.

The fact is they are thousand of games nowadays based on D&D and Scandinavian mythology, he should know better that Folklore Mythology, European Mythology and Mythical Beasts are already considered as part of game design trend / style in the gaming industries. This is part of the evolution of Game Culture (due to Technology Modernizations) and great contributions of interactive computing gaming ideas. So its either he accepts it or don't edit Wikis at all. Not to mention Wikipedia even approve Template:Speculative fiction and didn't considered it as crufting.

BTW interactive computing ain't a made up term, look up Holograms (Nvision 3D glass) and Wii remote yourself.

So I don't think I need to ramble on anymore....my finals word for your Gourra is: mature up. --Ramu50 (talk) 01:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

And how exactly would it benefit you if the template was unprotected? --gOurra[T҂C] 07:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

First your template protection already violated Wikia policy for abusing adminship. You protected the templates with personal reasons (which are irrelevant and unconstrucutive, even more so relentless violating the process of consensus.). So specifically you yourself should have no position in stating any excuses for this action of consequences. Moreso, the contents you removed, some of them exists in WoWWiki (e.g. Bunny & Devil (Gorgon), that accounts for irresponsible and immature editing. Not to mention your response was interpreting as "beneficial." Thus why the hell should we even trust you to be smart editor & administrator, when you pose from a bias editor viewpoint, meaningless to say that any of your contributions would otherwise be considered responsible. --Ramu50 (talk) 01:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

You're very insulting for someone new here. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^(T•C) 01:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Is this a trial? Are you an official "Wikia.com" admin/dev?

This template was protected, because some (and me as a part of "some") added races that where more sub-species than race.

Over 20 new one in less than a day, it needed a check&clear.

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't a give a f**k to people who doesn't give a sh*t about not following the policy. So what if you added a stub. That is the process of editing. Just because somebody added 20 edits in a day, therefore? you think you have the common sense to make everything perfect by protecting the template? They are at least 50 other Nothrend related creatures that haven't been added here, have you considered that fact?

Protecting the template just for a stupid excuses and thinking other people edits doesn't matter. Thats very smart of you to think so high of yourself.

--Ramu50 (talk) 14:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Just for your information, this is not Wikipedia, so we do not necessarily follow the policies of Wikipedia. We follow the policies of Wikia.

That said the races you mentioned (Bunny and Devil) are not considered to be canon. Just because there are some vague references about them it doesn't make it canon. There aren't "50 other Northrend related creatures" that aren't already covered by main races in the template (except maybe Revenant). There's no need to put every single race and/or species in the template. --gOurra[T҂C] 15:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you're gonna talk like you're better then Gourra, at least work on your grammar a little plz. "Protecting the template just for a stupid excuse" is much more convincing then "Protecting the template just for a stupid excuses". Big, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 16:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Giants

I see mountain giant, storm giant, and then no more giant races? Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Lower case

Somehow "Sand Gnome" is capitalized? Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I love how sand gnomes are a race... And how they pop up so completely randomly in the game. It's like the leprechaun of warcraft.  Howbizr^(t·c) 12:25 AM, 25 Jul 2009 (EDT)

I know, it just has to be lower case. :) Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Azeroth

Can an admin change "Azeroth" for "[[Azeroth (world)|Azeroth]]". Thanks in advance. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 19:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^(T•C) 20:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Goblins and Worgen

Shouldn't we be moving Goblins and Worgen to "Alliance" and "Horde" by now? I mean, they're officially confirmed as playable races in Cataclysm. Severin Andrews 19:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

For one thing, you seem to ascribe to us superhuman or computerized speed we are not quite capable of- for another, an argument could be made that they will not be joining the Alliance and Horde until Cataclysm is released (not that I'm making that argument for this template, I'm just saying)--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Severin, I'm not sure what you're talking about... they were already moved at 16:13, August 21, 2009. Almost a whole 24hrs before you asked. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^(T•C) 20:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

First of all, sorry, I didn't want to sound rude, if I sounded like that. And then, when I was posting that, I couldn't see Goblins and Worgen in there. Strange. Sorry for the mess. ;) Severin Andrews 21:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Messy Template

The azeroth part of this template is so messy, this should be simplified someway, i propose to at least organise some of the races more or less like this:

v • d • e Sapient races and species Azeroth Ancient · Cenarius (Centaur, Dryad, Frost nymph, Keeper of the Grove,Nymph) · Dwarf (Bronzebeard dwarf, Dark Iron dwarf, Earthen, Frostborn, Iron dwarf, Ironforge dwarf, Trogg, Wildhammer dwarf) · Dragon (Dragonspawn, Drakonid, Skardyn) · Elf(Blood Elf, High elf, Night Elf, Wretched, Satyr) · Furbolg(Corrupted furbolg) · Gnome (Leper gnome, Mechagnome, Sand Gnome) · Giant (Mountain giant, Storm giant, Sea Giant) · Gnoll · Goblin (Hobgoblin) · Grell · Harpy · Half-elf · Half-orc · Kobold (Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc (Gorloc, Mur'gul, Mutant murloc) · Naga · Old God (Faceless one(Forgotten one, Unbroken),Aqir (Qiraji, Nerubian, Silithid), (Anubisath, Horusath, Obsidian destroyer)) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Revenant · Tauren (Taunka) · Treant · Troll(Dark troll, Forest troll, Jungle troll, Ice troll, Sand troll, Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Undead (Banshee, Darkfallen) · Vrykul (Frost vrykul, Human, Iron vrykul, Kvaldir)  · Wildkin · Wolvar

i tried to put them all in a roughly into alphabetic order

Just to simplify, because in the current incarnation, i belive is too messy, these are some of the examples of what could change for the better, or at least those that have three or more variations

ps: arent werewolves worgens i see no need for that to be there when there's should be a worgen link instead of a werewolf one, and in dont get why there are barely sentinent constructs in here like the anubisath and the obsidian destroyer

pss: well, i asked for help in scrolls of lore forums and theyre helping me making a better list for this template --Ashbear160 (talk) 11:55, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Looks good so far, I suppose... I think we can safely ignore some of the RPG-only races, depending on which book they come from. My only objection to the use of the parenthesis is that it doesn't discriminate between genuine subraces, corrupted versions and the like, but getting more specific than that is a bit out of scope for a navigational template. I'm also not convinced that revenants should count as a separate race. Aren't Skardyn modified dwarves? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:22, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Tomorrow ill put the template which i asked support in scrolls of lore to make--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:02, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

See also: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5111 --SWM2448 23:51, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

I like more as it is now. This new template has some weak points: It lists non-races (such as Cenarius and undead), there are some wrong parenthesis (sush as nymphs being related to cenarius and his children), the Old Gods part seems to much complicated in my opinion, as Ragestorm said the parenthesis aren't well formated (sometimes they are used for corrupted races, other times for minions or desendants, other times for evolutions or subraces and sometimes for the progenitors), also I'm sure that people would look in the "H" for humans and not in a parenthesis from the "V" of Vrykul. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 17:02, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

To be fair "Cenarius" should be "Children of Cenarius" or "Cenarian". I'd like to use some of the changes Ashbear is proposing, but I think we can leave the Horde and Alliance heading, which would enable us to leave the ten (soon to be twelve) races out of the main heading if we want. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:35, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

these were my main ideas sort of like an example prototype some of the thing like cenarious is supposed to mean child of cenarious ill put the new template i thought of as soon as i can and the parenthesis are used for the corrupted races,subraces and mostly whats designed as a big evolutionary tree, and ignore the old god category that pretty much a messed up area

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Aqir Qiraji · Nerubian · Silithid Child Of Cenarius Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove · Nymph Dragonkin Dragonspawn · Drakonid · Skardyn Dwarf Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Earthen · Frostborn · Iron dwarf · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf Elf Blood Elf · High elf · Night Elf · Wretched · Satyr · Banshee · Darkfallen Eredar Draenei · Broken · Lost one Giant Mountain giant · Storm giant · Sea Giant Gnome Leper gnome · Mechagnome · Sand Gnome Human Frost vrykul · Iron vrykul · Kvaldir · Vrykul Murloc Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc Ogre Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord Orc Fel orc · Mag'har Troll Dark troll · Forest troll · Jungle troll · Ice troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll Half-Breed Half-Elf · Half Orc · Half Ogre Other Tauren · Taunka · Goblin · Hobgoblin · Kobold · Snobold · Furbolg · Gnoll · Harpy · Magnataur · Makrura · Pandaren · Quilboar · Treant · Tuskarr · Wildkin · Worgen · Wolvar · Faceless ones Burning Legion Abyssal · Annihilan · Daemon · Demon · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Miscellaneous Angel · Clockwork · Ethereal · Naaru · Titan · Further reading Creatures

this is not the final version as theres somethings that need to be corrected or reviewed, the "other" section is the only one not organized alphabetly, i think it might be a lot bigger and to explain races that have more that 2 examples have a category, thank god for return otherwise i would have to write this all over again if you have any suggestions it would deeply appreciated--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:11, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I still like more the current one, this one is way to big. Besides it has some of the problems I have told before: the categorization are inconsistent, the gnomes include their progenitors, the mechagnomes, while the aquir includes its decendants, etc. Also the playable races are repeated below making it retundant. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 00:22, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe something based on Humoinad, dragon, demon, etc..

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Daemon · Demon · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Grell · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Satyr · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Dragon Dragonspawn · Drakonid · Nether drake · Skardyn Elemental Ancient · Anubisath · Horusath · Obsidian destroyer · Treant Humanoid Arakkoa · Bronzebeard dwarf · Bogstrok · Broken draenei · Centaur · Corrupted furbolg · Darkfallen · Dark Iron dwarf · Dark troll · Draenei Lost One · Dryad · Earthen · Elf · Ethereal · Faceless one · Fel orc · Forest troll · Forgotten one · Frostborn · Frost nymph · Frost vrykul · Furbolg · Gnoll · Gorloc · Gronn · Harpy · Half-elf · Half-ogre · Half-orc · High elf · Hobgoblin · Ice troll · Ironforge dwarf · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Jungle troll · Keeper of the Grove · Kobold · Kvaldir · Leper gnome · Mag'har · Magnataur · Makrura · Mechagnome · Mountain giant · Mur'gul · Murloc · Mutant murloc · Naga · Nymph · Ogre · Ogre mage · Ogre lord · Pandaren · Qiraji · Quilboar · Revenant · Sand Gnome · Sand troll · Snobold · Sporeling · Storm giant · Taunka · Trogg · Tuskarr · Unbroken · Vrykul · Werewolf · Wildkin · Wildhammer dwarf · Wolvar · Wretched · Zandalar troll Insectoid Aqir · Nerubian · Silithid Miscellaneous Angel · Banshee · Clockwork · Naaru · Titan Further reading Creatures

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 08:06, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

well mine involves far too much space, but in yours we still have a cluttered humanoid category, and a totally wrong elemental category--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:33, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Ashbear's version involves far too much dead space- the parenthesis are better from that perspective. A'noob has a better arrangement, I think, though I like the idea of grouping races together as opposed to a pure alphabetical listing. -_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:35, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I have another idea, will try to develop it better tomorrow. Basically, it consists of creating main categories, each one with one of the playable races or a predominant race, and then add related races. For example:

Ogres: Gronn, Ogres, Ogre kings, Ogre mages.

Humans: Human, Vrykul, Frost Vrykul, Sea Vrykul.

Dragons: Dragons, Drakes, Dragonspawns, Drakonids, Whelps.

I'll update the complete version tomorrow.--Lon-ami (talk) 16:29, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

i tried my best,Well my other idea is

Demon section for demons and fel corrupted races

Undead section for undead races

Titan section for the ones without the curse of flesh like eathen and mechagnomes

Flesh section for the inflicted with the curse of flesh

Water or sea section for aquatic species like the makrura, nagas and murlocs

Alien section for the ones that come from other worlds(in case of some variations like sand gnome and nether drakes they should be together with other races)

Native section for land races from azeroth that dont belong to the other sections

Nature section for nature spirits like cenarius children and trees

Dragon Section Here be dragons!

this doesnt seem as big as my suggestion so it might work ill try to put in template later--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:41, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Here's mine:

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Aqir Aqir · Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid Children Of Cenarius Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove · Nymph Dragonkin Dragon · Dragonspawn · Drake · Drakonid · Proto-dragon · Whelp · Skardyn Dwarf Mountain · Dark Iron dwarf · Earthen · Frostborn · Iron dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf Elf Blood Elf · High elf · Night Elf · Wretched · Satyr · Banshee · Darkfallen · Naga Eredar Draenei · Broken · Man'ari eredar · Lost one Giant Fire giant · Fungal giant · Ice giant · Iron giant · Mountain giant · Sea giant · Stone giant · Storm giant Gnome Gnome · Leper gnome · Mechagnome · Sand Gnome Human Frost vrykul · Human · Iron vrykul · Kvaldir · Vrykul Murloc Gorloc · Murloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc Ogre Gronn · Ogre · Ogre mage · Ogre lord Orc Fel orc · Mag'har · Orc Troll Dark troll · Forest troll · Jungle troll · Ice troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll Half-breed Half-elf · Half orc · Half ogre Other Tauren · Taunka · Goblin · Hobgoblin · Kobold · Snobold · Furbolg · Gnoll · Harpy · Magnataur · Makrura · Pandaren · Quilboar · Treant · Tuskarr · Wildkin · Worgen · Wolvar · Faceless ones Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Miscellaneous Angel · Clockwork · Ethereal · Naaru · Titan · Further reading Creatures

It still needs cleaning, but you get the idea. If you don't like that, you could like my second one instead:

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Beast Aqir · Nerubian Critter ... Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Doomguard · Felguard · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Shivarra · Succubus · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Dragonkin Dragon · Dragonspawn · Drake · Drakonid · Proto-dragon · Whelp Elemental ... Giant Fire giant · Fungal giant · Ice giant · Iron giant · Mountain giant · Sea giant · Stone giant · Storm giant Humanoid ... Mechanical Fel reaver · Undead ... Uncategorized Fleshbeast · Hydra · Naaru · Old God · Ooze · Qiraji · Silithid · Titan · Wisp

Still needs work, too, but you get the idea as well.--Lon-ami (talk) 10:11, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

i dont think we should work with gameplay mechanics

well here goes my third attempt at this

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Ogrimmar Orcs · Bloodhoof Tauren · Darkspear Troll Alien Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc(Fel orc · Mag'har) · Eredar(Broken draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre(Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Daemon · Demon · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Satyr · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Dragonkin Dragonspawn · Drakonid · Skardyn ·  ?more thigns to put here? Flesh Dwarf(Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome(Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul(Frost vrykul) Native Elf(Blood Elf · High elf · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin(Hobgoblin) · Harpy · Aqir(Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Faceless one · Kobold(Snobold) · Magnataur · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren(Taunka) · Troll(Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wolvar Nature Ancient · Child of Cenarius(Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Nymph · Treant · Wildkin Titan Earthen(Frostborn) · Giant(Mountain giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome Undead Darkfallen ·  ?More thign to put here? Water Naga · Murloc(Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Kvaldir · Makrura · Sea Giant ?Other? Angel · Elemental · Naaru · Titan

ps this is incomplete since i rushed do to annoyng parent ill try to complete the remaining of the list tomorrow

I'm still voting for A'noob's template. --gOurra[T҂C] 21:42, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Me too. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 23:04, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

like i said i still havent completed it, men my parents are really annoyning me when i try to do this--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:42, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

I like A'noob's, I only have a problem with it: since when is "insectoid" a type?--Lon-ami (talk) 11:00, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

well now it's more complete but there are some fine tuning(like arranging some dots(Done i think) ,putting half-breeds somewhere and adding missing races, and fixing some things alphabetcly)it should have removed cluttering and deadspace from the other templates i even arranged the horde and alliance category to show which part of the race is playable since not all parts of the mentioned races are playable ?if you see this is because i need help here?(there seems to be a problem it's the third time my parents make me rush things in this template....) there appears to be some problem with my ist that i cant find....--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:38, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Found the Problem didnt know such a small thing could be such a big problem anyway it might be better if i put the water section in the other sections since it seems to be smallest of them all makrura and murlocs would go to native ,naga to elfs, kvaldir to to vrykul, and sea giants to giants--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:36, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Ogrimmar Orcs · Bloodhoof Tauren · Darkspear Troll ?Alien? Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc(Fel orc · Mag'har) · Eredar(Broken draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre(Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Daemon · Demon · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Satyr · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Dragonkin Dragonspawn · Drakonid · Skardyn ·  ?more thigns to put here? ?Curse of flesh? Dwarf(Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome(Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul(Frost vrykul · Kvaldir · ) ?Native? Aqir(Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Elf(Blood Elf · High elf · Naga · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin(Hobgoblin) · Harpy · Faceless one · Kobold(Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc(Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren(Taunka) · Troll(Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wolvar ?Nature? Ancient · Children of Cenarius(Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Nymph · Treant · Wildkin Titan Earthen(Frostborn) · Giant(Mountain giant · Sea Giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome Undead Darkfallen ·  ?More things to put here? ?Other? Angel · Elemental · Naaru · Titan

so what do you think oh and things betwen ?? means that i need help here--Ashbear160 (talk) 12:43, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

I still don't like it because the categorizations are vague, it is very rare to see the terms native, alien and nature in warcraft universe to refer to the creatures in the categories you put. Also the template has speculation within, as we are not sure where the sand gnomes come from, also I don't like that the playale link is separated from the race link. And also, it has many spelling/grammar mistake and capitalizes every second word (which is incorrect), although this could be corrected. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 15:52, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Well common mistakes happens, many of the spelling grammar mistakes are obviously to be corrected before being a final version, and native, alien and nature are common denominators(it's denominators right?) of these categories, but if you can find any way to express these categories please bring forth your suggestions, we could change it to Azeroth Native or similar, and ill add the ?? to parts that until a better denominators are found will be used, and about the categories vagueness it's for not having too many cluttered or too much dead space, and the separation of playable is for the distinction that not all parts of the said race are part of the alliance and the horde, in this form which is much more correct(in my beliefs) and to avoid problems with arranging sub-races and repetition of the same races, and as of the sand gnomes the only thing we know is that they hide under the sand and theire called gnomes so as far as we know they are gnomes and should stay in the gnomes sub-race, which were caused by the curse of flesh, and when proved wrong should be changed accordingly.--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:48, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Oh and the capitalization of every second word is due to copy pasting a lot, but if you find anything like typos and wrong capitalizations you are free to change yourself, or note me about it. --Ashbear160 (talk) 16:53, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Still the categorizatin are a bit confusing because of this:

• Why aren't the dragons in natives?
• Is the undead category really necesary? I mean, they are not a race.
• Why aren't the nature in natives?
• The curse of flesh category seems useless as there is a titan one.
• The parenthesis still are confusing as it isn't used for a sole purpose but mixes corruption, desendants or subraces.
• The playable races are confusing as they have lore name but directs you to the playable article, and the lore article can't be found easily because of the many categories.

Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 02:42, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

• Because there is a dragonkin in gameplay mechanics although i said we shouldn't use that mechanic the dragonkin is the most correct of them all, and we know there's a large variety of dragonkin, i was going to ask if we could put each colour of the dragonflight since they are a diferent subraces now that we have space for that, also theres netherdrakes in outlands so native might be slightly wrong, but the main reason is below.
• i dont think so too it's was just an attempt.
• Because natives are for the other that don't fit the other category, that we don't know the origin so it does excessively clutter stuff, and nature are distinct because they also appear in outlands as native, at least ancient and treeants, and nature means they are nature spirits or related to nature spirits.
• Well that might be, but someone earlier complained about mixing creator races with cursed fleshs, i believe it's better the other way to and the titan and curse of flesh should be titan only, but if i were to change it should the gnome be the one or mechagnome
• Thats the point the parenthesis list all variations of the race be either corrupted, descendants and sub-races if we tried to list everything individually it would be confusing, and were trying to simplify the current template not making even more confusing
• So then what article you suggest to put i did change it for the playable articles since they seemed the correct ones, but if you think they are not and found the correct article please tell me so.

Ps im going to make a new one to show how it becomes with the suggestions above removing the undead, curse of flesh category, but keeping creator races separated from the cursed races,Ive added the dragonflights but if people doesnt like it, it can be changed back

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Ogrimmar Orcs · Bloodhoof Tauren · Darkspear Troll ?Alien? Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc(Fel orc · Mag'har) · Eredar(Broken draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre(Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Daemon · Demon · Doomguard · Felguard · Fel reaver · Fiend · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar · Mo'arg · Nathrezim · Sayaad · Satyr · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Voidwalker · Wrathguard Dragonkin Dragon(Red Dragon · Blue Dragon · Green Dragon · Bronze Dragon · Black Dragon · Nether Dragon · Twilight Dragon · Chromatic Dragon · Plagued Dragon · Infinite Dragon) · Dragonspawn · Drakonid · Skardyn · Proto-dragon ?Native? Aqir(Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Elf(Blood Elf · Darkfallen · High elf · Naga · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin(Hobgoblin) · Harpy · Faceless one · Kobold(Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc(Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren(Taunka) · Troll(Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wolvar ?Nature? Ancient · Children of Cenarius(Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Nymph · Treant · Wildkin Titan Earthen · Giant(Mountain giant · Sea Giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome · Dwarf(Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Frostborn · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome(Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul(Frost vrykul · Kvaldir) ?Other? Angel · Elemental · Naaru · Titan

--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:06, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

So... no more suggestions?--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:45, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

• You said that dragonkin was used for gameplay purposes, but none of the template is based on gameplay as you also said, that's a bit confusing.
• Still, the centaurs, keepers of the groves, dryads and wildkin could be considered natives. Besides is a term too vague, how do you know that the nymphs are of nature?
• The problem with the parenthesis inconsistances is that they don't follow a pattern. Sometimes the one inside the parenthesis was a progenitor and sometimes an evolution, this tends to complicate the matters as to what put in the inside the parenthesis and what put outside them.
• I'm not talking about the correct articles for playable races. I am talking about putting thinks like "Exodar Draenei" or "Darkspear Troll" when it was decided in the past that they should be refered as "Draenei (playable)" or "Troll (playable)".

Finally I want to tell you that I am having a very busy life right now and don't have the same amout of free time I had the last month, so I can't be in WoWWiki as much as before. That's why I didn't answered quickly (if you were refering to me about the questions of "no complains now?"). Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 03:51, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

• I didn't say that, i said that the dragonkin area is the most correct of them all, and there should be a dragonkin area because, it's differentiated from the other areas and the most correct in both gameplay and lore
• but these four you mentioned are descendants from nature spirit, elementals, and a goddess, but most importantly they're children of cenarius, basicly this is the area where we put nature spirits and related to nature spirits, or goddess in case of the wilkin since they're guardians of holy places of elune, the only nymphs that exist in game are frozen dryads anything else about dryads as far as i know is that they're tree spirits
• About the two above were added to avoid too much clutter in the native zone which is the current problem with the current template, and the native zone if for those races that little to no relations with each other, that don't have a specific origin and are native to azeroth
• I used the most Acknowledged denominator before the parenthesis, and the ones that have relations to the denominator inside the parenthesis, in some cases, elf troll or dwarf suffice, in others it doesn't, so it must be Aqir and Children of cenarius, however since you're so deadset on this could you tell me where is the dubious parenthises in the most recent template i made?
• Just because a thing was decided one way doesn't mean it should stay for ever that way and/or it's the most correct way, and im proposing many changes, not all of them must be accepted, however im suggesting this because the link in the alliance section goes directly to draenei, that might or might not be part of the alliance, and it should go directly to the playable section because that's the draeneis that are part of the alliance and it removes repetition when used correctly below
• i was talking in general not to anybody in specific but it was rather rude so i change it to something more nicer

i try to think this template, the most correct as possible but i make mistakes as im human so if you have any further corrections or suggestion tell me more--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I changed the title to "Races and species", added a Beast cat, added more Demons, Dragonkin and Humanoids, and played more with some sub-species into parenthesis.

What do you say?

v • d • e Races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Beast Bat · Bear · Birds of prey (Eagle · Hawk · Owl) · Boar · Carrion bird · Cat · Chimaera · Core hound · Crab · Crocolisk · Devilsaur · Gorilla · Gryphon · Hippogryph · Hyena · Kodo · Raptor · Scorpid · Serpent · Spider · Tallstrider · Turtle · Wind serpent · Wolf · Dragonhawk · Moth · Nether ray · Ravager · Rhinoceros · Spirit beast · Spore bat · Warp stalker · Wasp · Worm · Wyvern Dragonkin Aspect · Dragon (Black · Blue · Bronze · Chromatic · Green · Infinite · Nether · Plagued · Red · Twilight) · Dragon whelp · Dragonspawn (Flametongue · Scalebane · Wyrmkin) · Drake · Drakonid · Wyrm Elemental Ancient · Anubisath · Horusath · Obsidian destroyer · Treant Humanoid Arakkoa · Bronzebeard dwarf · Bogstrok · Broken draenei · Centaur · Corrupted furbolg · Darkfallen · Dark Iron dwarf · Dark troll · Draenei Lost One · Dryad · Earthen · Elf · Ethereal · Faceless one · Fel orc · Felblood elf · Forest troll · Forgotten one · Frostborn · Frost nymph · Frost vrykul · Furbolg · Gnoll · Gorloc · Gronn · Harpy · Half-elf · Half-ogre · Half-orc · High elf · Hobgoblin · Ice troll · Ironforge dwarf · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Jungle troll · Keeper of the Grove · Kobold · Kvaldir · Leper gnome · Mag'har · Magnataur · Makrura · Mechagnome · Mountain giant · Mur'gul · Murloc · Mutant murloc · Naga · Nymph · Ogre · Ogre mage · Ogre lord · Pandaren · Quilboar · Revenant · Sand Gnome · Sand troll · Snobold · Sporeling · Storm giant · Taunka · Trogg · Tuskarr · Unbroken · Vrykul · Werewolf · Wildkin · Wildhammer dwarf · Wolvar · Wretched · Zandalar troll Insectoid Aqir · Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid Miscellaneous Angel · Banshee · Clockwork · Old Gods · Naaru · Titan (Aesir · Vanir) Further reading Creatures

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 20:23, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to play to play devil's advocate here but you changed the objective of this template and the purpose of this discussion, the template is about sapient species, and it's even more messy and cluttered than the original, the problem is that youre using a dubious categories that have no place lorewise, and the fact that you twisted the purpose of the template for youre categories when what should have happened is the contrary, you should have twisted the categories around the purpose of the template. --Ashbear160 (talk) 20:42, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

but your miscellaneus area gave me a idea thanks, ill post it later, oh and ill use the dragonspawn subraces and the demon category--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:51, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

why does everyone keep posting dragon whelps an drakes as a different race? they are dragon babies and dragon teenagers, should we put human children and troll babies since they are ingame anyway?(sorry for the sarcasm but this issue severily annoys me)--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:57, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Here goes another change

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Orgrimmar Orcs · Thunder Bluff Tauren · Darkspear Troll Titan Pure Earthen · Giant (Mountain giant · Sea Giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome Flesh Dwarf (Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Frostborn · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome (Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul (Frost vrykul · Kvaldir) Native to Azeroth Aqir (Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Children of Cenarius (Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Elf (Blood Elf · Darkfallen · High elf · Naga · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin (Hobgoblin) · Grell · Harpy · Faceless one · Kobold (Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc (Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren (Taunka) · Troll (Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wildkin · Wolvar Dragonkin Dragon (Red Dragon · Blue Dragon · Green Dragon · Bronze Dragon · Black Dragon · Nether Dragon · Twilight Dragon · Chromatic Dragon · Plagued Dragon · Infinite Dragon) · Dragonspawn (Flametongue · Scalebane · Wyrmkin) · Drakonid · Skardyn · Proto-dragon Alien to Azeroth Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc (Mag'har) · Eredar (Broken draenei · Draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre (Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Demon · Ered'ruin (Daemon · Doomguard) · Devil · Fiend · Felblood elf · Fel orc · Fel reaver · Floating eye · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar (Wrathguard) · Mo'arg (Felguard · Gan'arg) · Nathrezim (Tothrezim) · Sayaad (Incubus · Succubus) · Satyr · Shivarra · Void terror · Voidwalker (Void god · Void lord · Voidcaller · Voidwraith) Divine Ancient(Demigods) · Ancient(Trees) (Treant) · Angel · Elemental (Air · Earth · Fire · Water · Conglomerate) · Loa · Naaru · Old God · Titan (Aesir · Vanir)

well i followed a few of the suggestion and removed nature section, i hope the native section doesnt become too cluttered, the new divine section is for beings related to divine magic(nature, elements, light, shadow and others the name of the category should say which)the repitition of ancients is made from the 2 types of ancient both demigods and trees once i learn to link to different parts of the article i will change it, i also put the categories orders for the more known to the lesser known, if people wish i can remake the nature section--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:10, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

if people has any more questions ask me and ill answer, if you have suggestions tell them too, oh and thank you A'noob

i saw somethings that i could use in mine thanks again, theres some corrections i still wish to make before i finalize this version of the template, i just waiting for some answers at http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?p=148515#post148515 :--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:48, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

On your last draw, I would say this:

- there has already been a way too long debate on how to name the playable races, and the result is <Race> (playable), not any random combination of <Race> <Capital>

- Titan category, why not, but the parenthesis are bad in there, because you choose to put Human out of the Vrykul evolution, same goes for the Iron dwarf/Dwarf and Mechagnome

- Grell are demons, not Native (no?)

- For the Tauren/Taunka, that would be the contrary: Taunka (Tauren)

- Ogre descend from the Gronn no?

- "Divine" is a bit too much imo, Naaru are powerful being, but gods... same goes for Titans, their abilities too create worlds does not mean their are gods, only techno-capable being

- I would have kept an Elemental category

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 08:59, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

• well doesnt mean he cant be changed does it? of course it does not need to be my way either, I just did it to make categories the most correct and avoid repetition.
• if you look closer you see that there is a part with pure titan races and curse of flesh however i think ill change so it's clear and i think i know how.
• Grell are fey more related to nature and the emerald dream they just look like imps(note this is really confusing and i dont know the truth, so ill change it later accordingly of what is correct)
• The parenthesis are there for connecting the most common races to it's subraces, is not about a descendant thing, i mentioned various times before, and as far as i know taunka are not ancestors of taurens
• i wrote before that divine category, is about beings related to divine magic, however this is the name that I find most fitting for these guys and if you follow the link Divine you would see what i mean.
• however if you saw your elemental category you would have see that noone of these beings are actual elementals, and there aren't many actual elementals that are sapient.--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:49, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

i did another improvement i dont know if it becomes better or worse look at the titan category and tell me your opinion--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:49, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Even with your corrections I still prefer the first template made by A'noob or the one that is currently used. It still has some problems:

• First of all, please, try to use correct spelling and grammar. It's more profesional and gives more credibility to your words. If you use wrong spelling and grammar in your template (like saying "Ogrimmar" instead of "Orgrimmar", not separating the parenthesis from the words, etc) it tends to distract and made it looks worse than it actually is. Also the use of red links makes it look wrong.
• The debate of the playable races mentioned before by me and A'noob can't be changed that easily, it was decided by the admins here.
• The parenthesis part is still confusing with the humans, as it doesn't tell that they are related to the vrykul, but if they are put in the vrykul the people won't find them easily. So, this may not have a solution and maybe that's why the actual template doesn't includes parenthesis.
• It is never told that the elementals are divine...

Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 21:47, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

-well im only human... and the red part is because i used two scientific terms for categories in a fantasy game, however they don't stop making them correct, just that they dont have a link...and if you tell me the grammar mistakes i will correct them as soon as possible, and what do you mean of separating the parenthesis from the word? if you tell me ill try to find a way to repair this

-if the admins think it's better that way they'll put how they think it's best, not all parts of this template must be accepted.(do i need to repeat myself? continously because it's the third time i give people the same answer...)

-or i could put humans in the main part and link vrykuls as it's subrace but people are complaing about that, so it's better this way.

-like i said, related to divine magic, which shamanism is part of.

and why do you think is first A'noob was better? it had clutter, deadspace and some parts where very wrong? --Ashbear160 (talk) 08:25, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I know you are human, but you could try a little harder like putting the sentences capitalized, ending with a period, etc. The grammar I mean when you write comments, not in the template. The parenthesis part is that you put "something(another thing)" instead of "something (another thing)".

The problem is that you put an arbitrary lore term for the playable races and put the races below the template, that's something I didn't like. But as you said, not all has to be accepted.

The human & vrykul part, as I said, may not have a solution and that's why I said that it may be the reason why the acutal template doesn't have them.

Where is it told that shamanism is divine magic?

I like A'noob firstly for the profesionalism, he used correct term for the categories, good spelling and grammar. I still prefer it as none of the templates you made really convince me, you said that it had cluttered the humanoid category, but it may be necessary one cluttered category, because, if you separate in too much categories the template is made too big and less interesting in my opinion. I'm not sure what you mean for deadspace, but if you mean the space after the last race then most of the templates you made are in the same way, besides it varies from computer to computer. And can you mention what parts are really wrong?

Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 20:02, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

• Ill try to do it as soon as i can but there are somethign that i simply don't notice, and my bad writing is mostly due to english not being my first language, and lousy msn related habits in the net, and all the damn typos that I don't notice.
• It's not arbitrary it's the name of the culture of the playable races in the alliance and the horde.
• Pretty much that the problem with humans.
• Click the divine link, and it would lead to divine magic section, basicly divine magic is anything that isn't runic arcane and fel magic.
• He used correct terms in the categories for gameplay, but as you would clearly see most of these are completely wrong in terms of lore, which is the main focus of this template, and what are we trying to avoid is cluttering races together and organizing the existing list in a more comprehensive one, and when I mentioned dead space, i meant little tiny categories that have only a handfull of fingers(5), and ive gone and done on purpose to reduce the number of categories to the minimum without cluttering the races together while trying to stay the most correct, and alien species and native species are correct terms and can be used in science and fantasy game. the wrong parts are elemental which is absolutely wrong and insectoid which are not distinguished that way in game and all are told to be descended from the aqir, and the biggest flaw of this categorization is that the gameplay mechanics doesn't respect anyway lore and you can find often races that are in two categories, the only one of these categories that can be really respected is Dragonkin, since those categories are used arbitrarily in gameplay, often for balance reasons, other just not to make new ones, i bet i could find more flaws. --Ashbear160 (talk) 21:56, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Spaces were added between the race and the parenthesis, and red links removed to standard white words, some might have escaped me, but ill correct it as soon as i notice it.--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:31, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, so your main language is not english, sorry about that. And so the msn habits are probably the cause for not capitalzing. After you fixed the spaces and removed the red links it made the template to look much better than before, ironically now I see it as a good template now with just some fixes.

However, I still dislike the idea of separating the race from it's playable link, also not separating them won't cause a problem for the human-vrykul part.

About the divine magic, the article in WoWWiki tells that, but I will remind you that it is not sourced. I want a primary source, meanwhile I'll put a "citation needed" tag.

I still don't like the categories native and alien as it is never specified that this template is Azeroth-based. And the divine category doesn't convince me.

Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 05:21, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

-The problem is that will cause repetition problems everywhere in the template, it's more correct than before, since it displays which part race is in the alliance or the horde.(about this question this is my final attempt at justifying this change I cant say anything better than this).

-Well... The lore pretty much divides magic into divine and arcane, so... I don't know.

-I could make it Native to Azeroth and Alien to Azeroth, but I'm afraid that would make the name of the categories section to big, I could probably call divine, magic, spirits, demigod, other, but most of these don't fit with some of the races there and other is needlessly vague when being related to divine magic(elementals, ancients, demigods and such) or divine could also mean that is considered a higher being by the lesser races.--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:41, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

well i tried to add the native to azeroth and alien to azeroth but i cant manage to put in two lines only 3 or 1 lines, if somebody can do this please tell me how--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:52, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Since I cant see any improvements or any way better template than this one that I and other people helped me make, I'm proposing this template as the new template, if anyone sees any improvement/error I could make to my template, please proceed to tell so I can improve/correct it, now I would want any admin answer if possible, if this template could be the new one or not. (P.S. if anyone find a way to put "native to azeroth" and "alien to azeroth" in a two liner please proceed to tell me).--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:51, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Orgrimmar Orcs · Thunder Bluff Tauren · Darkspear Troll Titan Pure Earthen · Giant (Mountain giant · Sea Giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome Flesh Dwarf (Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Frostborn · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome (Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul (Frost vrykul · Kvaldir) Native to Azeroth Aqir (Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Children of Cenarius (Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Elf (Blood Elf · Darkfallen · High elf · Naga · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin (Hobgoblin) · Grell · Harpy · Faceless one · Kobold (Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc (Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren (Taunka) · Troll (Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wildkin · Wolvar Dragonkin Dragon (Red Dragon · Blue Dragon · Green Dragon · Bronze Dragon · Black Dragon · Nether Dragon · Twilight Dragon · Chromatic Dragon · Plagued Dragon · Infinite Dragon) · Dragonspawn (Flametongue · Scalebane · Wyrmkin) · Drakonid · Skardyn · Proto-dragon Alien to Azeroth Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc (Mag'har) · Eredar (Broken draenei · Draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre (Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Demon · Ered'ruin (Daemon · Doomguard) · Devil · Fiend · Felblood elf · Fel orc · Fel reaver · Floating eye · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar (Wrathguard) · Mo'arg (Felguard · Gan'arg) · Nathrezim (Tothrezim) · Sayaad (Incubus · Succubus) · Satyr · Shivarra · Void terror · Voidwalker (Void god · Void lord · Voidcaller · Voidwraith) Divine Ancient(Demigods) · Ancient(Trees) (Treant) · Angel · Elemental (Air · Earth · Fire · Water · Conglomerate) · Loa · Naaru · Old God · Titan (Aesir · Vanir)

If this template is to remain focused on the sapient races, maybe it should be renamed to better explain it.

As for the global rest, here is my version, quitte the same, but more filled.

v • d • e Races and species Alliance Draenei (playable) · Dwarf (playable) · Gnome (playable) · Human (playable) · Night elf (playable) · Worgen (playable) Horde Blood elf (playable) · Forsaken (playable) · Goblin (playable) · Orc (playable) · Tauren (playable) · Troll (playable) Beast Bat · Bear · Birds of prey (Eagle · Hawk · Owl) · Boar · Carrion bird · Cat · Chimaera · Core hound · Crab · Crocolisk · Devilsaur · Gorilla · Gryphon · Hippogryph · Hyena · Kodo · Raptor · Scorpid · Serpent · Spider · Tallstrider · Turtle · Wind serpent · Wolf · Dragonhawk · Moth · Nether ray · Ravager · Rhinoceros · Spirit beast · Spore bat · Volcanoth · Warp stalker · Wasp · Worm · Wyvern Demon Abyssal · Annihilan · Demon · Demonic hound (Shadow-hound) · Ered'ruin (Daemon · Doomguard) · Devil · Felhunter · Fiend · Fel reaver · Floating eye · Gan'arg · Grell · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar (Wrathguard) · Mo'arg (Felguard) · Nathrezim · Nightmare (Dreadsteed · Felsteed) · Sayaad (Incubus · Succubus) · Satyr · Shivarra · Tothrezim · Void terror · Voidwalker (Void god · Void lord · Voidcaller · Voidwraith) Dragonkin Aspect · Dragon (Black · Blue · Bronze · Chromatic · Drake · Green · Infinite · Nether · Plagued · Red · Twilight · Whelp · Wyrm) · Dragonspawn (Flametongue · Scalebane · Wyrmkin) · Drakonid · Proto-dragon · Skardyn Elemental Ancient · Anubisath · Basic (Air · Earth · Lord · Prince · Fire · Mana · Water) · Bog beast · Conglomerate (Dust · Geyser · Ice · Lava · Mud · Primal · Sandstorm · Spark · Steam) · Entropic beast · Horusath · Obsidian destroyer · Treant Humanoid Arakkoa · Bronzebeard dwarf · Bogstrok · Broken draenei · Centaur · Corrupted furbolg · Dark Iron dwarf · Dark troll · Darkfallen · Draenei Lost One · Dryad · Earthen · Elf · Ethereal · Faceless one · Fel orc · Felblood elf · Forest troll · Forgotten one · Frostborn · Frost nymph · Frost vrykul · Furbolg · Gilgoblin · Gnoll · Gorloc · Gronn · Harpy · Half-elf · Half-ogre · Half-orc · High elf · Hobgoblin · Ice troll · Ironforge dwarf · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Jungle troll · Keeper of the Grove · Kobold · Kvaldir · Leper gnome · Mag'har · Magnataur · Makrura · Mechagnome · Mountain giant · Mur'gul · Murloc · Mutant murloc · Naga · Nymph · Ogre · Ogre mage · Ogre lord · Pandaren · Quilboar · Revenant · Sand Gnome · Sand troll · Snobold · Sporeling · Storm giant · Taunka · Trogg · Tuskarr · Unbroken · Vrykul · Werewolf · Wildkin · Wildhammer dwarf · Wolvar · Wretched · Zandalar troll Insectoid Aqir · Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid Miscellaneous Ancient Guardians · Angel · Banshee · Clockwork · Old Gods · Naaru · Titan (Aesir · Vanir) Further reading Creatures

What do you think of it?

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 06:05, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

PS:If you think of other races feel free to add them here in the proper category.

I still have the same critique I said earlier about your template which is:

The humanoid section is too cluttered.

The elemental section is Mostly wrong(before was completely wrong).

The dragonkin section has things that aren't races, I'm sorry but whelps, drakes, aspects and wyrms ARE NOT DIFFERENT SAPIENT RACES(this infuriates me).

You betrayed the purpose of the template which is too show sapient races, there is already one for beasts and when people are looking for races they are looking sapient races, not animals.

Gameplay mechanics are not a trustworthy categorization, they are used by the developers with no thought of lore and used for convenience and balance of gameplay, when we are trying to make a template lorewise correct, only the dragonkin section is a somewhat trustworty section.--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:34, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Im still waiting for an answer.--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:40, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

v • d • e Sapient races and species Alliance Exodar Draenei · Ironforge Dwarf · Gnomeregan exiles · Stormwind Human · Darnassus Night Elf · Gilneas Worgens Horde Silvermoon Blood Elfs · Forsaken · Bilgewater Cartel · Orgrimmar Orcs · Thunder Bluff Tauren · Darkspear Troll Titanic Creations Pure Earthen · Giant (Mountain giant · Sea Giant · Storm giant) · Iron dwarf · Iron vrykul · Mechagnome Flesh Dwarf (Bronzebeard dwarf · Dark Iron dwarf · Frostborn · Ironforge dwarf · Trogg · Wildhammer dwarf) · Human · Gnome (Leper gnome · Sand Gnome) · Vrykul (Frost vrykul · Kvaldir) Native to Azeroth Aqir (Nerubian · Qiraji · Silithid) · Children of Cenarius (Centaur · Dryad · Frost nymph · Keeper of the Grove) · Elf (Blood Elf · Darkfallen · High elf · Naga · Night Elf · Wretched) · Furbolg · Gnoll · Goblin (Hobgoblin) · Grell · Harpy · Faceless one · Kobold (Snobold) · Magnataur · Makrura · Murloc (Gorloc · Mur'gul · Mutant murloc) · Pandaren · Quilboar · Tauren (Taunka) · Troll (Dark troll · Forest troll · Ice troll · Jungle troll · Sand troll · Zandalar troll) · Tuskarr · Wildkin · Wolvar Dragonkin Dragon (Red Dragon · Blue Dragon · Green Dragon · Bronze Dragon · Black Dragon · Nether Dragon · Twilight Dragon · Chromatic Dragon · Plagued Dragon · Infinite Dragon) · Dragonspawn (Flametongue · Scalebane · Wyrmkin) · Drakonid · Skardyn · Proto-dragon Alien to Azeroth Arakkoa · Bogstrok · Ethereal · Orc (Mag'har) · Eredar (Broken draenei · Draenei · Draenei Lost One) · Ogre (Gronn · Ogre mage · Ogre lord) · Sporeling Fel and Demons Abyssal · Annihilan · Demon · Ered'ruin (Daemon · Doomguard) · Devil · Fiend · Felblood elf · Fel orc · Fel reaver · Floating eye · Imp · Infernal · Man'ari eredar (Wrathguard) · Mo'arg (Felguard · Gan'arg) · Nathrezim (Tothrezim) · Sayaad (Incubus · Succubus) · Satyr · Shivarra · Void terror · Voidwalker (Void god · Void lord · Voidcaller · Voidwraith) Eternals Ancient(Demigods) · Ancient(Trees) (Treant) · Angel · Elemental (Air · Earth · Fire · Water · Conglomerate) · Loa · Naaru · Old God · Titan (Aesir · Vanir) Creatures · Factions  · Languages  · Origin of the races  · Species

Well i renamed the categories tell me what you think, i still i could put them in two lines but obviously something is not working right or im not finding the thing that makes it into two lines.

I just did an gigantic facepalm for not remembering eternals to use instead of the divine category... and also added a few parts to a below that are related to the sapient species--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:21, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Now i just need a admin telling me if it's changing the template or not, since apparently noone isn't against this template... --Ashbear160 (talk) 18:26, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fine, but wait for more people to voice their opinions before changing it ;).--Lon-ami (talk) 18:40, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Silence usally means that their not against it :P--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:57, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

it seems that noone answers so ill ask for a admin to answer me plz--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:44, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look, but to me it looks just as messy now as it did before- if more categorized...--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:17, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Well to put it simply, messy is the inert quality of the categories of warcraft races :S ;in the template I suggested is less messy because:

-Categories have lots of races and should be easy to understand, without any of the races contradicting the categories.

-Race (Sub-race) makes it easier to look for races with lots of members like troll and elves, and also makes the template uch more organised and simpler

That's why i think the template i made is better.--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:23, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

Gilgoblin

Please add "Gilgoblin" to the Azeroth portion.AMBER^(RΘCK) 20:55, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

It's only shown in concept art... for now, until we get more concrete proof of it's existence we should not add it--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:40, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

The fact that concept art exists is proof enough that Gilgoblins will find their way to World of Warcraft, as Blizzard would not have created the art if it didn't intend to add the race. Gilgoblins should be added to the template.AMBER^(RΘCK) 09:09, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Not it's not there has been many concept art of world of warcraft expansion that did not make it to the final game or was completely changed into a different race(check the burning crusade concept art and you'll see a few that didn't make or were changed), I'm not saying they don't exist or never will, I'm just saying that we should wait for it to be officialized as existent before adding it to the template--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:39, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

I'm in favor of adding it, like the Volcanoth and the incomming Dodo!

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 10:58, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

I've looked at the Burning Crusade concept art ([1], [2]), and there appear to be no pictures of creatures that have *not* made it to the game. Unless you can show me some concept art that has not been released by either Scrolls of Lore or the official BC art page, your claim is dismissed. Apparently for Blizzard, concept art means the subject will make it to the live game. A'noob: I agree. AMBER^(RΘCK) 11:30, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Now i cant find the best example but you can see some example of changes that occurred in the concept art in the burning crusade, like the three horned clefthoof and some variations of the spore bat, but that's not point the point is that concept art is just concept art, and we shouldn't jump the gun and started adding everything that appears, if that would do wed have to put sapient races from the appendix 3 which is not in the lore(mostly), what im saying is that i think that we have to wait before linking to a article that the only proof that exists is a picture with the name gilgoblin--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:49, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Well I found a earlier example of a unit for warcraft 3 called the dirt eater that never made it into the game, another example of things that blizzard pre-expansion release that never make it into the expansion is Nerubian vizier story, in Wrath which was said to be servants of a emperor, we didn't see nothing related about the nerubian vizier except similar models, and they were just called nerubians--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:58, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, I think they should be at the wiki. Also, if you don't mind, could you include sources for that "dirt eater"? Never heard about it, I'm interested on whatever media depicts it.--Lon-ami (talk) 19:18, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Ahm, if you refer to this, that's just a concept that wasn't show anywhere but at SotS.--Lon-ami (talk) 19:20, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Yes i was talking about that, Gilgoblins are already in the wiki they are suggesting to add it to the template, which i think is premature, because we just have a picture with a name, and I presented the dirt eater as one of the concept art that didnt make it into the game--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:25, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Actually your example is not a good one, as it is never told that the dirt eater art was a cancelled unit, it is just speculated with no base. I support adding the gilgoblins, although I think this will have to end in an admin desicion as the template is protected. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 04:12, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

I'm just saying it's too early to be adding races that we only have a image with a name on it like the gilgoblin, I mean it has already a wowwiki article but if we're adding a race to the template I think we should wait until we have more information, or the article has little more information, before putting on the template.

I Mean i think it's a bad move to link the template of sapient races to a article that says this:

-The gilgoblins are a species of aquatic goblin, of which art was shown at BlizzCon 2009. Presumably, the gilgoblin race is to be introduced with World of Warcraft: Cataclysm.

It's just seems like a incredible premature action.--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:54, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Just cause it has concept art doesn't guarantee it will exist in the game. Lamia has concept art, Rockman has concept art, but where are they... Mantaxx as well, and some more. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^(T•C) 20:27, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

And Robits! --SWM2448 21:00, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Mantax i saw that once in the template and i has gonna use it to prove the thing that not all concept art goes into lore but couldn't find it.--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:13, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Coming into this very late, I realize, but I would very much prefer NOT to add new entries based purely on concept art. Aside from the fact that there's a lengthy discussion on changing the layout of the template as it is, I see no point in linking to a virtually empty article about something that might not make it into the game. We lose nothing by waiting for more information. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:04, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference between concept art shown before the release of the product of which the art was supposedly for, and "leftover" concept art that served no purpose whatsoever and received its first mention in a book, when the actual product has already been released. The gilgoblins were shown at Blizzcon, at which Blizzard previewed the upcoming expansion. Since the gilgoblin race seems to be related to water, it is a safe assumption they are going to be featured in the Abyssal Maw. Seeing as Blizzard has already published a preview of that, we know that area is already pretty far into development. At this stage, Blizzard must already have a clear idea what is and what is not going to make it. If gilgoblins were not to show up, Blizzard would have axed them already and they would not have made it to BlizzCon 2009.AMBER^(RΘCK) 12:07, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

The same happened to azol'nerub which has axed into an instance, instead of an zone like it was said at Blizzcon a few years back... Like ragestorm said "We lose nothing by waiting for more information"--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:55, October 9, 2009 (UTC)