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I know you've done a lot of good things for the rogue info, but I'm afraid that it's no option to agree to the hemo-hybrid builds being obsolete, they are still as viable as they were pre-2.3 A good tool to look over these things would be the spreadsheet provided by Elitist Jerks, you can get it here: Rogue DPS Spreadsheet. The problem with the hemo-hybrid build is that it currently scales backward, the better gear gets, the worse it compares, the point where they even out (hemo debuff included for the hemo build) is halfway Black Temple. But then, a rogue at early BT should already know this. Untill that point, the hemo-hybrid spec remains a valuable addition to raids, especially the 25-men versions. And yes, a point in DD is more effective then a point in Sword Spec ;) --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ashera (talk · contr). 13:23, 22 January 2008
- Hemo calculation has for the biggest part been fixed, hemo is no longer added to personal DPS in case the raid estimate for the debuff is activated.
- The backward scaling isn't exactly caused by AP, which is good for hemo and sinister alike nowadays. The backward scaling is because the debuff damage itself does not scale.
- The +98 damage on Sinister does scale, with every buff to weapondamage from talents all over.
- Combat Potency also scales with haste, a very common stat on rogue gear in BT. More haste equals more SS, equals more damage. The hemo hybrid build has no other advantage from Haste then increased white damage and poison procs, but a combat build has those advantages too.
- AR is not one of the great DPS talents in raids, its cooldown is too long to give a definite advantage. It's a burst, but not a sustained DPS ability.
- Combat Potency is a good talent, but it's a talent needed by combat builds to make Sinister Strikes, which cost 40 energy talented possible. It is still unstable in its procs (I know, I have had times waiting for either that proc or 2 normal energy ticks and having had to accept the latter)
- Surprise Attacks is also a strong ability, both for the 10% buff to SS and for the undodgable finishers.
- DD is not as strong as WE, that much has been agreed upon at EJ in various threads, from roguecraft 101 to the old Point of Infliction thread. But DD not as strong a talent per point as Sword Spec? No, I haven't seen any discussion there, and the 28 points into combat more seemed to have slipped in there out of convenience (or habit) of maxing that talent then anything else. One point of Sword Spec increases total DPS by roughly 1%. DD increases DPS by roughly 1.4%, reduced to some degree by executioner spam, but reducing the whole effectivenes by more then 0.4% points (that's more then a third, so would assume the whole raid suddenly starts dealing 33% more damage from 35% down, and not just warriors doing better from 20% down.) and placing it behind Sword Spec? That's very doubtful.
- If anything, the hemo hybrid build is still a very viable build for any rogue who starts raiding, and will last them a very long time. It's only at BT level that it becomes obsolete, and even there, the sword variant is only very marginally behind in total raid improvement vs taking a combat rogue.
- The 11/2x/2x builds were developed long before the 2.3 patch by the way, even the combat vs hemo - point of infliction thread at EJ dates back to June last year, and then it was already acknowledged to be viable there, though it had a steep gear requirement back then.
- PS: I just now noticed the faulty 20/0/41 build, though 17/0/44 seems to be a more common version nowadays. --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ashera (talk · contr). 14:51, 22 January 2008 and 14:55, 22 January 2008
Rogue builds edits
Try to be more specific about why you remove builds from the Rogue builds page. Also please try to avoid non-NPOV comments about builds. Sometimes it's better just to list the build you prefer and put comments about why you think it's better than another build. -- (talk · contr) 2:08 PM PST 22 Jan 2008
Your own hemo won't use a charge, since you use hemo once every 3.5 seconds, while the charges will be gone in 2 seconds already. And no, the 42 damage/hit is not affected by anything.
Haste doesn't matter for hemo. It doesn't matter who uses a hemo charge, as long as all charges are used. You can't place more then 10 charges once every 3.5 seconds anyway. You might benefit more yourself from your hemo´s, but the only reason why raid dps goes up is because you hit more often, not because suddenly more hemo charges are used, because the damage from the debuff for the raid as a whole remains the exact same. Hemo is about total raid DPS, not about personal DPS. If total raid DPS increases more from bringing a hemo-rogue then it would from bringing a combat rogue, then the build is viable, even if the build's personal DPS is lower then that of a combat rogue. Or in other words: sacrifice an X amount of personal damage to increase total raid damage by more then X throught the debuff.
Discussions on the wow rogueforums are generally nonsense, most people talk by "feel" there, not by fact. This is where the EJ forums stand out, since they are strong at factual theorycrafting. And I've searched the place over again, but the DD vs Sword Spec discussion hasn't been there, except by some "feel" assumptions, not by factual data.
And no, 3 CP procs in a row do not compensate for non-procs. The non-procs cause downtime of SS, you'll catch up some, but not all. In a Bladeflurry spam (especially when popping AR with it!), you even risk over-procs, meaning you gain energy that is lost because it exceeds your max.
By the way, I'm going to reset the Rogue builds back again. If I see either of you (User:Ashera or User:Hoochfly) edit it without getting some support for your changes on the Talk:Rogue builds page from other editors, I'm going to have to list you on WoWWiki:Violations as vandals and start banning. Consider yourself warned.-- (talk · contr) 6:41 PM PST 22 Jan 2008
Response to comment on Ashera's page
Nope, Khadgar EU Ashera 13:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is you then: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khadgar&n=Ashera and so, you are defending "your build" in all of this nonsense and in reality, as noted in the discussion area on builds, this doesn't really have anything to do with cookie-cutter vs anything. It's a build you use so it should be up there as cookie-cutter. Hmm. --Hoochfly 15:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
So, you can't handle a discussion when I've posted support and used your sources to show otherwise, and you've posted nothing in return, but choose to whine about it like a baby. At this point, you sir, fail. --Hoochfly 15:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)First of all, you obviously have no idea how to use a spreadsheet properly, secondly, you did NOT prove a thing at all, but merely state a "no" without any backup. As far as I can see, the only person failing is you. And yes, I am using that build myself for very obvious reasons: to improve the performance of the raids I'm in. And no, I don't write much about other builds, since they either do not need further comments, they are not interesting to me, or because I am not too acquainted with them (dagger builds would be an example of this). You on the other hand obviously have not the slightest notion of how to play with the builds you comment on (uhmm yeah, right, apart that you specced it for 2 days and didn't like it of course, rofl), have no grasp of the mechanics behind them, not the slightest notion of how to perform with them.
You still haven't given even the most minor proof of your theories other then emo underage bandwagon replies, where I have given pointers and even links to factual data. Fail more tbh, people like a good laugh. Ashera 16:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This is interesting
I don't really know what Ashera is trying to prove. /shrug
My contention with his posts are that he makes broad statements about a margin of difference that is "large", but that just isn't the case. Perhaps he's young? Anyway, I find myself agreeing with you that these builds should be cookie-cutter and that he seems to be fighting to have his build up there when it really isn't anything special. I'd propose that we put the build up as 11.28.22 as that is the base and explain both variants, but it should be noted that none of them compare to combat and simply that the DPS difference between any of the builds is so minute as to not worry about. Ultimately, anyone speccing for DPS and min/maxing is going combat, right? :) Dom1nate 23:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you could be on to something. He seems sincere in what he's trying to do, but perhaps is lacking mechanics understanding. He also can't seem to grasp that there is math outside this spreadsheet on EJ and other places. There used to be a really solid online api that compared DPS of strikes that made calculating build effectivness easier.
I would agree that the builds need to be addressed in total and that combat-hemo is obsolete per a question Ashera asked me. Obsolete doesn't mean someone can't use it if they please. As I said above anyone min/maxing is speccing combat anyway. I still like to whip out my NES and play some Tecmo Super Bowl every-now-and-again. The NES is obsolete, but I enjoy it. Maybe that is what he is failing to understand and is taking obsolete more negatively than he should. :) Dom1nate 23:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)