User talk:Varghedin

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• ...User talk:Varghedin/Archive01 Archived 16:19, 1st February 2006 (CET)
• ...User talk:Varghedin/Archive02 Archived 16:03, 20th October 2007 (CET)
• ...User talk:Varghedin/Archive03 Archived 21:35, 22nd January 2008 (CET)

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Contents 1 Wrath of the Lich King Pictures 2 A humble request... 3 Model Viewer ? 4 You're the Boss 5 Race Icons 6 Categories and such 7 Naga organization 8 Screenshots 9 need bans handed out for gold spam 10 lower case rd 11 New mini-icon ideas 12 MOS "thin" navigational templates 13 Nether Ray Icon 14 Mok'Nathal 15 Character Portrait 16 Class set nav 17 Wow 18 Female Eredar 19 New Topic 20 Fungal giants 21 Tabard of the Shattered Sun 22 List of <Race> (NPC) 23 The Golden Kobold 24 Login issues 25 Kalecgos new graphics 26 Theresa 27 Kil'jaeden icon 28 Icon making

Wrath of the Lich King Pictures

I was just wondering who I should tell before I go through with my plan, as I have set aside some time this weekend coming up to post over 100 pictures from Wrath of the Lich King and was wondering who I should warn here that the site traffic might get a big increase as I intend not to provide (i.e. post) the pictures on any other site, but this one. User:Raogrimm2

Don't worry about traffic - what type of pictures though? Kirkburn  talk  contr 16:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The pictures are of serveral dozen NPC and regional shots of the area players played at Blizzcon, along with several quest test so I should be able to fill out about 6 or so quests. --User:Raogrimm2

Just make sure you do not upload over anything again. That causes some problems.--SWM2448 23:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

You mean replacing existing pictures? --  Shandris  talk / contribs 10:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anything I have has been posted as I doubt many spent several of their 20mins periods just taking pics of NPC and towns. The only thing that could delay me right now is finding my copy of photoshop so I can edit the pictures. I actually would of had this up back in August, but I misplaced my camera card and thought I may have left it back in LAX. Either way the pictures should be of interest, although they aren't the best of quality as the camera I own is old and the flash can't be turned off so I had to struggle to cover the flash, while taking pics. User:Raogrimm2

Rememeber that much of the NPC population might change before Wrath goes live. But go ahead and upload stuff, it's perfectly legally obtained material. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 20:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL going to be delayed for another week, as I spent my weekend doing home work, still I got one picture up enjoy! http://www.wowwiki.com/Taunka

A humble request...

I have attempted to make an NPC Icon for a Harpy, and it looks terrible. Perhaps if you have some time you could make one for harpies and kobolds? They are often included in race population breakdowns now on zone pages and we don't have icons for them. --Jiyambi t || c 15:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Done, and done. I also linked every single race/mount icon on my user page. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 20:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yay :) Can you make a wildkin one also? I just ran across that one while updating zoneboxes. --Jiyambi t || c 21:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Here it is. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 22:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You totally rock my socks. Thanks a bunch! --Jiyambi t || c 01:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

<3 you! Kirkburn  talk  contr 01:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

We might need something for half-elves unfortunately there is no specific icon or graphic for them :p... Perhaps use morph program to create something between humans and high elfs? LOL. Same goes for half-orcs :p...Baggins 02:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I've just been using high-elves and orcs, respectively, but it would be nice to have something different. --Jiyambi t || c 02:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing... how are these? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 22:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hehheh, works for me. BTW, I liked the full size images in Talk:Half-orc. Hope you do that for half-elfs too :).Baggins 07:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

If its not asking too much maybe some special icons for Wildhammer dwarves too ;).Baggins 07:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wildhammers are up: ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 22:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Varg, we should have a specific category for these, methinks. (Other than the template category). Kirkburn  talk  contr 18:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I concur. I'm not that familiar with template categories personally, but we could make it a subcategory of that other one... or are you thinking an entirely seperate category? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 18:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Subcategory sounds correct to me. And those look absolutely awesome, Varg :) --Jiyambi t || c 20:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you please make an icon for Pandaren too? I'm not sure if there are any pics of Pandaren Females, but I think there is one. Oh and can you make an icon for a lion and bear too please? Mr.X8 23:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Poor Varg... look what I've started.... --Jiyambi t || c 04:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Lion and bears aren't sentient they don't need to be in demographic lists. Pandaren icons should be easy as they existed in WC3 (tft), but there use would be extremely limited, and wouldn't be on any demographic lists.Baggins 05:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I made one for pandaren: . There's no proper female pic so it's silly to create one that might be misrepresentative. What do you want to do with the lion and bear ones? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 11:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

There are two drawings of a young female pandaren in Sam's personal gallery, but none of them are a good image of her face.--SWM2448 01:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I was going to use the pics to put on my toon's webpage. He he has a lion, bear, and crocolisk. Mr.X8 19:20, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Wait if lions and bears aren't sentinent, why do we have cows, wolves, hoses and chickens? Mr.X8 23:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know but they don't belong in demographic information lists.Baggins 23:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Bessy would beg, or moo, to differ. Kirkburn  talk  contr 00:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh do we use the ogre icon for ogre-mages? Mr.X8 00:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Visually there isn't much of a difference betwen ogres and ogre mages, considering that there are two headed ogres, and single headed ogre mages. Lore wise, we have been told that ogre mages tend to be blue.Baggins 00:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh and is there a Demon Hunter Class Icon? Could we use

Mr.X8 00:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a race icon for Nerubians please? Also one for Undead Dragons (Frost Wyrms), Gargoyles, Shades and Zombies would be sweet. Then again, their are not many Undead Dragons and they all look different based on their orgainal Dragonflight. --Buraisu (Talk · Contr) 01:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no demon hunter class icon because there's no demon hunter class... even deathknight doesn't have a public symbol yet. Squeezing two ogre heads into a pic doesn't make much sense. I don't have anything against making symbols for beasts as long as there's a reason... if there's a solid article that could put them to use, it's better. I did make one of a skeletal dragon, . Nerubians don't exist in the game (yet) so that's kind of hard. It would have to be a WC3 graphic somehow.----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 18:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Understood. Thank you for making the other icons. Mr.X8 23:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh and Wowwiki uses regular undead icons for undead creatures like trolls (in ZF), and High Elves (Dar'Khan)? Mr.X8 21:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a bunch of new icons, including titans, bear, boar, yeti, nerubian, and others. Check my user page. Dar'Khan has a unique skin, but I use the normal high elf icon for him, although the undead icon would make sense as well. For trolls, I'd probably just use one of the pre-existing troll icons. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 22:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Just dropping by to say someone made a list of them at WoWWiki:List of race and class icons. --Sky (t · c · w) 06:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah,I did but I got alot of them from Varghedin`s page,Can somebody help me get caught up please?-- Airiph/T/C/B 17:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

See Category:WoW Icon Templates - all the race icons are listed there. We have also started Category:Race Templates for things like {{Human Race}} = Human

EDIT: I forgot that I was subcategorizing the race icons to Category:Race Icon Templates, so hopefully soon they will all be found there.

--Jiyambi t || c 17:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Dar'khan is not an entirely unique skin, its used for some of the blood elves in Shadowmoon Valley, although they are also somewhat out of phase in appearance.Baggins 17:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

If it is possible,Do you think you can make Dark Troll icons?Unless you are to busy,then dont worry about it.-- Airiph/T/C/B 18:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Since it's now the "thing" to do, I have yet another image request. I have no idea if you would be able to do this, but essentially I am looking for an 18x18 pixel image of a chain to use to denote that a quest is part of a chain on quest list pages, and to link down to that chain. --Jiyambi t || c 22:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Like this?: ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 23:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

/cheer! Varg... you are really quite awesome. :) thanks! --Jiyambi t || c 23:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What Blood Elves in Shadowmoon use Dar'Khan's skin? Mr.X8 23:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The ones at Crimson watch.--SWM2448 23:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Warthok made an icon for the undead elf. But there's only a female one. Mr.X8 01:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Here it is Mr.X8 01:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, we need one for ghould, and is it possible one for dark trolls and lions? Mr.X8 01:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here's a list of wished-for icons:

• Nerubian
• Shade
• Gargoyle
• Ghoul
• DarkTroll
• UndeadElf
• Lion
• Bear ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 07:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You are awsome Varghedin!Sorry for overworkin` you.-- Airiph/T/C/B 14:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yay! Thank you so much! They look sick! Mr.X8 16:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Varg, do you use WoW Model Viewer, take a screenshot, crop the face and shrink it into a square icon to create racial icons? Wanna know ;))) --  Shandris  talk / contribs 11:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I do. I gave some details about the process in an earlier discussion above. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 12:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. So how do you get the model for the Mag'har? --  Shandris  talk / contribs 13:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Select the orc model, go to options, select use npc color, and change the skin color to mag'har brown ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 14:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Just when you thought you were done,Gan`arg and skeleton Perhaps?Thank you!-- Airiph/T/C/B 16:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Here they are: and .

I also completed the list of obtainable mounts, and added these in the process:

• Broom
• Nether Ray
• Phoenix
• Flying Machine
• Warhorse
• Felsteed
• Qiraji Tank
• Raven
• Talbuk

Also, for the Burning Legion article, ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 10:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You are doing an awesome job, Varghedin. I'd have a small request for you. Could you make icon templates for ice elementals, wretched and sand gnomes please?--K ) (talk) 12:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I made some more, are these okay?

• Wretched
• Sand Gnome
• Ice Elemental

--  Shandris  talk / contribs 13:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks nice, although I'd prefer if there was more zoom on the Wretched's face so it fills out the box more or less, like the other races. And for the elementals, a full body shot fits very nicely into the square box, like how it is with the others: . ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 13:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Sand Gnome one is perfect, thanks. I agree with Varghedin, the Wretched icon would be better with a closer caption, and the ice elemental is more recognizable when in full body shot. If one of you could readjust both icons it would be super helpful for the species article.--K ) (talk) 14:12, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I did a tweak. Going to take a look at that article now. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 15:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Great, as ever ;-) How did you like the article? It's kinda... Empty atm.--K ) (talk) 21:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Model Viewer ?

Umm,were would you type in Codes such as Demon Hunter Runes?-- Airiph/T/C/B 23:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Can you give me an example? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• 50122,43786,4,1,5,0,0,Black DemonHunter Runes
• 50123,43841,4,1,5,0,0,Purple DemonHunter Runes
• 50124,43788,4,1,5,0,0,Green DemonHunter Runes

I somewhat figured it out at the message boards there.Are there anymore Runes just not on the chest?-- Airiph/T/C/B 16:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what this stuff is. Sorry! ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 23:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Airiph found a model viewer website, and someone made a picture of a demon hunter, with runes on it's chest. That person put the "codes" for the demon hunter runes on that picture's caption. Airiph wanted to make a demon hunter so that's what he was asking.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 16:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I see. I don't know how to use such codes in the program, however. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 00:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

He means how to view this item which adds tattoos ("runes") on the chest of a player. Don't know if item exists in-game. --  Shandris  talk / contribs 17:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

You're the Boss

I recently found a picture of a pandaren screenshot, and since it's not real, I don't know if I can post it. Since you're an Admin, what do you say?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 05:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Fake pictures(ones that were fan drawn) are allowed, but are not for primary use except in fanfic pages. btw, read datamined to learn what it means.   Zurr  T ∙ C 05:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it's fake, and it came from WoW Insider, so I don't know if it's illegal, that's why I'm asking. BTW here it is-[1]   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

ROfl Varg you`r the boss! Airiph/T/C/B 05:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

He's an admin and he's nice because he puts up with our incessent asking about making new icons.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 05:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't be datamined because there aren't any pandaren models in the game files. Where do you wish to post this picture? Feel free to put it up here so we can get a better idea of its style. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 00:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I was going to download, but it turns out the same picture was on the site. I can go get it for you.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 00:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Here it is.

  Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

Yeah, I've seen that one before. Someone pasted a pandaperson from some other game into a WoW screenshot. You could post it in the chat, but as far as the main article goes, I think it should stay out. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Can I put it on my userpage and fan fic?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 16:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you can =) ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 16:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for helping me! :)   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

Just wanted to say that i really enjoy your page. Those little icons of all species in wow rocks. I appreciate everything you've done.  '//ired 0041, december 22 2007 (EST)

Well once again, I need your help. Since you have an amazing 40,000 edits all about WoW, do you happen to know the name of those orange & purple, double sided, looks almost like the ceremonial warmaul blood-blade, warglaives most demon hunters use? Allakhazam's article on it shows this picture too. Is it possible that was an old version of the blades? Oh and the NE on the box of the original WoW box, fighting the dragon, he has it.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 02:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That weapon is the legendary and unobtainable Glaive of the Defender. Note that if it ever does get released to the public, the stats will probably change dramatically, although it may have been entirely replaced by Warglaive of Azzinoth. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The glaive, does it show up on the WMV? And if no, is there anything that looks like, or even uses that model?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 00:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It does show up in WMV, as a mainhand weapon. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 00:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh good, thanks!   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 00:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You can also look under Glave in the WMV, for more types...I don't think bliz knows which way they want to call them. The Forged Glave is the same model as the older Warglaive of Azzinoth, but without the glow. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 01:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That looks wrong. It's a glaive, but it's not orange and purple, it's plain steel. Maybe try to update your WMV? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 21:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I'm sorry I forgot to delete it after Airiph did. He fixed it though.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 21:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like I had to update too...and after updating the only glaives on the list are the defender, and the warglaives of azzinoth...The old list had a lot more to choose from, but under glave, which is now gone. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! ^{{TDon't hiss at me.•CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.)} 22:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Race Icons

Hey Varg, I made this page: WoWWiki:List of race and class icons - thought you would like to know it existed. If you make any new icons, please add them to that page. In addition, all race icons are now under the subcategory Category:Race Icon Templates, instead of just Category:WoW Icon Templates - they were cluttering things up where they were. Let me know if any of this needs to be changed. -Jiyambi t || c 04:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok... there's also WoWWiki:List of race and class icons though. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What I wanted was something specifically so that when I need a race icon, I can see what they look like for each race on the same page as the code to make them. I dunno if other people will use it, and if need be I can move it to my user page. But I think I will find it useful. --Jiyambi t || c 20:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Like he said,WoWWiki:List of race and class icons,I worked hard on that!DONT REJECT ME!sorry Airiph/T/C/B 20:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, it wasn't what I needed (though it is beautiful and useful for other stuff), so chill :P -Jiyambi t || c 21:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL,well I dont know what you mean,the template page(not the image page)has it in the edit part if thats it Airiph/T/C/B 21:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I know, its just easier to see it all in one place without having to click edit and find the pic you were looking at. The page you made is great, I just wanted something compact that was sort of a one-stop shop for the race icons. If you really have an issue with it, I will move it to my user space. --Jiyambi t || c 21:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh Varghedin, what's your secret on creating pcitures of like half elves and half orcs?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 01:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

My secret is Photoshop, pure and simple. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 00:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Categories and such

I noticed you added category "Category:Zone:Nagrand". These type of categories have been deprecated (see WoWWiki:Zone category project). Since I know you have a manic obsession with editing NPCs, not only would it be great for you to reverse such doings (use the appropriate subcats and naming schema present already), but to change the categories as you move along to each NPC that you end up updating. If the cat doesn't exist at the point of the updating, that's alright, but better that than using an old style of catting. Feel free to wander around the subcats in order to get the feel for how they are catted and how each item fits into a category. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 09:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That was a reflex - old habits die hard. I'll work on that, thanks mate ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions? :) Besides which, they can be moved rather easily by using pywikipediabot; I'll go bug Piu or Fisker, I think. Or finally get it set up for myself. xD --Sky (talk | con | wh) 19:15, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, those. Aside :) And a Skybot could be neat. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 19:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I was pointing out to you that lower case is the correct convention (in case you missed that) :P --Sky (talk | con | wh) 19:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. *looks up 'putting aside' in the dictionary* :P ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 23:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Naga organization

Appears to be 'tribe' in the RPG, from intial references I'v found.

Death Hiss tribe, Hatecrest tribe, etc in Lands of Mystery.--Baggins 08:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input :) I thought clan sounded a bit strange, myself. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Lol, true. Although this is warcraft, the two terms get interchanged alot, :p... You should see how many times orc clan and orc tribes get interchanged in first Warcraft RPG book, :p. About 50/50 or so.The same thing goes for ogres even in the MMO itself, :p... To be frank I wish we could use a neutral term for the categories and articles that neither discredits the use of clans or tribes, something that allows both, :p...Baggins 08:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly certain what the proper difference between the two terms is, but to me 'clan' feels more organized and warlike, and 'tribe' feels more loose and socially-based. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, there is a distinct meaning in anthropology for the two. Tribes sub-groups within clans, at least for some cultures, IIRC. Essentially people could marry inside the clan, but not inside tribes. However that's not how it works in the RPG, :p...Baggins 08:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, and it appears centaur are usually called "tribes" more than clans. So far only references to them being tribes in the rpg...Baggins 08:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

In-game, the centaur refer to themselves as belonging in clans quite consistently. And the factions are called "Magram Clan Centaur" etc. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Still think this is an issue of Blizzard just mixing and matching the terminology. Yep, found references to centaur clans in the same books that say "centaur tribes", :p.Baggins 08:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fun, look at the synonyms, both clan and tribe are considered synonyms... [2] :p. Perhaps we can find something there that's generic that we can use in place of clan/tribe to avoid the interchanged words. Once we do that, we can point out within each related category that the groupings are called clan or tribe.Baggins 08:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Might be better than the qualitative distinction we have now. Although a supergroup of clan and tribe might be very bland or generic-sounding, like 'group' or 'division'... ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 08:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

'Group', might be the most, uh, compatible term though. ...or perhaps, "bands"?Baggins 09:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

association, band, brotherhood, bunch, clan, clique, coterie, crew, crowd, crush, faction, folks, fraternity, gang, group, house, insiders, kinfolks, mob, moiety, organization, outfit, race, ring, sect, set, society, sodality, stock, tribe, amalgamation, banding together, bunchalliance, cahoots, coalition, combination, confederation, conjunction, connection, hookup, incorporation, joining, league, merging, partnership, relationship, syndicate, tie-in, tie-up, union, affiliation, alliance, circle, club, combo, company, confederacy, congress, cooperative, corporation, family, federation, fellowship, guild, league, order, pool, rat pack, troops, troupe, zoo, association, community, comradeship, coterie, secret society? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 09:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

LoL, sometimes I don't understand how some words are even synonyms :p...