Talk: Zarnks

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Again, welcome!   --Kirkburn (talk)

Biased edits

It is plainly obvious that you are biased towards the Horde. Please, in future, attempt to write from a neutral point of view. For example http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Leper_gnome&diff=prev&oldid=658349 ... being hostile to the Alliance in no way makes them not slaves. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

They do make no attempts to escape. They are never said to be slaves either. They could just be laborers. with bad working conditions. Zarnks 19:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

And a guard. In the middle of a capital city without other gnomes, populated by elves with odd views of right and wrong. Yes, it's possible, but unlikely :P Edited the article to show both possibilities. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well who else would hire them. It also seems to be a parody of sweatshops. In sweatshops the workers aren't slaves. just under bad conditions. Zarnks 19:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"Parody" is an odd phrase to use, and sweatshops can essentially be slavery. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a parody(not saying it is non canon) of the rumours nike sweatshops in certain communist countries. WOW is full of parodies. And you do get paid for working in sweatshops,you just have bad conditions. Besides if you kill the guard the gnomes make no attempt to escape and continue working. Zarnks 19:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick reminder to please try and use as little biased language as possibly. Words such as "unfortunately" have no place in factual articles, unless specifically required. Thanks! User:Kirkburn/Sig3 04:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

As an example "Unfortuntely Daelin wants to kill all orcs" is biased ... whereas "Unfortuntely for Thrall, Daelin wants to kill all orcs" is not biased (but now far too wordy!). Hope that helps explain? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 04:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I realise you know a lot about the horde, but please try and restrict the number of places you put their view/info. It is not appropriate to add very specific details about factions on the Outland page, for example. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 00:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. Zarnks 00:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit wars

Do not engage in edit wars. If you have a controversial edit, YOU are the one to dicuss it first. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I already created a posted on it in the discussion page. Zarnks 19:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't excuse continually reverting the page from an admin. Let the discussion occur first. Oh, and this is your final warning. It's a good idea to listen to admins. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Despite your opinions that a contradiction of some sort exists, there are also differing opinions. First off have you ever heard of retcons? Sometimes older material is updated in newer sources, other times flavor lore exists.. Secondly it is the policy of this wiki, that all sources are of equal validity. Novels, RPG, Games, Manga are equal sources of lore as stated by Metzen. We list all info at equal level, and we don't make them one sided to horde or alliance. It is not a dichotomy, we avoid the pro-alliance, and pro-horde debate by putting all views of the issue into the information. We also give published sources dates whenever possible.

If you feel like a contradiction exists, you are free to discuss it in the talk pages, but they do not belong in the articles.Baggins 19:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well then Post on It. I already created it on the talk page but no is responding to it. Zarnks 19:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Because you keep reverting the page. The wiki acts on the scale of days, not seconds. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless there is clearly a contradiction,you and baggins just seem to be biased to discuss it. Zarnks 19:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The page already mentions the contradictions and gives both sides of the argument. You appear trying to insinuate that the RPG is the one that is wrong. The issue is complicated and has many sides. It is not a case of "the game" vs "the books". User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

All I said was that it was a typo on the part of the part of the writers. I never said which writers. It could be a typo on the part of the site/game writers or on the part of the rpg writers. Zarnks 19:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You have tested my patience enough. I am giving you a day's suspension from the wiki so you can relax and perhaps come back and discuss the edit with us. (WW:3RR). User:Kirkburn/Sig3 20:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You have done it again, and this time have received a 3 day suspension. You were warned several times in the Talk:Future race ideas page, that this action would happen if you continued to revert and remove info from the page. As a future warnig repeated offenses generally become progressively worse, so don't repeat this again, or initiate future edit wars. As a side note your info is in the page already for neutrality, and to fit published lore.09:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Future race ideas

Some of these edits severly annoy me - specifically all the Pandaren edits and the Alliance shamanism comment. I'm sure I don't need to explain why. Don't do it. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 16:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Done a bit more work through it, it wasn't all bad :) Though if I see you slip "the horde is known to be very forgiving" into an article again, I will scream. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 16:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Marking edits as minor

Please don't do it as much - it is only really for use for typos and grammar correction. Thanks :) User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Talk pages

What exactly are you trying to prove? I remind you (again) that this is not a forum. While most everyone is prepared to discuss the occasional lore point on the talk page, the purposes of the talk pages are to discuss changes to the article, not random lore discussions. In future, I suggest you use the analysis subpages for your lore discussions, if you feel that people would like to talk about the subject. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

uncited information

I've warned you about posting informatin without using the Template:Tlink or Template:Tlink. I've also warned you about reposting informatino and claiming it was cited when you haven't cited it. I've also warned you about using "qualifiers" like "some", "few" etc, unless you could post citations as to those terms being used or strongly implied by correctly cited quotes. Others have also warned you against using individuals of a race to discuss bias of the whole, but you continue to try to do that. I've told you i'd be giving you a 5 (2 more days more than your previous bans, if I caught you doing this again), I've even given you some mercy, and let a few infractions slide. However, I'm noticing it occuring between you and raze on a couple of articles. The same complaints I've been getting by many members of the forums, the same complains and warnings I've given you, I've seen you do the same kind of thing on tauren and forsaken analysas page. I'm sorry to have to do this but you will be getting your 5 day ban soon. This is to let you know why you have been banned.Baggins 05:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Aww. But there are tauren who seek to cure the forsaken for instance the council of elders and the Earthen ring. I gave my cite, Mani winterhoof and the council of elders in Thunderbluff where Magatha holds a position. Zarnks 05:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Claiming to have "cited" something is not hte same as using Template:Tlink, which is a correct form of citation method. Sorry but you were warned several times this week, you are now banned, enjoy your vacation. Please don't do this again when you return, the next level of "ban" is two weeks.Baggins 05:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Adys one of the more senior admins has decided that 1 week was not enough for repeat offenses, and has increased your ban to 3 months. Enjoy your vacation, please don't repeat the infractions when you return... I can't stress this enough, if you make the same infractions and get banned too many times, you'll finally reach the nasty "permaban", and you'll never get to contribute again. I don't think you would enjoy or want that.Baggins 15:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This isn't an exact quote but it does say that that the elder council pities the forsaken. I'll revert if you don't like the link)

Thank you. When I ask for a "citation" means give a link, a quest name, a page number, etc. A citation should always be included if a claim is made, or someone might dispute the information.Baggins 02:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Is the link okay? Zarnks 02:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems fine. Others can judge if your interpretation is fair or not. If you can find a citation for a more direct reference, you can add the link as well.Baggins 02:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The best example would be the tauren view the tauren view the forsaken like Leper victims which they are kinda of. Zarnks 02:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If you find the quote where certain tauren think of Forsaken as "lepers" by all means add it in and cite it. If you can't cite it, it would have to be marked with the citation needed comment. It would be removed, if a citation wasn't added.Baggins 02:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well thats what I get from the descriptions of the foraken by the guards,the Earthen ring and Mani Winterhoof. Some tauren want to create a cure for undeath. Most of this is dialogue so it can't be taken from Wowhead or Thottbott. Zarnks 02:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Directly quote the guards, Earthen Ring, etc, even better take screenshots. Then put the comment in the talk page for the topic. Seeing a direct quote is much better in order to make sure context is being preserved.Baggins 02:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm taking a break from Wow now. We already got the citation though. Zarnks 02:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

One citation sure, more is better. Just take screenshots when you get a chance. I can't do it myself for a while, busy.Baggins 02:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Two Hordes

I think you are missing the point of the Two Hordes article. Its to highlight differences between the two parts of the horde and to "chronicle" all details that make a "rift" between them, the majority rather than minorities. The nitty gritty of relationship information about minorities should be found in each race's individual pages.Baggins 05:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah ok. Zarnks 05:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No prob, :).Baggins 05:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Playable trolls

Actually so far the playable trolls in the RPG as far as full featured rules, are Darkspear jungle trolls, and Revantusk forest trolls. There are ways to play as other kinds of trolls but it takes some conversion processes, and special rules.Baggins 01:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm the game makes it pretty clear that they don't pratice cannibalism,troll quest givers denouncing it. Zarnks 07:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes there are those that denounce it, and many have probably honestly stopped being cannibals. However, others are apparently hyprocrites who have denouned it in public, but still practice it behind the Horde's back, its said many still practice it in secret. Its hard to tell the numbers, of those who have truly stopped being cannibals and those that still practice it, though, to know if its a minority or a majority that still practice it, and its left to individual choice. Also it should be noted that "cannibalism" in warcraft definition is eating any sapient species, not just one's own race.Baggins 07:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Several troll quest givers denounce cannibalism and its stated the officialy gave it up. One of those writers in the rpg always seemed to have it out for trolls. Zarnks 07:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Are my edits to the darkspear article okay with you? Zarnks 07:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, its stated that darkspear trolls claim to have "officially" given it up, but you seem to forget how real world mechanics work. Just because someone can claim to give up smoking doesn't mean they might not practice it behind people's backs. Nor can government claim to do away with drinking or pot, and have every member of society abide by those rules (just look at history)... Should I point out again that Metzen is behind the RPG, and that its multi-writer work (I.E. all the writers have to go through Metzen and he has to agree, before it can be printed)?

Having reviewed the article I've decided you were the one with the misconception, and I've reworded it to be closer to official lore.Baggins 08:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No the misconception is that Darkspears are cannibals not no longer cannibals thats just reinforcing the misconception. It is illegal for Trolls to pratice cannibalism in the Horde.

What I will write if I can. It is a misconception that Darkspear trolls are cannibals. While they officialy gave it up(making it illegal in the Horde) when joining the Horde Template:Cite, and there are Revantusk who down on this concept , an unknown number are still known to practice cannibalism. These Darkspear trolls practice it in the secret. In the RPG, Darkspear trolls & Forsaken can share the Cannibalize ability (its use is up to individual choice). See [Cannibalize] for more info.Template:Cite. World of Warcraft implies that the majority by far are not cannibalistic,with many troll npcs denouncing other tribes for praticing it. Zarnks 08:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've done a bit more wordsmithing on it to prevent it implying Darkspearss still cannibalise en masse. Thoughts? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 08:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Why did you get rid of the line saying Revantusk look down on cannibals. And its still reinforcing the misconception. It is illegal for trolls in the Horde, and most trolls look denounce it. By far they are not cannibals. Are we going to say Duskwood humans are cannibals next because of Abecrombie. Zarnks 08:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Its illegal for people to smoke pot, and yet people still do it. Laws are broken. Just because a law exists doesn't mean that all people follow it.Baggins 08:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not it is illegal isn't relevant to whether they actually do it. Your comparison, meanwhile, is absurd. I have added an intor sentence to the text to explain both sides. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 08:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Officialy they are non cannibalistic. It should be mentioned that the majority don't pratice it and it is illegal. Every race has its crazies that don't represent their population. Zarnks 08:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

"at which point the Darkspears officially gave up cannibalism." From Blizzard,they are officialy non Cannibals. Zarnks 08:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Also officially from Blizzard, "Forsaken are undead, and thus are unable to heal without magical aid. Studying ghouls and abominations, some Forsaken mimic their ability to devour flesh to restore their own. Historically, trolls are cannibals, and have learned to consume flesh to accelerate their own healing. Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act." Template:Cite

"The Darkspear tribe no longer practices cannibalism — at least not openly."Template:Cite -Template:Baggins08:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll say it again, every race has its crazies that don't represent their population. Metzen has called the Darkspear trolls good guys from a evil race, doing all they can to steer straight. They are officialy good and not evil. Every race has its crazies that don't represent their population. Zarnks 08:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The point of the section is to analyse whether cannibalism still exists - the quotes and citations so far do not appear to suggest it is limited to a very few individuals, even if it is a minority of the race as a whole. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 08:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'd like to say whoever thinks cannibals are evil, is really thinking from a ethnocentric point of view... The culturalists, sociologists, and anthropologists on the other hand would consider it an amoral cultural belief, neither good nor evil. That is it might be evil in a western society, but not necessarily evil in an another society.Baggins 08:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it depends. Eating someone who is already dead neither is ritual cannibalism like eating the finger of a leader(it'll grow back) is not bad. Going out of your way to eat someone is. Zarnks 17:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep, you are so ethnocentric. The Aztecs had ritual sacrifice of live humans and cannibalism of human hearts. It was not believed to be evil in their society.Baggins 17:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if they are willingly or trying to kill you, its okay. You said so yourself "Cannibalizing the corpse of a good or intelligent neutral creature is an evil act." Template:Cite" Zarnks 17:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was quoting the RPG, doesn't mean I was agreeing from it from an anthropological standpoint.

Actually Aztec cannibalism, the sacrfice was not trying to kill anyone, and was a member of the society (some argue it was considered a great honor to be the sacrifice, and believed that they gave themselves willingly). While others would self sacrifce themselves, removing parts of their body to offer to the gods. All of which was not considered evil in Aztec society, nor do most scientists believe it is evil to this day, unless they are ethnocentric to begin with.Baggins 17:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well in real life they aren't any actual cannibals that go out of their way to eat people. And if their willingly,already,already dead,ritual cannibalism,or nessecary for survival its okay with me. Zarnks 17:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well actually there are stories in Papau New Guinea from various clans of their clans going out and attacking other clans and then killing and eating them, or being raided by other clans, and having relatives eaten. Anthropologists argue on the veracity of the tales, but no one knows for sure. But most believe if the stories are true, that they were amoral acts, and not an act of "evil", perhaps of necessity and survival, perhaps to scare tribes from breaking out into much larger and bloody conflicts, or for religious reasons. No one really knows for sure. Most of the tribes do not believe their actions were evil, unless filtered through later western missionary teachings.Baggins 18:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

"New Horde"

Ok, let's look at Eitrigg's quest adn how you have you misinterpreted it.

First off, Title of a Quest does not relate to literal lore, nor is it something said by characters to one another. Otherwise "Are We There Yeti?" would mean something profound to lore, :p.

Secondly a title is always capitalized, even if the term itself may not be, as in the use of "new Horde", or "new horde" in other sources.

Third, Eitrigg even call the entity "The Horde" and claims that it has changed, but never once has he said it ceased being the same horde. Nor does he personally use the term "new Horde".

Lastly, Eitrigg claims in Horde Player's Guide that it is the same Horde, that it just has changed, nearly word for word or at least meaning for meaning, what was in that quest. Please don't let me catch you misinterpreting information again.

Also, the official name for modern Horde, is simply "Horde" the same name it always was. "new horde" might be a nickname, but we use formal names in articles rather than "nicknames". Nicknames, are limited to secondary information in sources rather than primary, either in a names section, or in notes.Baggins 07:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There is the citation from Blizzplanet. Oh heres one from the website[1]. Zarnks 08:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Again two things. One again that is the title of an article. Titles of an article are always upper case, even if the phrase itself is actually lower case. Its lower case "new horde" in warcraft III, and its used a a nickname. The book actually referrs to two seperate entities as the "new horde", and one of them has nothing to do with Thrall but, Beyond the Dark Portal.

Secondly that article was made back in 2004 or so. There are plenty of sources made over the course of 2005-2007 that state that "new Horde" and "new horde" is only a nickname, not literal, for original Horde that went through changes under Thrall.

Even Eitrigg in the game just says the Horde has changed. He doesn't say the "Horde ceased to be". I don't understand why you want to twist his words. If the older horde no longer existed, then it "couldn't change" by logic. The fact it still exists means it could change.Baggins 08:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because it was made in 2004 doesn't it make any less accurate. It is refered by Blizzard itself as the New Horde,therefore it is a valid name. The Old Horde lies with rend and the Illidan. 99% of the orcs in the Horde didn't like the old Horde,the ones who did are with Rend or Illidan. Doomhammer himself wasn't fond of it and longed for the days on Draenor. Zarnks 08:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"make any less accurate."

First off let me remind you of "retcons" Blizzard can decide to change things on whim, that is something said back in 2003, or even 2004, can be wiped out by something said at a more recent date if Blizzard so decides to. If older information does not comply with newer information, it can be "out of date and inaccurate" due to retcons.

They have decided that "new horde" is simply a nickname even as far back as warcraft III it was first mentioned in italics the universal designation for nicknames, and its called simply "Horde" in the game, its official formal name. Blizzard also states its a nickname in Lands of Mystery as well. Also i'm sure you know of the starting screen in WoW, the official name for the organization is simply, "Horde", not "new horde", "new Horde", "New Horde" (lower case "new" is actually the proper grammatical use of the term, its only capitalized when its a title of an article, but lower case when used in a sentences).

Again primary names are used in articles not nicknames to keep articles formal. Secondly you do understand that the RPG is by Blizzard as well? Metzen is in charge of them as he is the game itself. I repeat, Eitrigg just refers to the Horde, as the Horde, and that the Horde has changed, but its still only the Horde. Again he points out in his own words, that the Horde one entity capable of change, and it was still around to be able to go through change. If they were two entities and the previous one ceased to exist, he would have said so. A non-existing organization would not have been able to change.

P.S. you may have cited Blizzplanet, but blizzplanet did not cite its source, thus making it improper and invalid source of information. If you are going to cite a source, you need to make sure the source itself has correct citations. Believe me when I tell you this you need to go back to school (if you aren't in one), or go to college and take a course in higher-level english to learn proper citation methods[2], and difference betwen proper sources and how to judge for source credibility on the internet.Baggins 09:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The Blizzplanet is an excerpt from the Story section of the rpg.

"I repeat, Eitrigg just refers to the Horde, as the Horde, and that the Horde has changed, but its still only the Horde. Again he points out in his own words, that the Horde one entity capable of change, and it was still around to be able to go through change. If they were two entities and the previous one ceased to exist, he would have said so. A non-existing organization would not have been able to change." For the sake of making things less complicated,we should call it the New Horde(a valid nick name used by Blizzard itself). Zarnks 22:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Again I remind its not a "capitalized" term except when used as a title for a quest or article, otherwise its lower case or only Horde is upper case. Please understand correct grammatical uses of article titles vs. in paragraph uses. Secondly the way we are using things now is not complicated at all, except maybe for people with small brain pans to begin with, that have little understanding of context and meaning...Baggins 22:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Intelligence

What did you mean by blood elves having more intelligence than gnomes by one point? I loaded a base mage for both races and they had equal intelligence, 27. Likely due to the fact that the gnome has the "Expansive Mind" racial trait, which gives it 5% more intelligence. On a related note blood elves and gnomes have the same intelligence in the RPG as well, although that has no relation since both systems are completely different games with different mechanics. In anycase you must remember game statistics do not = lore. Its all game mechanic stuff. I don't want to catch you trying to modify lore based on game statistic information in the future, please.Baggins 08:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

By intellect I meant game stats. Zarnks 08:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Their "Int" game stat are equal per class. A rogue of both races starts with 24. A mage of both races starts with 27. So basically your information was off.Baggins 08:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Their starting intellect stat is higher then gnomes. Take a good look at the games and this site itself. Zarnks 22:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Your forgetting, gnomes have "expansive mind" racial ability, i.e. 5% more intelligence, which ends up making their int = to blood elves after its factored in. Just go into the game and check it out...Baggins 22:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So blood elf intellect is equal to gnomes. Gnomes have little common sense though and may be not as intelligent as goblins. Zarnks 22:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually goblins technology is all about blowing themselves up... So common sense wise? Goblins are probably worse, but I'd say both are crazy. Actually gnomish technology if you take engineering is generally safer than goblin tech, and generally doesn't break down. I'll go check the stats for Goblins in the RPG and how they compare to Blood Elves and Gnomes as far as Intelligence, knowing that game system they'll probably turn out to be equal though.Baggins 22:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Goblins always made more things. They aren't safe as gnomish technology but are often more effective. Zarnks 22:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Your source that "goblins always made more things"?

Going by the RPG which lists hundreds of items both have made, I'd say they both about equal as far as inventions and technology goes, infact they have always had a kind of competition going on, to see who could make the best technology or improve on each others (improvement to gnomes is to make it safer, improve to goblin is to make it more destructive even if it hurts the user). Actually Gnomish tech is always been described as being more reliable, and they are quite effective for what they do. But you can't judge a bomb vs. time machine (yep at least one gnome made one, Chrono Sphare or something like that), there is no compatible relation. Gnomish technology is generally devoted to improving the way of life of people, and defense of people, where as goblins are more devoted to making weapons (weapons aren't the only thing in life)...

In game generally goblin tech is all about bombs, where as gnomish tech is all about useful defensive tech, and fun gadgets that do a variety of things, such as give buffs and debuffs. In game both fields of engineering have equal number of engineering plans to learn, denying your idea that "goblins" make more stuff.Baggins 22:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about

• shredders

• Zepplins(which completly outclassed gyrocopters)

• creating a giant robot out of nothing

• A spaceship

• hobgoblins

• They forged Deathwing's armor,and the dragon soul.

• missile launchers attached to turtles

• Troll beserkers,

• making super strong ogres. Unlike gnomes,Goblins don't stick to one thing and are expert alchemists. They forged Deathwing's armor,and the dragon soul.

That Gnomish time machine didn't even work anyway. Compare this to poor gnome quality which was easily copied by the dwarves. In world of Warcraft goblin technology is considered more effective. Goblins have been in Azeroth way longer then the gnomes seen in WOTA. Gnomes are probably some mutant offshoot. Zarnks 22:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"shredders"

Gnomes had tanks, and robots that do the same kind of thing. Ever been to Gnomeregan?

"Zepplins(which completly outclassed gyrocopters)"

Zepplins and gyrocopters aren't even in the same field. Zepplins are usually more of a transport ship.

In Warcraft II they both were just scouts, and could not combat at all. They were equals.

"creating a giant robot out of nothing"

Gnomes have lots of giant robots. Ever been to Gnomeregan?

A spaceship

At least one gnome has made a space ship as well. See Magic and Mayhem series.

"hobgoblins"

Alchemy not technology, and gnomes have alchemists too, ever hear of the potion docs. Although they probably have ethical view against genetic tampering.

"They forged Deathwing's armor,and the dragon soul."

That is more of a black smithing thing that having to do with engineering. Their are black smiths in the gnomes too. Hell if deathwing went to gnomes he could have had them do it for him too, unless gnomes had some kind of ethical thing against helping him in that way. What they did was something anyone could have done as long as they had blacksmithing knowledge, and knowledge given to them by Deathwing himself.

"missile launchers attached to turtles"

Submarines with missile launchers..., and was completely technological.

"Troll beserkers"

Alchemy not technology, and gnomes have alchemists too. Though probably have better ethical standards against genetic tampering..

"making super strong ogres."

Same as above. Gnomes could do it too, probably have better ethical standards. Although in WoW there are quests where some crazy gnomes are working on similar kinds of alchemist potions to "improve" others.

"Unlike gnomes,Goblins don't stick to one thing and are expert alchemists."

Gnomes are the same way, there are many gnomish fields, and are interested in a variety of subjects, that's why many are scientists, mages, potion docs, alchemists, etc, and many like to combine knowledge in those fields with technology.

...and it was good gnome quality and the fact it was good is why the dwarves chose to copy it, rather than copy shoddy blow up in your face goblin tech. Think about real life, people don't copy or improve on technology that fails they work on proven technology, and work to improve it further, or copy it in order to try to compete with those that have made successes. In real life often the most simple to understand technologies are the best. Most goblin tech is easy to copy too, but most people wouldn't want to do it do to the danger it causes to the user, and others, since they tend to blow up and fall upart too easily. They generally involve alot of rope and wood and nail construction, rather than bolts and screws, so are rather flimsy in comparison.

I could name a hundred more technologies both sides have made. Both sides have around the equal number of technology. I could count them all but that would be pointless and anal.

That Gnomish time machine didn't even work anyway.:

Actually the story I refer to it worked for him, but no one else could copy the technology to get it to work for them.

"In world of Warcraft goblin technology is considered more effective."

Your saying by the fans? LIke that has anything to do with lore. Nor is it a credible point.

oblins have been in Azeroth way longer then the gnomes seen in WOTA. Gnomes are probably some mutant offshoot."

Actually gnomes apparently are cousins to the Dwarves, and share many of the same titan heritage, through Khaz'goroth. Probably around same time as humans, which have history as far back as WOTA as well. They just didn't help out during the war, neither did the humans.Baggins 23:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Gnomes had tanks, and robots that do the same kind of thing. Ever been to Gnomeregan?:

none as effective as shredders. Why else do you think the Alliance hire's shredders.

Zepplins and gyrocopters aren't even in the same field. Zepplins are usually more of a transport ship.

In Warcraft II they both were just scouts, and could not combat at all. They were equals.: Incorrect,Zepplins were used even by the Alliance because they were more effective and could hold more people.

"Gnomes have lots of giant robots. Ever been to Gnomeregan?" The goblin tinkers literally created them out of nothing instantly.

"At least one gnome has made a space ship as well. See manual of monsters series." Obviously it wasn't that great as the Goblin spaceship is talked about more in the game and is way bigger.

"Alchemy not technology, and gnomes have alchemists too, ever hear of the potion docs. Although they probably have ethical view against genetic tampering." Gnome alchemist have never done anything worth remebering ever. Whats wrong with genetic tampering,thats what created the night elves.

"That is more of a black smithing thing that having to do with engineering. Their are black smiths in the gnomes too. Hell if deathwing went to gnomes he could have had them do it for him too, unless gnomes had some kind of ethical thing against helping him in that way. What they did was something anyone could have done as long as they had blacksmithing knowledge, and knowledge given to them by Deathwing himself." The goblins aren't willing servants,they hate working for Deathwing. Deathwing didn't know how to make the armor,that was done totally by the goblins. If gnomes were better,he would have captured some gnomes. But they didn't exist then or weren't advanced yet.

"Submarines with missile launchers..., and was completely technological." Turtles was more creative and resourceful. Why waste materials building a sub when a turtle will do?

"Alchemy not technology, and gnomes have alchemists too. Though probably have better ethical standards against genetic tampering." Genetic tampering created the night elves. Beserkers loved their newfound power. Seen any gnome give someone permenant super strength like that?

"Same as above. Gnomes could do it too, probably have better ethical standards. Although in WoW there are quests where some crazy gnomes are working on similar kinds of alchemist potions to "improve" others." Genetic tampering created the night elves. Ogres loved their newfound power. Seen any gnome give someone permenant super strength like that?

"and it was good gnome quality and the fact it was good is why the dwarves chose to copy it, rather than copy shoddy blow up in your face goblin tech. Think about real life, people don't copy or improve on technology that fails they work on proven technology, and work to improve it further, or copy it in order to try to compete with those that have made successes. In real life often the most simple to understand technologies are the best. Most goblin tech is easy to copy too, but most people wouldn't want to do it do to the danger it causes to the user, and others, since they tend to blow up and fall upart too easily. They generally involve alot of rope and wood and nail construction, rather than bolts and screws, so are rather flimsy in comparison." Sounds like your just singing the gnomes praises because they are Alliance. Goblin technology has been showcased way more in the games and lore.

"Actually the story I refer to it worked for him, but no one else could copy the technology to get it to work for them." Obviously he was delusional. No way the aspects would let a machine do their job

"Actually gnomes apparently are cousins to the Dwarves, and share many of the same titan heritage, through Khaz'goroth. Probably around same time as humans, which have history as far back as WOTA as well. They just didn't help out during the war, neither did the humans." Believed,there is no proof. How do you know goblins aren't related to dwarves as well. There is no proof at all they came around the same time as the humans,and they weren't mentioned in the War of the ancients making it likely they didn't exist or were too primitive at that point to be of use.

Your just being Alliance biased. Zarnks 23:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

P"Why else do you think the Alliance hire's shredders." They hired shreders, because there were no gnomes around during the Third War. It had nothing to do with effectiveness, just a complete lack of gnomes to build things for them.

"Alliance because they were more effective and could hold more people."

Incorrect, gnomes weren't around during Warcraft III, so they couldn't go to them for any flying transport technology, they had to hire goblin zeps because that was all they had access to.

Again during Warcraft II zeps and flying machines were just scouting devices. They couldn't carry anything.

"Turtles was more creative and resourceful. Why waste materials building a sub when a turtle will do?"

First off you know how fragile the wooden buildings were on those subs, just ropes and nails... Its not that resourceful they first had to catch the turtles and enslave them... Not exactly ethical, different kind or morality to be sure. Its also only half technology, the other half is biological. Some would argue that it was a cheat.

"Obviously it wasn't that great as the Goblin spaceship is talked about more in the game and is way bigger."

We don't know the size of the gnome space ship, and it was made on Azeroth. The one in WoW is discussed because its the first spaceship in Outland. Since the previous one doesn't relate to Outland it has little baring to that one. No reason to bring it up, it would be off topic, and people wouldn't understand the reference.

And goblins do not create robots "out of nothing", that's a game mechanic. In lore they have to create the clockwerk goblins, and release them. You are just being silly...

The time traveling gnome, actually he took some crystals from Caverns of Time to use in his technology, so its based on Bronze Aspect material.

"Sounds like your just singing the gnomes praises because they are Alliance. Goblin technology has been showcased way more in the games and lore."

Actually it sounds like your being Horde or goblin biased. Because in the lore Goblin and Gnome tech has been showcased about equally. They both originally appeared in Warcraft II publishing wise, gnomes were mentioned to be behind the tanks and flying machines seen in Warcraft III, and goblins could be seen in the game as well. And both show up in WoW. In the RPG both technology is showcased equally. If anything I'm being neutral. I never said the gnomes have more things than goblins, but that both have equal amounts of technology.

Actually its not just believed, there is actually proof for the gnomes connection to Khaz'goroth, many also have ability to "stone skin".

Btw, about Deathwing, there is a major retcon there, in Warcraft Beyond the Dark Portal manual it explains that goblins gave him adamatine armor during the Second War, while they were allies of the Horde, and enjoyed doing it... Though perhaps maybe they had to give him new armor...?

First off your the one that actually seems to be being Horde biased, or maybe in this case goblin biased.

Second off how am I being Alliance biased?

I'm just listing technology invented by gnomes, and the facts as accounted in lore. You were acting like gnomes never made any of the things goblins did, I was correcting you. If anything I was being neutral.

As far as mentioning ethics? Its a known fact that gnomes have a completely different set of morality than goblins have. To goblins money is the bottom line, in their own words. But as far as both sides having technology they both have it, and its both effective in their own ways. Neither is more effective than the other. Even gnome explosives are just as effective, but generally more stable than goblin technology. They just don't tend to make nearly as many explosives as goblins do, and tend to a wider variety of types of technology and gadgets, that each do different things (At least in WoW where any engineer player can choose to go either goblin or gnomish).Baggins 23:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Alliance had access to Gyrocopters in warcraft 3 they just prefered the Zepplins because they were better. Zarnks 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

1. In Warcraft 3, gyrocopters and zeppelins were completely different... gyrocopters were combat units, zeppelins were transports.

2. It's hilarious that you accuse anyone of bias. --Flyspeck 00:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"In Warcraft 3, gyrocopters and zeppelins were completely different... gyrocopters were combat units, zeppelins were transports." Originally they were both scout and transport units in the second war but they were ineffective at that job.

2. It's hilarious that you accuse anyone of bias.

I'm not saying I'm completly fair and neutral but I think he's supporting gnomes becaus they are Alliance. Zarnks 00:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Actually, in Warcraft 2, both zeppelins and gnomish flying machines (not dwarven gyrocopters, note) were merely scouts.

2. Attempting to counteract another's bias is not bias itself. --Flyspeck 00:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Actually, in Warcraft 2, both zeppelins and gnomish flying machines (not dwarven gyrocopters, note) were merely scouts." Seen in cutscenes they were also transports but Gyrocopters could carry much less due to being small Zarnks 00:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm neither supporting either gnomes or goblins, I'm just stating that both have made an equal impact on the world as far as technology, and that Blizzard has described both types of technology in different terms. You were the one that first were trying to falsly deny the gnome's history in the world, while trying to make the Horde appear technologically superior.

Plus I have to ask why does matter if one race is more intelligent than another? What point does it serve? Or was it just your kind of lame attempt at racist comparison in order to try to make one race appear superior to another (I.E. cueing the goosestepping marching music, while burning a cross)...

And flytrap is right you can't compare Zeppelins and Flying Machines/Gyrocopters in Warcraft III/TFT because one was air support and one was transport, completely different kind of units in the game, designed for entirely different purposes.

Btw, if you sent a gyrocopter/flying machine after a goblin zep in Warcraft III, tell me which one would win that battle? The gyrocopter/flying machine of course because the zep can't defend itself, its not a fighting unit.Baggins 00:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey you were claiming goblin technology was shoddily built and poor quality.

"The gyrocopter/flying machine of course because the zep can't defend itself, its not a fighting unit." But if it would make a good bomber. And in the longer term Zepplins are more useful as they can transport a large amount of soldiers to an enemy base. Zarnks 00:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Hey you were claiming goblin technology was shoddily built and poor quality."

Again in Warcraft III the game is designed in that they are seperate units, one is a fighter and the other is a transport, and inbetween they do not meet. You cannot bomb with the Zepplin. There is no way for the game to allow you to bomb with the zepplin.

I didn't claim it, Blizzard has claimed it, and if you have by chance taken the time to read the little tidbits of information underneath various gadgets and engineering items in game haven't you? Those descriptions point it out. When you get to the point where you have to choose between Goblin and Gnome tech you are told the same thing... There are entire books or sections in books devoted gnome and goblin tech that describe this difference, see Magic and Mahyem, and More Magic and Mayhem for examples.Baggins 00:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

When did Blizzard claim it,they call it more dangerous but not shoddy. Zarnks 00:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Read the descriptions on the bottom of many of the engineer items and you see it reads "more dangerous to the user" and use terms like "shoddy", rather than "dangerous". Also finish engineering up to the point where you have to choose between Gnomish and Goblin, its also described there as well. ...and read Blizzard's published, Magic and Mayhem, and More Magic and Mayhem as well, plenty of examples in those.Baggins 00:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The written lore for flying machines and zeppelins from Warcraft II manual;

Gnomish Flying Machines The Gnomes of Khaz Modan have long offset their lack of physical strength with ingenuity and daring. As members of the Alliance, they have continued to display their talents by inventing and piloting the unbelievable Flying Machine. Although having no armaments, these awkward contraptions can be used to survey vast areas of terrain, and detecting the otherwise hidden movements of underwater units (as all flying units can), making them invaluable for discovering the movements of the Horde.Template:Cite

Goblin Zeppelin Zeppelins are ingenious inventions that allow small teams of Goblins to soar above the countryside and spy on enemy positions. The Zeppelins are cumbersome, awkward and maintain no armament. Their airborne capabilities, extensive line of sight, and ability to spot underwater units (as with all flying units), however, make them an integral part of the Horde's spy network.Template:Cite

Gnomish Submarine The resourceful Gnomish Inventors have designed an amazing craft known as the Submarine. This watertight vessel can submerge beneath the waves and surreptitiously keep watch on enemy forces above the surface. The Gnomish Submarine is visible only to Towers, aerial forces, and other vessels that move beneath the waves. Using cunning and craft to carry out surprise attacks on more powerful enemies makes the Submarine an invaluable part of the Lordaeron armada.

Giant Turtle These Giant sea Turtles are native to the southern seas and were captured by the Stormreaver clan. Pacified by potent spells of control, these lumbering monstrosities are fitted with watertight canopies strapped onto the backs of their shells and are used as submersible Orcish craft. By submerging under the waves, the Giant Turtles can steal upon unsuspecting enemy craft and report their position to the Horde fleet as they are visible solely to Towers, creatures of the air, and other submersible vessels. The daring Goblins who control them are dedicated to destroying enemy ships by launching hazardous, steam-driven canisters containing highly volatile liquids that can shred even the strongest armor.

So both flying units are described "awkward", but goblins is also described as "cumbersome". One negative for the gnomes, and two for the goblins, although both are said to be smart inventors.

As for the sea turtle it sounds like Stormreaver clan had more to do with them than the goblins(who are only described as pilots), and the gnomes are praised for the submarine as being resourceful...Baggins 00:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Checked Warcraft RPG, and Goblins have 2 less intelligence than a gnome, in the mechanics of that game.Baggins 06:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree as Goblins have shown up in more games and thier inventions are showcased more. Zarnks 06:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Shown up more" is debateable... You'd have to count the number of references made in all of warcraft from the games, the novels, rpg, etc, in order to get the total count of who gets the most references (I.E. showing up more in sources). Gnomes may not have physically shown up in Warcraft III for example but they are referenced in the game. In anycase I'm sure someone with a certain mod could find out what the stat scores for goblins are in World of Warcraft, per level, based on how much mana a caster goblin has.

In anycase the RPG is more realistic in that races aren't exactly smarter or less smart from each other, a character's stats are actuall randomized through dice, so someone could roll a smart goblin or roll a goblin with less intelligence, a roll of 1 would be a stupid goblin, a roll of 20 would be the smartest goblin.

The only difference is that both blood elves and gnomes share a +2 intelligence modifier (similar to WoW's Expansive Mind in a way) that goblins do not have it, so if you put a goblin with a roll of 20 next to a gnome that rolled 20, the gnome would have intelligence of 22, where as if a goblin rolled intelligence of 1, and so did the gnome, the gnome would have an intelligence of 3. Something tells me though in WoW if goblins ever became playable, Blizzard probably wouldn't give them Expansive Mind, and they'd get some other kind of racial to make them different. But blizzard loves them too much as neutral characters, and has said in interviews over and over they'd never make them playable.Baggins 06:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Metzen himself considers them Horde. Just because many are part of the steamwheedle cartel doesn't mean every single one is.

"Horde Races" by Chris Metzen (RPG). Note the goblin.

Actualy, Metzen now says they are Independent. You do know that artwork predates World of Warcraft right? In the rpg, in the same book which he was involved in writing he says they are Independent as well. The majority of the race lives in Undermine which is an Independent city. Metzen has said in interviews, and videos throughout the years that he would not make them playable in WoW because most of the race is Independent race. Your lack of knowledge of lore is attrocious sorry to say... :|...Baggins 07:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Lack of Lore Knowledege! Your the one whose being stubborn Goblins are found in the service of the Horde in Ashenvale,Camp Mojache,Orgimmar,and gave orcs exclusive priveleges to the Zepplins. Your lack of lore knowledge on goblins is appalling if you forgot about the vast number goblins in the New Horde. At the least they are more likely then high elves. Zarnks 07:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

arbritrary break1

And? Again you show your ignorance. When the game first game out those goblins were neutral to everyone including Alliance. A few of them would even explain that they were hired by the Horde, or doing business in horde lands, not allied to the Horde. Blizzard only changed them to flag alliance in a later patch because Alliance were griefing Horde on the Zeppelins, and hiding inside goblin buildings in the cities were they couldn't be seen by other enemies. But storywise they are not considered "true" allies. And they give (or used to at least) steamwheedle rep.

As a side note even if they were considered "Horde" Allied at this point, they are an incredibly small minority to the majority of the race which stand by their neutrality to both races. All goblin towns currently in WoW are neutral cities. But let me quote what Blizzard has to say about them;

"Goblins fought with the Horde in the Second War, but broke off when they realized that it’s more profitable to work both sides. However, many goblins remember the fun of the Horde and are willing to lower mercenary prices to Thrall and his people. Goblins offer almost exclusive transport services for the Horde, whether in their steamboats or zeppelins. You’re more likely to find a team of goblin sappers, who take great pleasure in the chaos the Horde creates, meshed into Horde forces than those of the Alliance. Perhaps with enough persuasion, the goblins could be convinced to rejoin the Horde for the first time since the Second War (although that could be just as harmful as helpful, knowing the goblins)".Template:Cite

I.E. a reference to the fact that they are mercenaries rather than actually true allies to the horde. Something you would have known if you payed attention to WoW from the beginning when it was first released.Baggins 07:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

There were Horde goblins before the zepplin goblins in World of Warcraft. Perhaps you missed the many Horde pvped goblins in Orgimmar,the goblins working for Horde in Ashenvale,the numerous Horde pvped goblin quest givers. You'd have to have never played Horde to miss those goblins. There are more Horde pvped goblins then there are Revantusk and ogres. Zarnks 07:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I play Horde and Alliance, and you seem to miss the fact as I explained earlier those Goblins used to be friendly to both Horde and Alliance, and as an Alliance you could talk to them, a few would explain that they were just "hired by the Horde". Alliance could pick up the quests too. It gave steemwheedle rep!!!

They were only flagged PVP later due to Alliance griefers antagonizing lowbies on the Zeppelins and hiding in Goblin rooms in Orgrimmar. Sorry to say but you obviously haven't been playing WoW for very long if you didn't know that information!!!! Its the fact that that lore wise they weren't intended to be PVP flagged that they are said to only be "mercenaries" hired by the Horde, rather than allies.Baggins 07:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Your being ignorant again. The goblins in Mojache,Ashenvale and many in Orgimmar have always been Horde pvped. Your thinking of the Zepplin guards and pilots. They were neutral at one point. The other Horde pvped goblins have always been that way. Zarnks 07:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I'm speaking of the ones in Orgrimmar, Mohache and Ashevale that gave quests. They used to be "friendly" as well, and I could pick up the quests with my Alliance character. They were flagged PVP later. I have many friends who picked up the transporter quest so they could use the Gnomeregan transporter.Baggins 07:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Methinks the conversation has gone rather off topic. The point is, goblins in general (and by far the majority) are not Horde allied. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 07:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)