Talk:Village pump/Archive20

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Kirkburn's wild weekend Edit

Welcome to Kirkburn's weekly roundup, where he recounts how he's been breaking the wiki this week:

Article management boxes Edit

Let me start off with article management boxes. What are these, you may be asking? Who the hell are you, you may be shouting? If you are, that was silly, be quiet.

Anyway, article management boxes are things like {{wikify}}, {{Stub/Lore}}. In stages, I have been merging them to a single overall design, and have just added guidelines for their usage to WoWWiki:Manual of Style#Article message boxes. It's a slight departure from our norm, but should really help with making the site look more professional and more easily maintained. Wikipedia just went over to this style (with a lot of support), and the design and colours are based on such. If any of them look absolutely awful on wowwiki.css, let me know and I'll see if I can improve it.

The outline is - the border represents the type of template (red = major issues, yellow = mild issue, etc), and the boxes are stacked at the top of an article, before all content (on better browsers the borders collapse to help the stack design). This should affect relatively few articles, and it does not preclude them being used in article sections if it makes much more sense. Kirkburn talk contr 17:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Quick update on this: all Category:Article management tags are now converted, along with Category:Stubs and most of Category:Democracy templates (reason why "most of" below). Kirkburn talk contr 03:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Another note: it appears stubs can collide with tooltips - no matter, the solution is to put them at the very top of the page (which is more sensible anyway). Kirkburn talk contr 16:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm probably going to make an article in the WoWWiki: name space explaining the cool new generic box templates, but not right away. We should leave important info just floating around in the Village pump. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:50 AM PDT 5 Oct 2007
Sarcasm detected, and redirected to Template:Ambox and WW:MOS. Kirkburn talk contr 18:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hover tooltips! Edit

This has been enabled for all users of the wiki. It's not absolutely perfect, but it works! pcj is the codemaster :)

An example: [Frame of Atiesh]

Please report any problems you find! It was intended to have an on/off switch, but for some reason it breaks other personal js. Kirkburn talk contr 21:22, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You can now disable the tooltips by adding var tooltipsOn = false; to Special:Mypage/wowwiki.js. --Pcj (TC) 20:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Ooooohhhhh, shiny *pokes the hovering tag* Good job :) -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 11:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
By the way, if you don't see a tooltip from some {{loot}} links, it may be that the tooltip is not entered for that item article. We may want a tag for missing tooltips? --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:28 PM PDT 1 Oct 2007
I'll consider it, if anybody has any ideas on what it should display, let me know. --Pcj (TC) 20:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've implemented it. It should now show an error message if someone does something like [Main Page] or links to a blank page. --Pcj (TC) 15:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Quick work, but could you perhaps add to the message something like: "This item either has no tooltip or was not intended to have one." --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:14 AM PDT 2 Oct 2007
Done. --Pcj (TC) 18:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
If I added some stuff to my wowwiki.js page to get the floating tooltips before, do I need to remove it now since they're standard? -ClydeJr - talk - contrib 20:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, sure. --Pcj (TC) 20:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm probably going to make an article in the WoWWiki: name space explaining the cool new hover tooltips, but not right away. We should leave important info just floating around in the Village pump. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:52 AM PDT 5 Oct 2007
Not sure how one can "document" this, as it was intended to have an on/off option in the personal links - however, this broke other CSS, so it was left off. Another (temporary) solution was found, and it was listed here. Where would be a good place to document it? Kirkburn talk contr 18:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I started Help:Loot and Tooltip to hopefully give some guidance. I would appreciate any corrections and additions. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:39 PM PDT 10 Oct 2007
That's not in the WoWWiki: namespace, silly. --Pcj (TC) 20:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Tooltips don't work for disambig links. Look at the prize ticket links on Brewfest TeжubԎ Ҩ Ѡ 03:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Known issue/working as intended; it is impossible to retrieve the actual item name if the pluralization or something else which makes it different from the item name is between the brackets. Only solution would be to discourage use of altered item names in {{Loot}}. --Pcj (TC) 03:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Can't just grab the page name? TeжubԎ Ҩ Ѡ 04:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
From what? --Pcj (TC) 04:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Never mind, it should be working now. --Pcj (TC) 05:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Yea, from that :) TeжubԎ Ҩ Ѡ 05:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Reporting problem: I have and issue with this with Frostwolf Howler. Observe the hover tooltip on the Mount page: it gives the Stormpike Battle Charger's instead. I copied the item template but I change everyhting. Any idea why this happens? By the way, thanks for the tool. - Nerub29 22:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that the item for Frostwolf Howler should be on Horn of the Frostwolf Howler but it isn't. --Pcj (TC) 22:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Anyone know why the [Ashes of Al'ar] tooltip isn't working? --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 7:42 PM PDT 8 Oct 2007
I have a feeling it has something to do with the apostrophes - there have been similar problems for other apostophied items. Kirkburn  talk  contr 11:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Not so sure, [Deathcharger's Reins] works... but [Fiery Warhorse's Reins] does not...--Pcj (TC) 17:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Fixed the problem, someone bungled the include in the spell. --Pcj (TC) 18:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
In Safari 3 (and possibly some other browsers), leaving the mouse over the link results in two tooltips: the HTML one with the item details, and one generated by the browser/OS with the link's TITLE attribute ("Frame of Atiesh is a legendary quality item."). Kinda redundant, kinda ugly. Perhaps if tooltips are enabled, the script should nil out the link title? Gazmik Fizzwidget T · C · W 23:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Damn hippies! TeжubԎ Ҩ Ѡ 01:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I've shortened it as far as I can, but the script retrieves the item name from the title. --Pcj (TC) 20:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've found a workable solution. Let me know if it works for you. --Pcj (TC) 20:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Please post future bug reports at Help talk:Loot and Tooltip. Thanks. --Pcj (TC) 13:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I've added loot comparison to the hover tooltips...but it's slightly advanced functionality so you'll need to enable it/set some of it up yourself.
What you need to do is go to your wowwiki.js and add the following lines:
var ttCompare = true;
var ttSlot = new Array();
/* from [[InventorySlotId]]
0 = ammo, 1 = head, 2 = neck, 3 = shoulder, 4 = shirt, 5 = chest, 6 = belt, 7 = legs, 8 = feet, 9 = wrist, 10 = gloves,
11 = finger 1, 12 = finger 2, 13 = trinket 1, 14 = trinket 2, 15 = back, 16 = main hand, 17 = off hand, 18 = ranged, 19 = tabard
ttSlot[0] = "";
ttSlot[1] = "";
ttSlot[2] = "";
ttSlot[3] = "";
ttSlot[4] = "";
ttSlot[5] = "";
ttSlot[6] = "";
ttSlot[7] = "";
ttSlot[8] = "";
ttSlot[9] = "";
ttSlot[10] = "";
ttSlot[11] = "";
ttSlot[12] = "";
ttSlot[13] = "";
ttSlot[14] = "";
ttSlot[15] = "";
ttSlot[16] = "";
ttSlot[17] = "";
ttSlot[18] = "";
ttSlot[19] = "";
Then you need to put the name of the items in the appropriate fields. For example: ttSlot[19] = "Guild Tabard";. If you don't have an item in that slot, just leave it blank. You can see a more extended example at the top of my wowwiki.js.
Once you're all set up, go to hover over a {{loot}} link as before, and to see the item you have saved, hold down CTRL. Note that it only shows the first of each trinket or ring for now. --Pcj (TC) 19:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In IE (if you already want to reply now, don't do it) the tooltips' positions are (mostly, weird enough) ignoring how far the page is scrolled. I don't recall the exact the exact variables to check right now, but I know that the IE engine supports this just as well as Gecko. IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 23:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This problem should be fixed now. --Pcj (TC) 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

One major problem with the tooltips occur on this page. I've seen Errors, tooltips for one item, or, in the case of the primal mooncloth set, the actual primal mooncloth. In some cases, the first two options can be interchanged on the same item when hovered over again and again. Maybe it'd be best to eliminate tooltips for that page only. --slxception (me/speak) 08:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Sets don't use tooltips. I've removed the loot links from that page. --Pcj (TC) 21:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Vote policy vote Edit

WoWWiki:Voting policy ... er, I do wonder why we have it. Wikis aren't about voting, they're about consensus. Such votes aren't used at all outside of deletion and policies (which already have good templates set up), and I do think that whole section of the wiki could go.

Also, there's no way I'm fixing those templates as well. Kirkburn talk contr 02:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I have now started a deletion vote on WoWWiki talk:Voting policy#Deletion vote. Y'know, every time I say/hear/type the word "vote", it sends a chill down my spine. Ugh.

Now go vote! Kirkburn talk contr 02:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not attached to these policies, but I'm not sure that consensus is really what happens in wikis. Wikis have the illusion of consensus which satisfies most people. However, voting at least makes people see that not all issues are really solved by trying to reach a consensus and that some people stand on one side or another of an issue. Wikipedia pretends to have consensus, but many decisions are enacted more by advised dictatorship. Various users put down their thoughts in a form very similar to a vote and an admin pretends to see a consensus and acts arbitrarily. Thats just my observation. Voting seems to be less wishy-washy. It seems hard to pin down consensus as anything but a vague notion.
All that said, I don't live and die by wiki policy. I will however state my opinion and hope it is backed by sufficient evidence to make it worth considering. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:52 PM PDT 1 Oct 2007
Note that I'm not advocating removing the deletion and policy votes, but just the unused "general vote" stuff. I'm not opposed to votes like we took for the logo, but apart from that it's unused and isn't generally a good solution to most problems. An alternative is that rather than remove everything, to simplify the WW:VOTE page, and make it more informational. Kirkburn talk contr 20:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Voting on article content is bad, which seems to be the issue. I can't put up a vote to write that Toronto is the capital of Japan and get 6 chuckleheads to vote yes, while the only other 5 who care vote no and lose. Consensus is when you do a survey of individual opinions and use common sense when interpreting the results. "Voting" implies you count yesses and nos and pick a "winner." Consensus breaks down to mindless voting when no one is willing to apply the common sense part. --Piu (?!) 01:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Methinks this should continue on WoWWiki talk:Voting policy#Deletion vote :) Kirkburn talk contr 02:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone care to comment? Edit

I am going to replace Dual box with three pages. [Multiboxing] and Multiboxing Hardware Requirements and Multiboxing Software Requirements

The second and third pages are not complete but the article is presented much better than before. I will most likely add even more related pages and want to keep them all under the guise of Multiboxing xxxxxxxx where the xxxxxxxxxx is the related subject.

I want to reverse the forwarding being done currently, where Multiboxing forwards to Dual box. If someone else wants to put the changes into place feel free to do so.

Please don't bother commenting on whether or not its legal within the game, it is, been confirmed on their boards and if your too lazy to go look I don't have time for you. SharlinTalk / Did 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it was merged from something like that... Split it again if you want...--SWM2448 01:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Addition to Kalimdor pop culture references Edit

The centaur "Khan Jehn" in Desolace is a reference to the gaming convention Gen Con, created by TSR co-founder Gary Gygax.

-- Drh3010 16:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

While I'm not objecting, I am curious. How do you know this? I've seen a lot of definitive 'this is what this is' things when they don't seem like that to me... with all the spoonerism type names, tho, this looks fairly plausible. --Azaram 01:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I'm guessing.

Khan Dez'hepah = Decepticons, the enemies of the Autobots.

Khan Shaka = Chaka Khan, singer.

Khan Hratha = Wrath of Khan, the second Star Trek movie.

Drh3010 20:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

With those, which I hadn't even considered, you're probably right. Good catch, those have been in the game for a long time... --Azaram 00:59, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki Projects Edit

I've seen the idea tossed around a bit on the VP and on IRC about starting up a formal Projects area on WoWWiki. "Projects" in a nutshell are a way for editors to gather and coordinate their efforts to improve a specific section of the wiki. The main benefits are improved consistency and quality across articles of a certain subject, bringing like-minded people together in a central place, and one I think is the best is it gives new users a place to jump in and edit if they find a project that fits their interests.

This is somewhat based on Wikipedia's WikiProjects[1]. Of course, Wikipedia projects are much larger due to the user base and the sheer extent of that site. On WoWWiki, our scope is much smaller, but we still all have our own areas of expertise and interest. Our projects don't need the heavy bureaucracy because we just aren't that big.

Some users have already started projects, like DuTempete's warlock project, but you wouldn't know about it unless you saw it when she first posted it or found it by chance or word of mouth. If anything, a formal projects policy will bring attention to all existing projects to their benefit.

The general idea:

  • WoWWiki:Projects - this page will be the new Projects policy, describing how to start one, how to find existing ones, and some basic ground rules to be decided.
  • For most projects, a separate page in the WoWWiki: namespace for editors to organize tasks and discuss project-wide issues.

I'll write up a formal policy at that red link in a bit with some elaboration, but I wanted to post this all here for general consumption. --Piu (?!) 03:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Rough draft is now written at WoWWiki:Projects. It's very rough, feel free to contribute and discuss. --Piu (?!) 04:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the work. I added a note about maintaining project member lists on the discussion page. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:31 PM PDT 4 Oct 2007

I need help! Edit

I have a World of Warcraft character and I want to put up a page about him.How do I do it?

-- WoWFreak 03:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki:Player character page policy start there. --BlameMe Mucke talkTo 04:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Generally you could start with a link from your user page like [[User:WoWFreak/<character_name>]] or [[Server:<server_character_lives_on>/<character_name>]] and use the Player character pages info to fill it in. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:53 PM PDT 4 Oct 2007

Vol'jin Edit

I know that there is more about Vol'jin to be said than is on his page, couldn't one of our fearless leaders like Baggins (don't mean to pick on you do, but I know you have the RPG books) please add some more to his page. I haven't read the RPG books in a while but there has to be more on Vol'jin than we currently have on there. Lckyluke372 07:34, 5 October 2007

What specific sort of additions would you like to see on the Vol'jin article? Your request is vague in the extreme. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:22 AM PDT 5 Oct 2007

Anything, the only things on there are basic history, quotes and his one quest he ends, surely something else can be said about him? Lckyluke372|Lckyluke372

I think it's worth mentioning he taps a keg at 06:00 and 18:00 hours (6 AM and PM) for Brewfest every day. Not sure what this entales, frankly, considering I've never attended a tapping...but I'll find out in a couple hours! ~ Doc Lithius [U|T|C] 09:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so... I attended a tapping. Apparently, he just taps a keg and says some inspirational words. That's about it. Still, not bad. ~ Doc Lithius [U|T|C] 20:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Everybody in the area gets a buff that gives 10% more experience for some time (2 hours, I think, but I don't remember for sure) --Azaram 01:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added enough that his article isn't a complete embarassment on how he wasn't present during he war against the humans and the burning legion and his role in Brewfest and all that. Lckyluke372 01:32, October 15, 2007


I uploaded a picture and it worked, except it just made a link, theres no picture. I don't know how to fix that. The picture is Image:Gnomeincage.jpg Mr.X8 18:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you check the spelling on the filename of the image you loaded vs. what you posted here? --BlameMe Mucke talkTo 21:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I deleted it. Make sure when you upload files, you don't fiddle with the file extension. Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, I named the pictures different things. And what's a file extension? Mr.X8 19:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ugghhh, I tried again to upload something and I didn't change the name, and it didn't work again. The image is File:Nuttin.jpg

We might as well delete it. >:( Mr.X8 23:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Now I tried another one, and it still didn't work Mr.X8 22:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Server and Guild namespaces Edit

They've gone live, and everything should have already been transferred across. Apparently it was much easier than I expected! TOR_CNR ftw Smiley This means all server and guild pages are now out of the main namespace and are individually searchable. (The most noticeable change is that the talk page links have changed). Kirkburn  talk  contr 17:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In other news WoWWiki:Known vandals has become WoWWiki:Violations - somewhat less accusatory, and a better representation of what we do with the page. Kirkburn  talk  contr 17:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I took the liberty of adjusting {{serverdis}} to have including disambig pages point at the new namespace for the regional servers. IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 09:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Need more Travel Guides! Edit

Since the WoWWiki:Projects thing isn't quite up to speed, I'd like to make a request to folks to add to the Travel Guides. We need more Horde travel guides especially. It would also be nice to see travel guides to the new Bc icon capital cities of Exodar and Silvermoon and from them to the other capitals. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:36 AM PDT 9 Oct 2007

WoWWiki Projects Update Edit

I put some more polish on the policy proposal at WoWWiki:Projects. Please take a final look and see if there's anything I missed, isn't clear, or if any details need to be addressed. Then it goes up for vote! --Piu (?!) 03:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


WoWWiki:Projects is now up for vote. Please visit the talk page and vote! --Piu (?!) 04:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Popup's Edit

I am looking at the loot table from Karazhan and the popup window is not always on the screen. Is this an adjustment on your side or mine? Once i move down the loot list my selection has to be right on the bottom of the page so ican see the popup window for the stats. tx u

wshelor --Wshelor 18:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This is something that will need to be fixed with the tooltip code. --GRYPHONtc 18:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It should be fixed now. --Pcj (TC) 21:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Help with Article Edit

I really need help. When i was searching on my own "Great Sea Expansion Idea" page there came no results... :( -- RobWar 12:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

User:RobWar/Great Sea Expansion Idea: The Twilight Storms should be it, or User:RobWar/The Twilight Storms. Special:Contributions/RobWar shows the pages you have edited :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 12:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikia Gaming chat Edit

On Sunday October 14th there is going to be an IRC chat for gaming wikis at the #wikia-gaming channel. Contributors, admins, and founders of all gaming-related wiki on Wikia are invited to discuss common issues that we might have, sharing our experiences, and helping each other out. The time of the chat will be:

California New York London
1pm 4pm 9pm

Please help to spread the word, and hope to see you there! Kirkburn  talk  contr 23:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't seem to get a template to work... Edit

I'm trying to make a template for all my RP Characters, and I can't seem to get it to work. The page now is, so can anyone tell me what exactly I'm going wrong with the template? The Templates page doesn't seem to help...

-- Shockna - Casual and Hardcore come together 00:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

You were missing }} near the end.   Zurr  TC 00:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

(top) = ?? Edit

What does it mean when (top) appears next to my listed edit in my contrubtuions page? Have searched for an answer but i found the whole "pump" system rather confusing.

-- Damoloces 19:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It means yours was the latest edit. --Pcj (TC) 19:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Items with Bonus Armor Edit

Hello, I'm new to this WoWWiki and I've started off with updating some item pages to reflect the new 2.3.0 changes coming. My question is this: is there a way to modify the Armor value text's color to green to reflect that an item has Bonus Armor (Armor value displayed as green in-game)?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance! -- Warscythe 02:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is. Provide the bonusarmor= parameter (as well as armor=) to the tooltip template. The parameter should contain the amount of extra armor the item has compared to normal items of that quality, armor type, slot and item level. --Starlightblunder 15:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Creators of WoWWikki Edit

I would like contact the creator(s) of Wowwiki about a project I have. Can anyone tell me how to contact them? (Email me if you like) -- Gol 07:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki:About#Ownership and administration. Kirkburn  talk  contr 13:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks -- Gol

Picture bugging me Edit

I think the editor acted in good faith by adding the Image:HunterBG.jpg to the Hunter builds. It looks more self-glorifying to me than actually informative. Looking through the other edits I can't really think the guy qualifies as a vandal. Whether he does or not, the picture bugs me mightily but I'd rather take advice than remove it on my own accord. I looked through some of the policies but can't find anything that would help me take the right decision. -- Malusz 16:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to say go with your instinct. There are probably better ways to show what he's trying to show. More than anything, I'm bugged by the text he added, sporting his and his teammate's name. --Sky (t · c · w) 22:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Unless there is some better evidence that naming specific people and the particluar image adds information to the article, just remove them with a comment like "removed NPOV text and unnecessary image". That's what I would do if I felt more strongly about it. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:18 PM PDT 17 Oct 2007

Upgrade time Edit

Hi All,

Wikia is preparing for a MediaWiki upgrade, which will include upgrading WoWWiki to MediaWiki 1.11. We will also be combining some of the code and databases used for WoWWiki with those used for other wikis on Wikia. The biggest of these changes will be us combining the user databases. Here's how this works:

  1. If there are two accounts with the same name on Wikia and WoWWiki, then we compare email addresses. If they match, we set that name as one account, and all remains the same for you.
  2. If there are two accounts and the email addresses don't match, then we set the WoWWiki account to "WoWWiki-name". We can then look at that individually with you, and figure out how to resolve the name conflict.
  3. If you have a unique account on WoWWiki, with no matching Wikia name, then we automatically make that name yours on Wikia. It doesn't matter whether you use the account elsewhere or not, you will be "you" on the whole of Wikia.

This change will make it a lot easier to support this wiki, and will give you access to some new features we've been working on. You will have the option of using the new Wikia skin, complete with widgets (recent changes in the sidebar is a nice one...). It also means we will be able to install some of the extensions you have been asking for, including Youtube videos, CharInsert, Inputbox and Editcount.

If you have accounts of the same name on WoWWiki and on Wikia, please make sure your email address is the same on both accounts. To do this, go to your preferences page, make sure the "email" field is correct, and authenticate your email by clicking the link in the email sent to you.

If you have accounts of different names on WoWWiki and Wikia, and you would like them merged, please say so now! It will be easier to sort this out before the database changes. Again, please ensure that the email addresses in both accounts match. We can rename the WoWWiki account straight away, it may be more difficult to merge by renaming the Wikia account.

If you have any questions, or if you need help with sorting out accounts, please let me know. I'm not a techy type, but I usually know where to find one when needed ;) Thanks all -- sannse@Wikia (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I will probably make the above message a separate article and link to it from the Main page and here. This could be disruptive for some users who don't look in the Village pump, but may look at the Main page. A more specific ET for when this upgrade would happen would be helpful also. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:22 PM PDT 17 Oct 2007
I copied the message above from Sannse to WoWWiki:Upgrade Late 2007 and also put a link to it on the Main Page. I will probably also link to it from the WoWWiki news section of the Main page, just to be thorough. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:35 PM PDT 17 Oct 2007
Great idea :) Perhaps something on MediaWiki:Sitenotice too at some point? Kirkburn  talk  contr 12:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
About time, i had registered my name on wikia to make sure nobody stole it :P  - CJ talk / cont  14:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

As soon as I have more accurate timescales I'll let you know. At the moment, I have been told it will happen over the next two weeks... but doubt it very much ;) other things are almost certain to come up and have to be dealt with first! But as soon as I get more definite timings I'll post here or on the new page (or both) -- sannse@Wikia (talk) 18:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

A message on MediaWiki:Sitenotice should probably wait until we have a more definitive timetable. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:16 PM PDT 18 Oct 2007
Sounds good to me :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

About Gems Edit

OK, maybe I missed the discussion - but look at Agility gems or Intellect gems - there's Category:Agility / Category:Intellect on it, quite useless imho. - OK if I change those? And then.. why no Category:Red gem or Category:Red socket?

--  Armagon (talk con 13:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I nuked the Category:Agility and Category:Intellect from those articles. In the future you can be bold and nuke any categories that show up as red (category article not created). If someone was willing to put the effort into adding stuff to a new category, but not filling out the article for the category, then they didn't care enough. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:22 PM PDT 19 Oct 2007
yes, I know - would've done it after I sorted out all of them :) And the more important question would've been the second one. I'll think about it and remove the other useless categories for the moment. Thanks, though :) -- Armagon (talk con 21:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the Category:Agility and Category:Intellect also didn't follow WoWWiki:Category policy, since they were too vague and should have been pluralized, like Category:Agility Bonus Gems and Category:Intellect Bonus Gems. Following the naming policies can be a hassle, but they generally are intuitive. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 3:16 PM PDT 19 Oct 2007
There is a very good article called Gems by color that describes what jewels are available for various color sockets. We probably do need categories like Category:Red socket items, Category:Blue socket items, Category:Yellow socket items, and Category:Meta socket items. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:05 AM PDT 22 Oct 2007

I'm doing a personal project with the gem tables and I'd like input about style. My end goal is to create an easy to read table that can be sorted like List of Paladins. It should seek to minimize the amount of duplicate data as much as possible. Best result would be if data only appears once for a multitude of pages. Likely using {{Transclude}} charts to sort it. I've set up WoWWiki:Sandbox/14 as a launching point for discussion including examples. Please check it out.--Brunpal 04:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of pages? Edit

How does one request for pages to be deleted?

BC healing equipment (cloth)/Neck Summary and BC healing equipment (cloth)/Back Summary need to be deleted as they have been replaced by BC healing equipment/Neck Summary and BC healing equipment/Back Summary respectively. Timb0h 14:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If it is an unquestionable delete, add {{speedydelete}}. Articles have been deleted. --GRYPHONtc 16:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Cat Druid's and Agility Edit

I noticed on different druid articles they mention cat druids as either getting 1 AP for every point of agility, or 2 points while strength is reduced to 1. I'm pretty sure that the former is correct, but wanted confirmation so that the erroneous document can be rectified.


-- Lethal-Panda 16:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to use the {{fact}} template where you see information that you think is not proven by any evidence or citations. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:34 PM PDT 19 Oct 2007
It is 1 Agi = 1 AP in cat form only, and 1 Str = 2 AP for all forms. IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 00:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Where did you get this info? --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 8:31 PM PDT 21 Oct 2007
I wasn't able to find anything official about it, but pretty much every site quotes the same thing. I was able to confirm it the other day; my normal attack power in cat form is 2006, I used a scroll of agility V (Increase agility 20) and it went to 2026. When the scroll wore out, back to 2006. --Azaram 05:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Fan Fic Gallery? Edit

I know you guys allow us to have our own fan fiction (art, stories, characters, etc) under our name, but would it be possible to have a gallery of Fan Fiction, like how you have the Featured Media and Nomination of Topcis (Nominated Medivh) but could you create something similar to that for Fan Fictional stuff where we can post our stories for people to read and (i doubt it) nominate in another section.
Melean 23:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this belongs to WoWWiki anywhere outside the User pages. If you want a Fanfic community page, why not create one on an external page? Or better, check if there are existing ones, I don't think the "market" for fanfic is that scarce. IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 00:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I would agree, they probably don't belong outside user pages. I don't see any reason why you couldn't link to your wowwiki user page from an outside website, though. --Jiyambi t || c 02:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by a gallery, but there is a Category:Fan fiction.
If you would like something like a featured fan fiction section on the Main Page, I suggest you do the following:
  1. Make an example Main Page with a featured fan fiction area on it as a subpage of your user area, like User:Melean/Main Page.
  2. Put a vote according to WoWWiki:Voting policy on the WoWWiki talk:Main Page Dev with a link to your example Main Page.
  3. Create an example nomination page (User talk:Melean/Main Page/FFF) for people to start nominating regardless of whether a featured fan fiction area gets added to the Main Page.
--Fandyllic (talk · contr) 8:30 PM PDT 21 Oct 2007


Why the WoW logo from the cinematic have a "island" in the place of the maelstrom?--FireMaster 12:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe in the sunken land of the Naga is below the Maelstrom, but I'm just guessing. Perhaps the cinematic shows an island to remind people there is/was something there. --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 3:56 PM PDT 20 Oct 2007

Kasgal vs GaskalEdit

The title of the Kasgal article needs to be changed, as the orc's name was Gaskal, not Kasgal.--Austin P 14:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You can  move  articles. :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 18:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah thanks. I didn't know if changing article names was within my power.--Austin P 22:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

2.3 item changes Edit

What's the official word on already changing item pages to reflect their new stats in 2.3? I noticed edits like this one, and looking at the user's contribs, he maybe did this for all the changed items. As 2.3 probably won't go live this month or even the next one, is it good to have the pages changed already? IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 18:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest simply tagging items that are updated in 2.3 with {{:User:Foxbot/Update|patch=2.3|tiponly=true|nostub=true}} and foxbot can take care of them once 2.3 goes live. -- Starlightblunder 23:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Not sure I understand what is meant? I reviewed the loot dropping of bosses in Deadmines, and all their loot has been updated for the upcoming 2.3 changes! Need some betetr guidance please. --Dracomage 20:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say yes to updating them - 2.3 isn't far off - so long as it is noted. If you're going for loot now, getting somethng slightly worse than shown isn't going to make much difference - it's still cool (and it will get upgraded when 2.3 hits). Kirkburn  talk  contr 18:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Features overhaul Edit

Featured articles (and related pages) have been given a bit of an overhaul - please visit WoWWiki talk:Featured article to see what's happened! Kirkburn  talk  contr 00:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:Racebox Edit

I think it'd be a good idea to expand a bit the racebox idea. See the new version of the template and what it looks like.--K ) (talk) 20:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

All I see that you added is the icons. Don't see much use for it there, really. --Pcj (TC) 21:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
That's my point: it doesn't add much, but helps a lot as a shortcut to people who want to find those icons easily.--K ) (talk) 21:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I edited it so the icons wouldn't be so far apart, but I really don't think this template is the spot for it. Perhaps one page with all the icons would be better. --Pcj (TC) 21:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Sortable tables Edit

We can sort tables! I had completely forgotten we have this functionality now :P

To activate it, you set a table class as class="sortable" ... to combine that with darktable it becomes class="darktable sortable".

More details can be found on wikipedia:Help:Sorting. Example of use on List of Paladins. Kirkburn  talk  contr 15:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you add a note about this to Help:Table? This article probably needs to have some specific info about class="darktable" also. I was thinking we should also add some background color classes for darktable similar to what are used for the Main Page (like "mainpagetabledarkgreen", "mainpagetablegreen", etc. in MediaWiki:Wowwiki.css). --Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:01 PM PDT 25 Oct 2007
Will see what I can do. Added some notes on galleries and "sortable" to the Manual of Style for now. Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorting a table on List of Paladins it seems to have a problem with the background row colors. They start as a zebra pattern, but after a sort multiple black and multiple off-black rows end up next to each other instead of a nice zebra look. Go to that page and sort a column and look at background color of the rows to see what I mean.--Brunpal 03:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that can be fixed, which means that if we want to be able to sort items, then we're going have to not use the "alt" class. Not a problem in most places, as the sorting isn't going to be used many places either. --Sky (t · c · w) 03:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, it would be theoretically possible to fix it, just not very practical. Not that big of a problem anyway. --Pcj (TC) 03:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Easily fixable when the next IE is released and is widespread. For now, it looks weird when someone tries sorting it, but most of the time that's unlikely. In any case, it's added functionality :P Kirkburn  talk  contr 04:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Arena Addon Edit

Moved this topic to Warcraft pump, since it really belongs there. --Fandyllic (talk · contr)

Time StampEdit

I recently made my own signature ( IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs) and someone told me I need to add a time stamp. How can I add one? Mr.X8 19:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

WW:SIG, follow the instructions? Kirkburn  talk  contr 19:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything on a time stamp  IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

If you use the instructions shown on there to the letter, it should show a timestamp. In fact, afaik it should show a timestamp regardless, so long as you're signing with four tildes. Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Armor collection pages Edit

I've just joined to make pages for the different armor collections, since I noticed that only a few of them had pages made. I've done the cloth sets so far, and I used WoW Model Viewer to make images of the sets to show what they look like. Is it okay for me to put these images up? -- Otsana 21:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

In game images are preferred, but so long as the model viewer screenshots are good quality and try to follow WW:IMAGE, then no problem with them being used in place. :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 15:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I should note that the correct names of the pages would be "'Item Set Name' collection". Other than that, nice work. --Sky (t · c · w) 22:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Telo's Loot Link Edit

Moved this topic to Warcraft pump, since it really belongs there. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:34 AM PDT 30 Oct 2007

how to get attention to a article ? Edit

Moved this topic from Warcraft pump, since it really belongs here. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:48 AM PDT 30 Oct 2007

i couldn't find a list of nifty things to know while questing on the wiki or any other place, so i made one with some basic need to know tips in Notable Horde areas and quests.. so far i only did the horde version since i don't have a allied character. i would like it once to be added to the newby guide section once, but it needs a lot more input before i feel its ok to include in such a place. and also a allied list would be nice. I did search a while but i could not find a way to mark the article that it requires more input (at least not in Category:Article_Management_Tags nor in WoWWiki:Templates ..maybe i just overlooked it ). This might be the wrong place for it but basically i'm asking for some contributions to that page and if someone would like to make Notable Allied areas and quests -- CoZ 12:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Your Notable Horde areas and quests article is a good start. Mentioning it here in the Village pump is a good way to get it noticed. I will stub out Notable Alliance areas and quests (better to use "Alliance" rather than "Allied") using your original article as a model. Hopefully helpful people will try to fill it in. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 11:53 AM PDT 30 Oct 2007
Cheers. pitty the Notable Alliance areas and quests is still empty. the horde version now has a couple of nice entries, but unfortunatelly all made by me. i'd like to see some extra posts by other contributors (especially in the 50 and up parts since my character is nearing 50 .. hehe), ill try to add the tenaris pirates area soon. that got me a whopping 6 quests done in one evening with a few friends all in the same area :)

45,000 articles Edit

We hit 45,000 articles a few hours ago Smiley Congratulations all round! See also Kirkburn  talk  contr 19:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Zone Map Notes Edit

I thought I saw a template like this on the pump some time ago, but I couldn't find it, so I made my own:

{{Zone Map|zone=Nagrand|size=500|notes=
{{Zone Map Note|71.5|40.8|Star|Hemet Nesingwary}}
{{Zone Map Note|57.2|35.3|Taxi|Horde Flight Master (Garadar)}}
{{Zone Map Note|54.2|75.1|Taxi|Alliance Flight Master (Telaar)}}

If it doesn't already exist, would this be a useful feature for the wiki? The templates involved are relatively simple (two templates, each less complex than {{tooltip}}) and uses basic CSS to position the notes (no Javascript). All it would take to get this ready for general use would be to update and standardize the zone map images on the wiki (the currently posted ones are of varying size and many are cropped, which ruins the note positioning), and I'd be happy to take care of that.

Thoughts? // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 23:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Were you thinking of {{Location}}? --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:51 PM PDT 31 Oct 2007
That's the one, all right. Though it doesn't look like it was ever finished (it looks like he ran into the same problem with cropped maps as I did and only ever got the corrections for Mulgore into the template) and doesn't support multiple notes/labels, so I may well go ahead with my own. // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 16:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Ask wiki to resize map images dynamically rather than uploading new versions of a fixed size - should save you some work. -- Starlightblunder 08:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, it isn't the size, exactly, that's the problem (though it would be nice to make sure the source images were all large enough for the wiki to resize well). The real problem is that most (if not all) of the zone map images on the wiki have been cropped to, e.g., better show off the zone area (there are a lot of zone maps with a lot of "wasted" space) or crop off the decorative edges. This is fine for viewing in wiki pages, but the coordinate system used by addons is based on percentages of the total width of the map image, so if bits of the map images are cropped off, it throws off the marker positioning. The question is whether the "proper" fix is to replace the existing images with uncropped ones (which, it could be argued, would make them look worse for their current use in wiki pages) or upload a new, clean set (and have near-duplicate images). // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 16:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I think a new clean set exclusive to the plotting system should be used. --GRYPHONtc 17:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Yup, I agree with Gryphon. Also, put the new images in a new category like, Category:Coordinate-safe maps. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:23 PM PDT 1 Nov 2007
I tend to agree, as well. I'll look at converting a clean set from the Interface files this evening. // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
But, of course, nothing's ever allowed to be that easy. (/sigh) The map data's easy to find, but it's all in pieces (logically enough, as that's how map exploration works in-game). I'll have to see if I can't find a way to script the reassembly. I don't suppose anyone knows, off the top of their head, how to determine where the map pieces are positioned on the zone background? Cartographer and MetaMap seem to accomplish the task... mebbe I'll take a look at how they do it. // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 05:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, images are posted and I've placed the templates at {{Zone Map}} and {{Zone Map Note}}. I'm also working on some (optional) Javascript which will change the title-based tooltips into nice, formatted ones and add a Wowhead-style "click to zoom" feature. If anyone has ideas for other enhancements, let me know! // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 19:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

This is beautiful and I love it. Thanks Dark Ryder! --Jiyambi t || c 20:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
You know what would be amazingly useful but probably really difficult to do/impossible? Also have the icons be links, to be specified when using the template. --Jiyambi t || c 20:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that does border on impossible with the tools built in to MediaWiki -- <imagelink> can't be templated properly and the {{imagelink}} template is a cruftier hack than suits these maps, which are pretty simple on the code side.
Instead, I'm making a supplementary script which people can use to enhance the maps, and I do hope to add some kind of linking support to it. // DarkRyder / Gossipgossipicon / Trainergossipicon // 21:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Potential concerns about WoWWiki upgrade Edit

See WoWWiki talk:Upgrade Late 2007. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:52 PM PDT 1 Nov 2007

Elven Horse pictureEdit

If no one's noticed so far, I really like to fix and add articles that have to do with the High Elves. I really like the picture of the Elven Horse, but it's WAY too big and needs to be shrunk seriously down. However, whoever found it, thank you.  IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

I added a thumb to see if that would shrink it, but now the page is completely blank.  IconSmall HighElf Male Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

Constant script errors? Edit

Is anyone else getting script errors on every page in the site? The one I got when I opened the edit page here is Line 217 Char 67 Error: Object expected Code 0 URL: And I mean every page. Only happens here... --Azaram 12:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

After reading this, I noticed the warning sign in the status bar, activated display of script errors and I get the same. Checking the source code shows the "Google Ads"/Federated Media adds below the navigation bar are the cause of this. Don't we all love crappy JS, especially generated by ads? :B ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 17:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
(scratches grass on a steaming pile of Java*) Bleah. Well, nice to know it's not IE for once... (work computer, can't put Firefox on it...) --Azaram 02:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Guild name space / broken redirect bug Edit

All pages that redirect to pages in the guild name space show up as broken redirect in Special:BrokenRedirects.   Zurr  TC 19:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Help fix them! If they are pages which are incorrectly named (which, almost all of them are), and don't have links to them anyway, tag them with an {{speedydelete}} ({{sd}}) and say that they are unneeded or some such. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The bug is due to all the Server:/Guild: pages being moved to the actual namespaces. --Pcj (TC) 02:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Editing the ones that actually are legitimately named (eg, Guild:Allied Tribal Forces (Malygos US)), with a couple additional spaces at the end (otherwise known as a null edit or somesuch) will also correct the behavior. But for the ones which have improper naming, leave a tag on them (fix any incoming links first) and be happy. There's only 1500 afflicted pages. :D --Sky (t · c · w) 03:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Drawings on User pages Edit

Sorry if this is a dumb question and all, but I've got a quick question about User pages. We are allowed to use pictures from the model viewer, so I was wondering if it would be okay if I uploaded a picture I drew for one of my characters. Is that ok? It would only be on my user page, and clearly marked. I tried asking this on the image page, but I don't think anyone noticed...-- Blayaden 02:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That should be fine. --Pcj (TC) 03:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I just don't want to cause any trouble. ^_^; I try to follow the rules whenever I can. I like it here, and I don't want to get banned or anything.--Blayaden 03:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


I need something confirmed about the race capitalization policy. Does this apply when referring to a dragonflight (IE, Red Dragonflight) or are they meant to be capitalized? Another thing I wanted to confirm is whether or not the rule applies to dreadlords.--Austin P 23:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Red Dragonflight would be a faction/nation so it is capitalized. Red dragon is a race so it is lower case. Dreadlord is a class/rank so it is capitalized. Nathrizim is a race so it is lower case.--SWM2448 23:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Dreadlord's used as an alternate name for Nathrezim. I've never seen it used as a class.--Austin P 23:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

New admin! Edit

Please give a warm welcome to Kaydeethree, our newest admin. He's done some amazing work for the upcoming 2.3 patch, getting the site up to speed with the changes incoming. He was also fun to meet at Blizzcon :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 04:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I, for one, welcome our new--oh, wait... --User:Kaydeethree/Sig 04:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Congratz KD3.   Zurr  TC 05:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
"Welcome our new..." had me thinking "...overlord." I'm not sure why. xD. Anyway, congrats! --Sky (t · c · w) 05:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Brockman, anyone? (sorry for the myspace link, couldn't find it on youtube, bleh. ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 09:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Congratz! You deserve it in my opinion too.--SWM2448 21:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki Search Bar Edit

I'm quite new to this site and, indeed, to World of Warcraft itself, and have found this site to be an invaluable resource, and I would first like to start out by thanking everyone involved for one of the most conclusive WoW resources available online.

Often have I sat playing WoW on my one monitor with this site and Wowhead open on my second monitor (if you have the cash at hand, I highly suggest investing in a second monitor if you are a serious WoW player - it makes such a difference when questing or looking up drop rates or whatever online).

My only grievance with this site, I have found, is the lack of a decent search bar. The google one, as I am sure many have noticed, does not actually do what is required, so it is necessary for one to follow the "Search WoWWiki" link and perform one's search from there. I understand the fact that the Google search bar makes the advertising money required to keep WoWWiki going, but as far as I am concerned, I would way rather donate money and have an adequate search bar on the main navigation frame.

This is just a suggestion, something I have come to wish for on the frequent visits I make to WoWWiki whilst I am in-game. -- Kasyx 16:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Using some JS you can use the MediaWiki search engine which seems to be what you want. See WoWWiki:Searching. --Pcj (TC) 16:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That does exactly what I need. This site just got that much more awesome. Thanks for the help :) -- Kasyx 17:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The upcoming new skin and site update should also deal with this problem :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Fish Links Edit

I know you are cautious about external links on item pages, particularly for WoW database sites. I noticed you've linked across to a lot of Warcraft Pets entries, and I wondered if you'd like to do the same for fish? Obviously it is a pretty specialised thing, and most items in WoW will never be covered. But that section alone gets over 70,000 page views a month - plenty use it as a reference. If you are interested, I can add a live list of links, names, IDs (or probably anything else you ask for), that can act as a source and will be updated as new catches are added from time to time. --Timski 21:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks excellent to me :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me too. Be bold! :P --Sky (talk | con | wh) 03:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Fishing! I'm embarassed I didn't think of it myself. ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 08:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
You know, I just came online looking for something like this... Great catch (*ahem*) :P -- Kasyx 15:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Great. What would you like me to do? I'm looking to set up something semi-automated. --Timski 12:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps a localized search bar for the fish finder? Perhaps even adding the aforementioned site into the Fishing Template? -- Kasyx 15:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Addition to the Elink template would seem to be the first step. I don't understand how to do that. Given the small number of entries, initially actual page edits could be manually added. --Timski 11:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Item UpdateEdit

I have noticed that someone is updating items to how they will be in 2.3. Should we update items to how they will be or shall we keep items as they are now and wait to they change befor changeing them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keilden (talk · contr).

Update them now. The patch is coming very soon. Kirkburn  talk  contr 13:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Going to bot pages marked with the foxbot update tags when 2.3 hits the armory, so you're welcome to take your pick between updating the pages yourself or merely tagging them for foxbot to take care of when patch goes life. -- Starlightblunder 21:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In light of this, am I correct in assuming that Items and general loot added in the 2.3 patch will be added to the Hover Tooltips? And, if this is the case, should we start "tooltipping" Items that are to be released in the patch? i.e. New Items mentioned in the Patch 2.3.0 changelog? -- Kasyx 08:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hover tooltips are only based upon valid use of {{tooltip}} and {{loot}}, there's no updating required for that other than the item pages themselves. --Pcj (TC) 16:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, sorry didn't know that was how it worked. Pretty cool that. So am I to assume then that we start adding the tooltip codes to the new items in preparation for their release, and thus their own page? -- Kasyx 16:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Just finished updating the heroic keys to rep required honored. --Dracomage 14:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Question on valid sourcesEdit

I've been going through the "statements needing citations" category and using Google to see if I can find certain passages. There are a few message board posts that have the information needed for a few articles, but I doubt that they count as valid sources. The first one is a post listing translations of certain phrases, which include a few that have a fact check attached to them. [2] But I don't know whether the poster is someone important or just another fan stating what information he remembers (or misremembers). The second is what I could find on Metzen's statements that the Rend and Maim seen in The Frozen Throne weren't the same orcs as Blackhand's sons [3] but all we have here is a poster claiming to have spoken to Metzen instead of Metzen himself.--Austin P 16:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

See WoWWiki:Citation. Generally, we want primary sources (someone who talked to Metzen is not). If you use the {{ref}}, {{ref book}}, {{ref rpg}}, {{ref web}} templates, you can add more specific info about the source.
The best way to cite a source is to use the <ref>reference</ref> tags (where reference is {{ref}}, {{ref book}}, {{ref rpg}}, or {{ref web}}) and put == References == or == Sources == at the bottom of the page followed by <references/> on the next line. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:05 PM PST 13 Nov 2007

Is that a recolored Gingar?--Austin P 22:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

WoWwiki version of this tool? Edit Colinstu  talk / cont 00:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems like an excellent idea to me. Especially cool for those looking to get into the 10000 club :P -- Kasyx 16:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a tool to count the number of edits a user has made, right? --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 5:35 PM PST 13 Nov 2007
Yeah, I think it also breaks out by namespace. --Piu (?!) 04:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The code is out for that app, I'd imagine it could be hacked over for wowwiki. Not sure, I don't do any coding besides the wiki kind :) Colinstu  talk / cont 21:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

looking for a new Home Edit

Moved to Warcraft pump, since this page is for WoWWiki-related subjects. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr)

How does one go about creating a new article? Edit

I would like to create a new article for a bran new World Drop which was discovered today on my server. How does one go about creating a new article? Zelyon 01:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Type what it is on a relevent page, then put double angle brackets around it.--> [[World drop]] --SWM2448 02:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much, all added. Spinesever. Not all information has been given yet, I will update it when it has been. Zelyon 02:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Just for clarity, those are 'square brackets', not angle brackets, aka greater/less than, and brokets. --Azaram 12:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Guild Vault / Guild Bank / Bank Edit

As of such, Guild Vault is a redirect of Guild Bank and there is such a redirect in the same article. Unless there is some use, I think that link should be gone. But another question: Would it be a good idea to start a List of bank locations article and include screenshots of what the guild bank box looks like? I know that the guild bank box in Darnassus is definately different from the guild bank box at the Scryer bank in Shattrath City. --slxception (me/speak) 18:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea. As it is such a new addition, a list of locations and shots of how they look would come in very useful to those not yet "down" with the new Guild Bank system, as such... -- Kasyx 22:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Good, I've started the page as a stub. As I'm going on vacation soon, I plan to finish it once I get back. But others can help as well. --slxception (me/speak) 02:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Policy Changes Edit

I strongly disagree with the way changes were made to our NPOV policy recently. Baggins' edits[4] have fundamentally altered the policy to apply only to fan interpretations. The policy before the edits was much more general, and did not even mention such interpretations. To my knowledge no one else has shared the opinion that NPOV only applies to fans, and no discussion about NPOV policy changes occurred before they were implemented. I hope I'm wrong, but it does seem like Baggins is changing policy merely to justify his own positions. --Tyrsenus t c 00:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with the changes, if only because of the way they were made. You want to change policy (in a big big way)? You better be ready to have a nice, long discussion about. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 03:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that all he meant was that information that is from fans and not directly from blizzard should be NPOV, whereas blizzard can write as much non-neutral POV stuff as they want as it is their game. The player base are the fans.   Zurr  TC 03:56, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
The change is to reflect the policy that has been used by the admin staff for a while, and discussed in the Irc. Even if the NPOV policy was left unclear, the admin policy would still be in effect, and any removed cited official information (we are not discussing paraphrases and quotes against fair use here), would be reverted back to the original post. Additionally the person who removed the information would be warned, and if they continued to do it put on the violation list. If they continued to do it after that then banning would occur. You can find examples of this happening in the past on WoWWiki:Violations, see history for Zarnks for example. Another good article where the policy is referenced is the forward to the Future race ideas.
By adding this administrative clause to the NPOV page, it lets people know right away what is not tolerated, before admins have to warn them and put them on the violation page. Perhaps now people will understand why Ragestorm, Kirkburn, myself and others have reverted people for removing information in the past when it related to this kind of information removal.Baggins 03:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Zurr, you have hit it right on the nail. Basically it means fans are not allowed to remove official Blizzard information even if it might make their favorite groups look bad. ...removing official information to make a group look good, and hide the bad is not allowed. All official information both good and bad should equally be covered, with no fan interpretations or opinions given. In the same way fans are not allowed to make up unverifiable information and include them in articles, to promote or discredit another race, organization, etc. That kind of thing goes against the enforced NPOV vs. official Blizzard lore policy.Baggins 04:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
So because the administrative policy does exist, its only fair that a warning exists in the most likely location it would be seen. Otherwise, the person will only get a warning after the fact, and pointed to the previous judgements on the issue. Basically this is not actually a policy change but a clarification to an already enforced policy.Baggins 04:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, most users who make edits like that never visit the NPOV page beforehand and probably don't care.   Zurr  TC 04:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, that is probably the truth...Baggins 06:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I know Wowwiki is not a democracy. However, I feel this and other wiki communities benefit when contributors are allowed input in decision- and policy-making processes. The NPOV policy was originally voted on by the community, and I feel the fact that it changed without discussion or explanation (before this post) undermines the efforts and opinions of those contributors. As for the policy itself, I do not see this as a clarification of existing policy; the scope has been narrowed and focused specifically against fan interpretations, preventing any use of the policy against other NPOV issues that may arise. If this unspoken policy has truly been in use by other administrators, I encourage them to respond in its defense. --Tyrsenus t c 06:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a right way and a wrong way of changing policies. Doing it yourself is definately a wrong way of changing it, as it undermines the basic freedom of speech principle that most wikis have. It causes anarchy rather than organization. At least bringing up a consensus or discussion would be the right way to bring it up, as people can get their say on it. Had it been talked about before the changes, we wouldn't be so upset about it, and might have approved it. Think before you act is best. --slxception (me/speak) 10:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
He wasn't substantially altering the policy, he was clarifying it. However, fair enough that a note should have been made on the talk page to explain the changes. Baggins is an admin, and this wasn't a change he just thought up.
As for whether this "narrows" the definition - the only way NPOV makes sense if it is a user ("fan") opinion that is being discussed. Surely it is obvious you can't apply NPOV to anything in-game. Kirkburn  talk  contr 11:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. Best way to treat in-game content is to show both factions point of view, it gives the broadest picture of lore. This means in-game NPC/text viewpoints, not player's opinions.Baggins 17:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of NPOV, Future race ideas has always been a hotspot for needless arguements ,but it has recently been nominated for deletion! This is important.--SWM2448 21:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Explain? Examples. Remember fan interpretations and opinions are not allowed in the article itself. Arguements always happen in talk pages.Baggins 22:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)Baggins 22:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
After reading the various comments above, I do have a few responses.
Although Baggins could have gone about it in a better, more collective way, we do have a decreed policies out-clause in our policy process. This process also explains how you would go about contesting a change made this way (basically start a revert vote). Baggins, also mentioned the changes were being made on the talk page.
As for the actual change, it seems in line with the whole idea that Blizzard ultimately determines what makes up World of Warcraft and any associated lore. Removing or altering cited statements by official Blizzard sources sounds like NPOV at least and vandalism in some cases. The only gray area would be to quote Blizzard sources in a fragmentary, out-of-context way to promote a particular perspective. However, this wouldn't change the nature of Baggins' clarification, just add to it.
Lastly, discussions about the NPOV policy should go on its discussion page. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 3:22 PM PST 23 Nov 2007
Note that he made the commentary on the talk page after editing the policy. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 03:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Clam Edit

Grouped items, is there a way to seperate them? I ask as Big-mouth Clam redirects to Clams, which then causes problems wherever I need to reference Big-mouth Clam such as on Saltwater Snapjaw and Gammerita

-- Sanderdolphin 18:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Please note here any redirects of item articles to general articles. I fixed [Big-mouth Clam] and put a tooltip. You can use it as a model for any other clams that are improperly redirected. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 12:23 PM PST 26 Nov 2007
All the clams should be good now. I even added [Soft-shelled Clam]... ;-) --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:03 PM PST 26 Nov 2007
And with that, problem solved :) Pages I edited are now showing the right tooltip, so my thanks for your speedy attention to what is otherwise a minor issue.Sanderdolphin 21:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A Documentary / MORE INFO Edit have a Concept to create A DOCUMENTARY!... about World of Warcraft. where interesting in a co operating with for this...

Here is how it works
- A Co - operating for creating the Documentary
- This should be a and Project
- We uses data from Wowwki Articles in the Documentary
- Top Contributors on the Topics we make documentarys about...
Can be Offered to Be the Voice in the Movie..
, or we can have a contest on it...
- Its many subjects we can use here is a list:
-- Creatures
-- Npcs
-- Places
-- Mounts
-- Secrets
-- Raiding
-- Expansion packs
-- And much more

But is interesting in this?

From Zizanzu , Head of
I like movies. Though, I always thought a WoWWiki Community movie would be a LOTR parody with Kirkburn sword fighting Teabingh. Oh well. The wiki IS about information, so visual aids could help. We could use a gimmik like that for publicity.--SWM2448 21:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Teabag == Goulm(sp?)... I could see this. "My presssioussssss magi" TeжubԎ Ҩ Ѡ 10:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

so i'm understanding here? that ya people love to hear more from me in the future?... I'm gonna begin this project next weekend... - --Zizanzu 13:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

As much as I love this idea, Kirkburn will probably have to run this by the Wikia folks to see if using WoWWiki in the name of the movie is okay. This effort might be seen as merely an effort to attract attention to a project using the goodwill WoWWiki has generated without it having anything directly to do with WoWWiki. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:05 PM PDT 31 Oct 2007
Aye, that is essentially the problem. We can't attach the name to something that isn't our own project without knowing exactly how it'll turn out :) Kirkburn  talk  contr 01:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Zizanzu, please don't delete other people's messages. If you do it again, you'll definitely get on the vandals list and probably get banned soon after. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 2:26 PM PDT 1 Nov 2007
I liked that post... *sniff* --SWM2448 21:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
ok I'm learned something new , but the name can be discussed - --Zizanzu 14:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

So, you moved it to the bottom. Why? Attention to it? What do you want to discuss? --SWM2448 23:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Add a new idiom Edit

Hi, I would like to know if it is possible to add a new idiom to this wiki.

I was thinking about to add some little content in Portuguese (Brazilian portuguese).

If it is not possible, there is any other way to add some translations, comments or anything like that in this idiom?

Thanks for your time. -- Shison 14:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Not too sure what you mean by "idiom" in this context but it doesn't look like there's a Portuguese wiki. You'd have to talk with Wikia about starting one. Portuguese submissions are not appropriate for the English WoWWiki, but you're more than welcome to contribute here in English. :) --Pcj (TC) 15:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a Brazilian Portuguese wiki about WoW: WoW-Bra Wiki. Seems like a good place to look or contribute. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 10:33 AM PST 27 Nov 2007
So, to have content in another language I need a new wiki...
And about the WoW-Bra Wiki, yes that is a good spot :)
thank you all for the answers. -- Shison 01:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding user pages... Edit

How do I make like those little sticker things? Such as this: {{User Level 70}}. Is there a page where there are more? If so, link please. Feel free to delete this after I get the link. Thanks :) --Mantriox/T/C 20:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

You will find a list of all of them here! This can stay for people with the same question.--SWM2448 21:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Even easier, look at WoWWiki:List of user templates. But the link SWM mentioned may list some that are not on the list page. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 6:50 PM PST 28 Nov 2007

Time to archive some Village pump threads? Edit

It's getting pretty big. I will probably start archiving Oct '07 threads that seem inactive. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:57 PM PST 29 Nov 2007

Questchain namespace? Edit

I was wondering, is there any reason I can't name an article Questchain:The Monkeys of Azeroth or something like that? Obviously not with that specific name, but the Questchain: part is important. Sometimes transclusion pages for a chain just don't make sense as a subpage for any particular quest in the chain. And sometimes chains need more said about them than just the transclusion part.

For example, this could be applied to The Missing Diplomat quest chain very easily. It could be moved to Questchain:The Missing Diplomat and include all the text it wants about the chain - which is a pretty important chain, I'm sure you'll agree - but also a <INCLUDEONLY> tag so that a chain can be transcluded into each appropriate page. Okay, so I just looked... apparently it already does that. Didn't used to, but I guess then someone already thought of that ^_^;;; The point is, you can have a standard for quest chains, where none exists now. You aren't restricted to calling the chain by the name of one of the quests, either - sometimes a chain is just known by a common name that isn't any one specific quest in the chain.

Technically, this is the creation of a new namespace, but for the most part, aside from specific namespaces like WoWWiki:, Template: and User:, the majority of namespaces are really just a portion of the article title, yes? There's no background code going on that cares if an article begins with Quest: or Server: or whatever, is there?

I apologize if this is an inappropriate place to put this, but I've never used the pump before. From what I saw above though, it seemed like a good place to start. Hekirou 12:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest using the Quest: namespace and name pages e.g. Quest:The Monkeys of Azeroth (questline) ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
We've already had this discussion before elsewhere. :) As for the namespace, it used to have one, but then, that denotes something entirely different from the article content, which it is not. The quest namespace is still here because that's just... so many changes that would have to applied to get rid of it. It would be a false-namespace, which just isn't cool.
As for what it's named now, that is the appropriate name. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 19:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
So... for notable enough quest chains, they should have an article themselves, but what about minor chains? Still stuck using subpages on the quest namespace? I guess that works. Hekirou 19:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't create any page for the minorest of chains (2-4, or so). 5 and up should be a good number to have their own chain on it. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 22:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I imagine even four quests, it would save space to do a simple transclude page, wouldn't it? Even if that's -all- the page had? The chain I'm looking at, which prompted my question in the first place, is longer and rather more significant [even if outdated], so that isn't a concern there at least. Hekirou 00:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
When you want to link to minor chains, just link to the first quest, and ensure the page has a listing of the chain. ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 10:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. That's how I set up all of the alliance/neutral quests in Dustwallow Marsh. The two major quest lines have their own article (Missing Diplomat & Shady Rest Inn) but the smaller ones (like Tethyr) only make reference to the quest chain in the Quest progression section. --User:Kaydeethree/Sig 17:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Steamwheedle Cartel Radio Help Edit

For the site Steamwheedle Cartel Radio There is a problem cause one of the site links aint working.

Not sure which one you meant, but I fixed one. You forgot "http://" in front of the URL. The other link points to an article that has never existed as best as I can tell, so there isn't much I can do about that.
Not sure why there is an article for this though, but whatever. Maybe I'm just used to the stricter rules on Wikipedia, but I would think something like this belongs in the user namespace, since it isn't really an article about Warcraft or World of Warcraft, but instead something that players are doing. Hekirou 19:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Sky moved it to Server:Steamwheedle Cartel Europe/Radio. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:47 PM PST 23 Nov 2007
Yeah, forgot to make a note about it, more because my net died than anything. :| --Sky (talk | con | wh) 22:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Template:Mob Edit

Well, I was going to come here to ask why don't we make a Template:Mob, to match Template:Loot and Template:Quest (or :Questlong), but it seems we do have such a template. So instead I'll ask: why does no one seem to use this? I've never once come across a page on this site that makes use of the template? I look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Mob and only two pages actually use the thing. Is there any reason I shouldn't start fixing pages to use this whenever I run across links to mobs? Hekirou 21:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to use it! It's a ripoff from {{NPC}}, which would be the only concern, but other than that, go ahead. I wouldn't go hunting down pages which have links to mobs not using it, but if you stumble across it, go right on ahead. --Sky (talk | con | wh) 21:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Heh, I could be here all year if I actively hunted down pages to add it to, but it's definitely something I'd like to add when I'm doing something with a page that mentions a mob to begin with. Hekirou 21:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm the one who ripped off {{NPC}} and made a {{Mob}} as a mostly copy. The reason you don't see it around much is that it isn't that old (made Nov 7, 2007). I made it because, I don't subscribe to the idea that a mob is just a nasty NPC. Also, mobs really don't have a faction (in terms of Alliance vs. Horde), so it saves a step to use the mob template. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 1:52 PM PST 23 Nov 2007
Well, seeing as how I only found the template because I thought about requesting we make one, it's safe to say I agree :D Mobs and NPCs are similar, but definitely not the same, and deserve their own templates. I'll go ahead and start using it whenever it seems appropriate. Hekirou 14:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I recently added the ability to add react options (H = hostile, N = neutral, F = friendly) to the {{mob}} template, but I'd like to make it faction (Alliance/Horde) specific. Eventually it would also be nice to add U = unfriendly. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 12:27 PM PST 26 Nov 2007

Fair Use Issues Edit

Note the discusison below goes beyond just paraphrasing and copying material from the RPG, and can be applied to novels, the games, manuals, mangas, the TCG, etc. Keep that in mind when adding to the discussionBaggins 23:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It has come to light on the Scarlet Crusade discussion that many of our articles cite the RPG books at length. I realize that perhaps a small number of us play the RPG, and consequently the extent to which the books have been quoted may have gone largely unnoticed. Having borrowed several of the books, I have discovered that many of the citations are actually significant excerpts of text copied verbatim. As I understand it, Wowwiki's copyright policy (specifically, the fair use policy) allows for a limited amount of quotes to be added to the wiki, not entire sections (or pages) of text as currently occurs in a number of articles:

Fair use considerations of particular relevance to this site include:

  • The source of the material must be acknowledged.
  • The amount of the original copied. The less, the better.
  • The purpose of the copying. If we reproduce some of Blizzard's ideas as a guide to their games and books, that is more likely to be considered a valid purpose than if we included content which could serve as alternatives to the games and books.

(This is the policy as it appeared before Nov. 1. It has since been modified.)

Furthermore, much of the copied text doesn't appear in quotes or indented, leading the reader to believe that it is an original writing simply citing sources (example), another reason why this has gone under the radar. A citation is not a free license to post copyrighted material. It should be noted that simply placing all of the text in quotes would still not be in total compliance with our policy:

In order to be considered fair use of copyrighted material on WoWWiki, all of the following must be met (...) Where direct quotes are used, special care is required. Note that closely paraphrasing Blizzard's text to avoid direct quotation would be plagiarism.

  • Quotes must be clearly marked as quotes, using quotation marks or the element.
  • Quotes must be used sparingly, and be as brief as possible.
  • Quotes must be offered in support of a claim. Do not reproduce Blizzard's text to fill in the substantive content of an article.

In order to better adhere to our own policies and the law, it is obvious the amount of quoted material on Wowwiki needs to be severely diminished. Although the most obvious offenses are direct quotes from the books, paraphrased RPG material is also bound by fair use law in the United States.

I initially brought up this issue on the Scarlet Crusade discussion, but it is apparent this is not an isolated incident specific to that page. Therefore I am posting here to inform the greater community about a larger issue and to create discussion about how we can cite such material without violating our own policies and copyright laws. This will undoubtedly include a discussion of what constitutes a "good" citation, as well as how to use material without paraphrasing and infringing on copyrights, which I have found is not covered in much depth on Wowwiki. I am not suggesting we eliminate the RPG books as a source. It is possible to cite the books in a way that is considered "fair use" and complies with our policies. I suggest referring to Wikipedia's articles on citations, how to cite, and paraphrasing, and that we establish how to use these sources properly.

Although Blizzard owns the copyrights of the books, reproduction of the material is still forbidden without written permission of the publisher, White Wolf Publishing. The books do have an Open Game License that allows some material to be freely distributed, but this doesn't include any of the text, or other "elements of the Warcraft setting." Unless we get permission from Blizzard and White Wolf, we can't reproduce or use material unless a sufficiently small amount allowed by fair use law.

I know the changes I'm suggesting are not easy. There is a fine line between fair use and misuse that has obviously been crossed in a number of articles that quote the books, while others quote or paraphrase less extensively and should be closely examined. As a side note, Wowwiki has "a focus on World of Warcraft" that is not evident on pages with a large percentage of material from the RPG.

Here's a small sample of articles that extensively quote verbatim, or which the entire article is straight from the RPG books. I haven't started looking for paraphrasing articles yet. Before it's brought up, this is not intended to be a discussion of retcons or conflicting lore between WoW and the RPG.

--Tyrsenus t c 21:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I know that I took great care to ensure that the articles on Al'Akir and Neptulos were not copied verbatim. Perhaps these should be the standard?

Perhaps it should be noted that many of these articles do not have previous lore on them, anywhere. You would not be able to find the "lore" located on Al'Akir or Neptulos, except in miniature patches sprinkled here and there in a one or two quests in the entirety of the World. Articles such as "Arcanist" are much the same. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is easier to just copy text instead of (re)writing it on your own ;) However, you're right.
One spontaneous idea I'm having is to tag affected pages, e.g. by a category or one of those template thingies, like "{{needsparaphrasing}}", so that motivated users can paraphrase them. :) ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 17:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a {{fair use}} tag. --Tyrsenus t c 14:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah, marvellous. ~ IconSmall Druidŋɑϑ 07:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I've gone through this article, Scarlet Crusade, sentence by sentence, alongside the RPG books, and found the following sections were lifted directly from the books:

Those sections were taken verbatim from LoC and the RPG book. I don't have access to the Monster Guide, so I haven't checked those references yet.

I'm not a copyright expert, but I would say this goes far beyond the protections of fair use law, not to mention a probable violation of Wowwiki's fair use policy:

Fair use considerations of particular relevance to this site include: 1. The source of the material must be acknowledged. 2. The amount of the original copied. The less, the better. 3. The purpose of the copying. If we reproduce some of Blizzard's ideas as a guide to their games and books, that is more likely to be considered a valid purpose than if we included content which could serve as alternatives to the games and books.

As such, it would be beneficial to remove (or severely limit) the amount of quoted material (some is not very well written to begin with). Citations do not give us a free license to copy text verbatim. --Tyrsenus t c 05:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the continuity errors brought up by throwing all these articles in here. But that has already been discussed above, with no result.
In my opinion, it would be the best solution to restore the article as it was before Baggins has quoted entiry books into it, since
a) it had more continuity and wasn't contradicting itself on so many occasions
b) it was easier to read, as it's passages were attuned to each other - unlike the sourcebook citation chunks
But knowing that any edit I make will be reverted by Baggins anyways I'll leave this to other people. --Tulon 05:20, 2 November 2007
I'm aware the continuity issues have been discussed, with much ado and few results to my dismay. This article needs major work, fair use aside, but a more pressing issue is compliance with the law. Knowing certain individuals' itchy revert finger, I will also leave the appropriate changes to a higher authority for the time being. --Tyrsenus t c 05:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Generally speaking Wowwiki has followed a different format than other wikipedias, it uses direct quotes more often than it does paraphrases to avoid fan opinion or interpration from being inserted into articles. See Warcraft Universe for a handful of links to articles directly quoted from other source material, including manuals.
In anycase if those sections are removed, no references should be made to them, if it involves altering the information from what was originally told in the book, or its original intent. For example any information covering the history involving the male Abbendis rather than a female abbendis, should not be edited to apply "fan fixes" to turn him into the female. Its not our job to "fix" possible errors if they exist, or reinterpret material, but rather show that the differences exist.
This is to avoid giving a false representation of what a source's intent is, and to chronicle the broad publishing history, additions and changes to lore. Doing otherwise is also against other Wowwiki policies, including bookkeeping.
BTW, alot of the material was already in the article previously, before I edited, almost verbatim with a few minor edits, and including "fan reinterpretation" (changing the original context), but no citations. "Fan reinterpretations" and "lack of citations" are not allowed. Fan reinterpretation should be left out of articles or limited to speculation sections only.Baggins 06:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue at hand is a legal one, not about retcons or fanfixes; please don't construe the argument that way. Just because Wowwiki has a different format than other wikis, or because other pages quote directly from source material, or because "it was there before" does not make it legal or right under fair use law or Wowwiki policy. This page needs to change. --Tyrsenus t c 14:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you understand, I said it its alright to paraphrase it. Just make sure that each paraphrase stays in context of the original source, and doesn't change anything of the originals source's intent, and also make sure it has "citations". Instead of complaining get to work on paraphrasing the articles. I've just given you the what not to do as far as formating the material, and interpretation is concerned.Baggins 16:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Aye, the number of direct quotes needs to be cut down on this and other pages. {{cleanup}} tags would probably be a good way of flagging offending pages. As for the side discussion about contradictions - it is not the wiki's job to reconcile these issues. Kirkburn  talk  contr 16:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Mind you, fair use is a very tricky subject, even paraphrasing material if it paraphrases substantial amount of the original content or subject (more than 10-20%), can be viewed as against fair use, in just the same way that direct quotes can be (especially for works of fiction)[5][6]. On the other hand, copying entire sections or paraphrasing isn't always against fair use. Infact even a paraphrase that is short, but covers the "heart" of the work may be considered against fair use. It depends on many factors. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand the nitty gritty on the issue.Baggins 16:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Tyrsenus already cited WoWwiki's fair use policy above. Note the underlined parts. --Tulon 20:50, 2 November 2007
Yes, I was pointing out that fair use is even trickier than stub of info in WoWWiki (its explaination is actually pretty limited). By law articles paraphrasing fictional material apparently needs to be less than 10%. Anything more than that especially reaching 20% may be pushing the boundaries of fair use and breaking the law. Infact even just a small sentence or paragraph can be breaking the law if it covers the "heart" of the material. Another part of the fair use laws states that material can only be used if it is used to critique or review the original source rather than be a replacement to original source. Considering that many of these types of articles do not allow for critiquing or reviewing (which is against wikipedia's NPOV clause), then by law it would be breaking fair use.
Mind you this goes back to a long time arguement whether or not wikipedia in general is actually truly following fair use and copyright laws, or is source of plagiarism and bends the actual fair use clauses. It has at least two strikes against it, it doesn't allow original research, and it it doesn't allow criticism or reviews.
Additionally by law, one can not use photographs or artwork from another source unless one obtains permission by the original owner, to use the entire picture (which is viewed as using a "substantial amount of original content") is actually breaking the true fair use laws. The law may or may not allow for small portions of a photo or artwork to be used as long as it isn't the entire source or the theme. However according to research I've done today, its probably still breaking copyright.
As I said before fair use is a very very tricky matter. There are definitely differing views on the matter.Baggins 01:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It has also been brought to my attention that WoWWiki quotes game quest text, and in-game books 100% of the material and verbatim. By actual fair use and copyright laws this is illegal. Hmm, the Corrupted Ashbringer/Scarlet Monastery Event article, is also contains 100% of the text, and is quoted verbatim. That also goes against fair use, and will need to be paraphrased to less than 10%.Baggins 03:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Are you argueing now that your edits should be left untouched because the rest of WoWwiki is trespassing fair use copyright laws, anyways? I'm sorry if I may be misjudging your statement, but it does sound like it.
Either way, the debate concerning legal issues with WoWwiki or other wikis in general should probably be held elsewhere. This page is for discussions regarding the Scarlet Crusade article, which is apparently not in line with WoWwiki's fair use policy. --Tulon 04:00, 3 November 2007
Actually, Blizzard apparently gave permission for the in-game books, which are reproduced on their website, to be used on fansites (as stated on WW:COPYRIGHT and their website) those wouldn't violate fair use, even if they are otherwise in poor taste. I believe that since you can also download WoW from their site (trial version, which is full version) this also includes quest and other in-game text. Just the printed material is at question. --Pcj (TC) 04:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Nah, its to discuss the fact that if we are going to overhaul pages that may be viewed as against fair use, we need to do it to all pages that go against fair use, and we need to follow the law as best as possible (infact the link to the writer's handbook is now part of the WoWWiki policy page in order to explain to people what needs to be done). It has to be all or nothing, no singling out certain pages. We need to avoid hypocrisy on the issue. Fair use is fair use no matter what page its on.Baggins 04:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Pcj, the main thing about that legal bit is that "you" have the right to download a copy, and use it on your machine, it doesn't say you can give it out to others.Baggins 04:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
"By law articles paraphrasing fictional material apparently needs to be less than 10%." Show me which law says that it needs to be less than 10%. Not to suggest that we should paraphrase, but it's odd to quantify paraphrasing that way unless you're counting the number of same words. --Tyrsenus t c 18:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Read the article from Writer's Digest, I gave the links above. It was written by the attorney Howard G. Zaharoff [7]]. He is a lawyer that deals with copyright and intellectual property. I'm not a laywer, neither of you. At least he is citeable, and a bit more credible than either of us, as it is his job.
The issue isn't just paraphrases but extent of which content is borrowed paraphrased or directly quoted. Paraphrasing an entire work, even if it is no longer the original text, is still plagiarism and can be outside of fair use.
Mind you during my research I found conflicting interpretations, some say that less than 10% of an entire work (I.E the entire book) others its less than 10% of any section in a book (for example copying an 100% of poem which may be less than 1% of a book, may be against copyright and fair use). Like most laws the way courts interpret the law can vary from case to case. Laws are not always explicit so courts interpret what the law says on case by case basis. Again read the above article for clarification. Baggins 19:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is a selection of quotes from the article that relates to this discussion;

Quoting fiction for purposes of criticism or review is generally found to be fair use, provided the amount taken is reasonable. Do remember there is a wider scope for using factual and representational works; less scope for using fanciful and imaginative works... Ideas, themes and facts are not copyrighted. (However, "events" in a fictional work are not "facts"—as the publishers of The Seinfeld Aptitude Test learned when a court found its "643 trivia questions and answers about the events and characters depicted in Seinfeld" not a fair use.) Quote or closely paraphrase as little as possible to make your point: under 10 percent is best; above 20 percent is high risk (though a recent case allowed that, where mainly facts were copied). Avoid using the “heart” of the original, what most people would buy the work to read. With rulings ranging from under 1% is not fair use, to 100% can be fair use, it’s impossible to provide percentage guidelines that always work. Keep the borrowed portion as insignificant as possible a part of your new work, thus: Contribute significant original material of your own. Where possible, transform the character of the original, by adding new expression, meanings or messages. no magical percentage (e.g., 10%) or number (e.g., 250 words) that is always, under all circumstances, okay. Still, rarely should borrowing a couplet from a long poem or song for noncompetitive purposes, or 250 non-essential words from a book-length work, be deemed infringing.

-Baggins 19:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added quotes to the sections missing them in compliance with WW:COPYRIGHT, and to make it obvious to others which sections are from the RPG. More work is needed to diminish and/or replace the quoted material; I do not currently have the time to it myself, and I fear my efforts will be wasted based on this article's past history of reverts. If someone wants to take up the task, I recommend Purdue's guide on how to paraphrase properly.[8] --Tyrsenus t c 17:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You may want to add blockquotes rather than quotation marks. As they make it a bit easier to distinguish between paragraphs, as there are no indent.Baggins 17:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've merged the fair use discussions, so that the discussion can continue in one place. Again I remind that its an issue that goes beyond "RPG", it effects any source where material can be derived, novels, games, manuals, etc.Baggins 23:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've added additional explanation to fair use #2, [use], that should clarify things a bit. A small sentence or paraphgraph should not be an issue within fair use, as long as it is properly cited. However yes paraphrasing or copying more than 10% of an entire article/quest/speech/event within a source would probably go against fair use.23:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should make a tag/template specifically to identify these problems. Perhaps, {{fairuse}} or {{rewrite}}? The {{cleanup}} tag is not specific enough. --Gengar orange 22x22 Fandyllic (talk · contr) 12:28 PM PST 13 Nov 2007
Try {{fair use}}. --Pcj (TC) 20:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I created the {{fair use}} the moment people were trying to use cleanup tag for fair use issues.Baggins 18:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

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